Why can't other pros break like Shaw and Shane?

[Deleted member 66136]

Breaking should be important, just not the number one factor separating pros. Do you need to be a long driver in golf to compete? (no) And in pool you also need to be able to read the rack (some say cheat the rack?). Should that be a requirement of a top player? I'd rather having great shots after the break deciding the winner, rather than just one shot. Of course the top players break AND shoot well. But right now for "pros", they are playing for scraps if they do not have an amazing break and rack knowledge.

The solution is easy, make the game harder. One pocket or 15 ball rotation. Small pockets, slower cloth, etc. Or better rules, like mandatory push out.

If you really think making the game harder will be boring or not enough racks run. Then try watching the US open bar table finals with magic rack. So boring. Snooker is insanely hard and look how its done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDsAzH7Ru9k

 

[Bank it]

Breaking should be important, just not the number one factor separating pros. Do you need to be a long driver in golf to compete? (no) And in pool you also need to be able to read the rack (some say cheat the rack?). Should that be a requirement of a top player? I'd rather having great shots after the break deciding the winner, rather than just one shot. Of course the top players break AND shoot well. But right now for "pros", they are playing for scraps if they do not have an amazing break and rack knowledge.



The solution is easy, make the game harder. One pocket or 15 ball rotation. Small pockets, slower cloth, etc. Or better rules, like mandatory push out.



If you really think making the game harder will be boring or not enough racks run. Then try watching the US open bar table finals with magic rack. So boring. Snooker is insanely hard and look how its done.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDsAzH7Ru9k

Then go play snooker

 

[realkingcobra]

Breaking should be important, just not the number one factor separating pros. Do you need to be a long driver in golf to compete? (no) And in pool you also need to be able to read the rack (some say cheat the rack?). Should that be a requirement of a top player? I'd rather having great shots after the break deciding the winner, rather than just one shot. Of course the top players break AND shoot well. But right now for "pros", they are playing for scraps if they do not have an amazing break and rack knowledge.

The solution is easy, make the game harder. One pocket or 15 ball rotation. Small pockets, slower cloth, etc. Or better rules, like mandatory push out.

If you really think making the game harder will be boring or not enough racks run. Then try watching the US open bar table finals with magic rack. So boring. Snooker is insanely hard and look how its done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDsAzH7Ru9k

People like you never cease to amaze me, you're so concerned about making pool so hard to win at....for your OWN personal entertainment.....that you miss out on the FACT that AMERICAN pool players no longer OWN this sport, the game has gone world wide....and left the American players behind....why in the hell do YOU think that is? As it is, if pool don't at some point in time follow Golf's lead....and identify the 128 TOP pros in the world to represent this sport to sponsors on a world wide recognition basis....you won't HAVE and pool entertainment to complain about watching....your complaint then will be....WHAT HAPPENED TO POOL IN AMERICA!!!

 

[KRJ]

My only comment is the break needs to be less of the game. There's got to be a way to minimize it somehow. I give credit to Shane and other good breakers for having a good breaks, I just don't give a crap about it as a skill is all and I don't think the games we play should reward such a plebeian skill so heavily.

LOL. Yeah, they should stop allowing guys to play terrific safeties too. I mean, they are not sinking a ball, they are just ducking and hidings and for that they get rewarded.
I'll take the skill as best lock up artist ever, over best breaker any day. But, if I could have both, I'd take it !!!!!

 

[Ak Guy]

Stop it all........

We have to fundamentally change 9 Ball. Who does that sound like?

No more playing on 9' tables, it is to hard compared to 7' tables

Only break in the box, other wise it ain't fair if some one finds the "sweet spot".

No more winner breaks, the best breaker might win.

Only alternate breaks, the best breaker always strings racks together.

Rack the 9 on the spot. Gottta stop those good breakers some how, besides it helped Team Europe win Mosconi Cups.

Lets call the game, "Basterdized 9 Ball", cause it ain't 9 Ball unless it is good old American winner breaks from any where in the kitchen 9 Ball, and leave the 1 ball on the spot where it belongs.

If you want some thing else then play some thing else, just don't change it and think it is good old American 9 ball.

Crap, you would think every pool playing knuckle head in America is stringing racks together because of their world class breaking skill. Maybe in your pool room........

BORING!!! Lets just cut one of their damn fingers off too for craps sake........

 

[sjm]

We have to fundamentally change 9 Ball. Who does that sound like?

No more playing on 9' tables, it is to hard compared to 7' tables

Only break in the box, other wise it ain't fair if some one finds the "sweet spot".

No more winner breaks, the best breaker might win.

Only alternate breaks, the best breaker always strings racks together.

Rack the 9 on the spot. Gottta stop those good breakers some how, besides it helped Team Europe win Mosconi Cups.

Lets call the game, "Basterdized 9 Ball", cause it ain't 9 Ball unless it is good old American winner breaks from any where in the kitchen 9 Ball, and leave the 1 ball on the spot where it belongs.

If you want some thing else then play some thing else, just don't change it and think it is good old American 9 ball.

Crap, you would think every pool playing knuckle head in America is stringing racks together because of their world class breaking skill. Maybe in your pool room........

BORING!!! Lets just cut one of their damn fingers off too for craps sake........

Yes, no need to make playing conditions tougher as the skills of professionals trend upward.

Of course, a successful sport like golf gets it. As skills and equipment moved forward, golf courses got longer. The typical course setup is about 400 yards longer than it was fifteen years ago. Had they stuck with the shorter courses of yesteryear, it would have largely eliminated fairway wood/metal and mid-iron play on all but the par fives, making tournament golf a less comprehensive test of golfing skills. Unless pool constantly adjusts to the changing skills of the players and equipment, it will remind us why it still sits in the stone age.

 

[realkingcobra]

Yes, no need to make playing conditions tougher as the skills of professionals trend upward.

Of course, a successful sport like golf gets it. As skills and equipment moved forward, golf courses got longer. The typical course setup is about 400 yards longer than it was fifteen years ago. Had they stuck with the shorter courses of yesteryear, it would have largely eliminated fairway wood/metal and mid-iron play on all but the par fives, making tournament golf a less comprehensive test of golfing skills. Unless pool constantly adjusts to the changing skills of the players and equipment, it will remind us why it still sits in the stone age.

Then extend races to say for example....to 21, no double elimination format, 3 hour match time limit, 10 ahead is a mercy win.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

I for one am totally against changing ANYTHING about 9 ball. If the best of the pros have mastered it, then play 10 ball instead.

Trying to play 9 ball with all of the silly breaking rules is ridiculous. IMO


_______

 

[Bob Jewett]

... That's been happening with the break in 9 ball for 15 years now. Leave it the freak alone. ....

I think it's too late to leave it alone. The players know too much. How would you handle the break that doesn't have major problems?

 

[Bank it]

I think it's too late to leave it alone. The players know too much. How would you handle the break that doesn't have major problems?

Your correct Bob in that they know too much, Tucker sealed that fate with his book spilling secrets only known by a select few regarding a hard rack.

Also the advent of the Original Sardo rack & Corey's soft break showed what can be done with a perfect rack that it or templates give.

So what to do? I'd go to Outsvilles ACCURACK, 1 on the spot, break box, winner breaks, combo of pocketed balls and balls past side pockets being 3 in number to disallow the bird break & let it eat, may the best gunslinger win, that's what 9 ball is meant to be anyway.

I like the dynamic that was pool before the alternate break, which is controlling the table, applying heat & see if your opponent and yourself have the mettle to be able to respond if & when you get out of the chair, may the best man win. The only way to use a hard rack anymore is to have a neutral racker as not all have the honor to give their opponent a good rack & that creates too many problems.

 

[pooladdict]

Both 9b and 10b break, they're noticeable much better than the majority.

Guys like Alex and Dennis Orcollo are just as good after the break, but its the break that have them a hair behind Shaw and Shane.

People always talk about how much Shane practices his break, but I imagine guys like Dennis put up a lot of hours working on his break too.

Shaw's successful break percentage 21% higher than the field.

I don't want to go all Atlarge on you, but actually Shaw's break is 37,5% higher than the field. He is 21%-points better though

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

I personally don't care what rules are made or changed for the 'Pros'.
But making amateurs play by the same rules is counter productive.
9 ball is/was a great shotmaking and strategic game in 2 foul pushout for years.
It doesn't lend itself to tournaments as well as 1 foul ( which is why 1 foul was invented
around 69'-71' ).
By the 1980's, 1 foul had become the law of the land.
It was never meant to be used in anything but tourneys.
My point is, don't saddle the pool playing world with rules and equipment
changes that are meant for the best players in the world.
When I bet my cash, I don't 'break from the box', rack the 9 on the spot',
have 3 balls past anywhere', or any of those rules dont apply to the
majority of pool players in rooms around the country.
Do what you want with the 'pros', leave 'us' alone.

I know, golf didn't bifurcate its rules, and most of the 20-40 million golfers
have NOT given up their long putters or stopped using the 'hinge' putting method.
They have , for the most part, kept their 'square grove ' irons also.
Golf made a mistake, please don't do it to pool any longer.

 

[CreeDo]

I think it's too late to leave it alone. The players know too much. How would you handle the break that doesn't have major problems?

Didn't mosconi cup already solve this problem?

9 on the spot, neutral racker... with skill the players will make a ball but it's not 90%, it's more like 75%.
That adds enough randomness to be entertaining without making it a coin flip.
And the 1 ball drops so no more easy, hanging 1 ball to start.

Finally, neutral rackers work great for that event and I STILL don't buy
that promoters can't get volunteers for free or for cheap.

 

[gpeezy]

Successful breakers (that includes soft break masters like Corey) practice them for hours. Just like the masters of jump shots practice them. Not all pros practice the same things. SVB has been seen spending as much as 3 hours straight doing nothing but breaking...

I was in vegas years ago and I was practicing late night, early morning and Shane was a few tables away. I practiced for probably 2.5 hours. He broke the balls over and over the entire time.

 

[Scott Lee]

Which just shows how little you know about pool. NOBODY, in any game, makes a ball on the break anywhere near those numbers, EVER. Jason Shaw's percentage is for this one tournament. As recorded, the other players were closer to 50+%...which is the norm overall...pros make a ball or more about 50% of the time, on average. That means some will be lower percentage, and some will be higher. Nobody has ever been in the "high 90's"...and never will.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Is that breaking from the box? Breaking from the rail I would expect "successful breaks" to be in the high 90's for 9 ball.

 

[realkingcobra]

I don't get what is so hard to understand about racking and breaking, and how to effectively change it. Players like Shane, Cory, Jason if allowed to rack for themselves know where to place key balls in the rack as to make sure they have the highest probability of being open for play after the break. That ALSO works against the breaker IF the pattern of the balls is preset and all racks have to be racked accordingly. Stopping the breaker from making a ball on the break is NOT the problem. The PROBLEM is connecting the dots to run out AFTER the break. Control the pattern of the rack, and you effectively impact the run out. Does that mean no one can run a rack out, NO, that is still going to happen to a degree, just not as much, if using a triangle instead of a rack AID like the magic rack or anything like it. Magic racks stop the balls from sitting in divits which form in the cloth over time from the balls always being racked in the same place....and they effect the break pattern, and that effect is being eliminated by using a rack that the balls actually sit up above the cloth on. So, once again, no racking aids and pattern the balls to be racked the exact same for every player, before the break of every game. It don't matter where the cue ball is, or at what speed the cue ball is traveling when it hits the one ball. Damn, all ANYONE has to study is what rack PATTERN DON'T WORK for an easy layout AFTER the break....and there's your answer to racking and running out. But, there's absolutely nothiing wrung or broken if a player can still break and run out afterwards if the player earns the run.

 

[Deleted member 66136]

People like you never cease to amaze me, you're so concerned about making pool so hard to win at....for your OWN personal entertainment.....that you miss out on the FACT that AMERICAN pool players no longer OWN this sport, the game has gone world wide....and left the American players behind....why in the hell do YOU think that is? As it is, if pool don't at some point in time follow Golf's lead....and identify the 128 TOP pros in the world to represent this sport to sponsors on a world wide recognition basis....you won't HAVE and pool entertainment to complain about watching....your complaint then will be....WHAT HAPPENED TO POOL IN AMERICA!!!

You seem to have a lot of anger? why? Is this thread about american pool...no

I play pool at a pretty decent level, not quite pro. Its not just for my entertainment. It is too bad that pool has evolved to the point where the break shot is a trick shot. In fact one of my strengths as a player is breaking and racking the balls well and i would give up my advantage for a better game or rule set to help the game long term.

 

[realkingcobra]

You seem to have a lot of anger? why? Is this thread about american pool...no

I play pool at a pretty decent level, not quite pro. Its not just for my entertainment. It is too bad that pool has evolved to the point where the break shot is a trick shot. In fact one of my strengths as a player is breaking and racking the balls well and i would give up my advantage for a better game or rule set to help the game long term.

Players like you are the reason so many rules have been changed in 9 & 10 ball. What you just agreed to in what you said was the same thing everyone else has complained about....take away the break and make the game more fair for all of us that can't compete with all of those who've mastered it. Shorten the races to a race you stand a chance in, and let me use a jump cue because I don't kick as well as the best pros do.

My complaint is that there is no Pro level only tournaments whereas ONLY Pros can compete on an equal basis...ALL skills mastered to be able to compete. Lots of tournaments are held that exclude Pros, or handicap them the moment they want to compete, but NO tournaments are ever held that say....if you're NOT good enough to play...don't bother signing up.

Tournament matches need to be extended to at least a single elimination race to 21 with a 3 hour time limit, and a early win knock out reward for posting a 10 game lead on your opponent as to NOT bore the viewers.

If you feel you have a chance to win in a race.to 7 or 9, but know you have NO chance in a race to 21, that's because you DON'T BELONG with the elite players.

 

[Bank it]

You seem to have a lot of anger? why? Is this thread about american pool...no



I play pool at a pretty decent level, not quite pro. Its not just for my entertainment. It is too bad that pool has evolved to the point where the break shot is a trick shot. In fact one of my strengths as a player is breaking and racking the balls well and i would give up my advantage for a better game or rule set to help the game long term.

Well, how does changing the game or rule set "help" the game? This topic infuriates me because it's already happened & never should have.

This is pretty simple, if you like a game, then you play it. If you don't like it, or don't play it well enough, in "ALL" of its facets to where you still like to play it, then don't play. What isn't logical is to try to change it to something you do like or that suits "YOUR" shortcomings & that's what happened in 9 ball. They've tried to take a run & gun gamblers game & turn it into something more refined that it never was nor should be.

 

[Poolmanis]

Your correct Bob in that they know too much, Tucker sealed that fate with his book spilling secrets only known by a select few regarding a hard rack.

Also the advent of the Original Sardo rack & Corey's soft break showed what can be done with a perfect rack that it or templates give.

So what to do? I'd go to Outsvilles ACCURACK, 1 on the spot, break box, winner breaks, combo of pocketed balls and balls past side pockets being 3 in number to disallow the bird break & let it eat, may the best gunslinger win, that's what 9 ball is meant to be anyway.

I like the dynamic that was pool before the alternate break, which is controlling the table, applying heat & see if your opponent and yourself have the mettle to be able to respond if & when you get out of the chair, may the best man win. The only way to use a hard rack anymore is to have a neutral racker as not all have the honor to give their opponent a good rack & that creates too many problems.

Nice post.