Was Dennis Orcollo right by calling this foul?

Kris_b1104

Kris_b1104

House Pro in my own home.
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https://youtu.be/BiMC4hnTpkw

At the 13:25 mark, Kun-Lin Wu is bridging over the 8 ball and Dennis calls a foul on him even though a ref is present. The ref comes over and gives Dennis ball in hand. Isn't the shooter always right if a ref doesn't make a call? It's very hard to tell if his cue touched the 8 ball. I'm assuming it must have since Kun-Lin didn't deny it.
 
Ref. should have positioned himself better,IMO. Dennis had direct line to shot. I agree that ref. should do the calling but this guy was not well placed to see it.
 
Kris_b1104 said:
https://youtu.be/BiMC4hnTpkw

At the 13:25 mark, Kun-Lin Wu is bridging over the 8 ball and Dennis calls a foul on him even though a ref is present. The ref comes over and gives Dennis ball in hand. Isn't the shooter always right if a ref doesn't make a call? It's very hard to tell if his cue touched the 8 ball. I'm assuming it must have since Kun-Lin didn't deny it.
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You can add time specific links on youtube.
https://youtu.be/BiMC4hnTpkw?t=13m25s

I think all fouls should be taken out...just place the balls back in their spots...opponents choice. I never call them myself...makes a player look desperate imo...kinda sucky.

BUT as it is a rule...the ball did move so he had every right to call it.
 
Kris_b1104 said:
https://youtu.be/BiMC4hnTpkw

At the 13:25 mark, Kun-Lin Wu is bridging over the 8 ball and Dennis calls a foul on him even though a ref is present. The ref comes over and gives Dennis ball in hand. Isn't the shooter always right if a ref doesn't make a call? It's very hard to tell if his cue touched the 8 ball. I'm assuming it must have since Kun-Lin didn't deny it.
Click to expand...

Is there anything that leads you to believe the referee didn't see it and call it himself? The ref is out of the frame when the foul occurs. He seemed to be right on it.


Freddie
 
Easy for us amateurs to be so fairplay. But if winning games would be my job, I would like to be god damn good at it. This includes taking freeballs with every opportunity.

Also, from the shooting player's POV, he should've defended himself if he didn't fault.
 
Cornerman said:
Is there anything that leads you to believe the referee didn't see it and call it himself? The ref is out of the frame when the foul occurs. He seemed to be right on it.


Freddie
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Looks like ref. didn't move until Dennis points/speaks. It is close though.
 
I think if the ref didn't see it or was out of position, the shooter keeps shooting.
If we start allowing the players to call the fouls , a whole new can of worms will open.
 
Poolplayer2016 said:
You can add time specific links on youtube.
https://youtu.be/BiMC4hnTpkw?t=13m25s

I think all fouls should be taken out...just place the balls back in their spots...opponents choice. I never call them myself...makes a player look desperate imo...kinda sucky.

BUT as it is a rule...the ball did move so he had every right to call it.
Click to expand...



What happens when players argue over where exactly the touched ball was? As you know, in pool, centimeters can make a huge difference. The victim could lie and place the ball in an advantageous spot to solve a problem even ball in hand couldn't solve. Then the shooter will argue their face off about it and waste time. Easier to just penalize the offender with ball in hand and lost of turn. When I switched to Bca from APA I had no problem learning not to touch other balls, so pros should be even better at it


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
On this specific shot the ref. SHOULD have gotten himself to where he could stare-down this shot. When cue is this close to the cueball its up to ref. to be able to see it. It still looks to me like he did nothing until DO reacts to the foul.
 
Yes, he was correct pointing out a foul. The ref can decide then if he agrees.

Pretty sure all three of them knew he fouled. This is not some friendly tournament. This is how they make a living and if the rules call for all ball fouls, any brief contact from a cue, hand, shirt, hair etc. is a foul and will get called.
 
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Three things:

1. Orcollo has some mighty sharp eyes, because I can't see the 8-ball move. Of course, it's possible to touch the 8-ball without having it move, so maybe that's what happened, but that still requires some sharp eyes.

2. The ref was indeed right there watching, so I've got to think that he actually made the call, not Orcollo (I doubt very much that if the ref didn't see a foul that he would call a foul just because Orcollo claimed his opponent touched the 8).

3. Orcollo's opponent didn't protest the call, and both the ref and Orcollo claimed he touched the 8, so I think it's reasonable to conclude that he did.
 
PoolBum said:
... Orcollo's opponent didn't protest the call, and both the ref and Orcollo claimed he touched the 8, so I think it's reasonable to conclude that he did.
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This is the crux of the matter. Had shooter disagreed with Orcullo, the ref would have had to make the call ... but if the ref was snoozing (see Strickland vs Shaw in the World 14.1 semifinals last summer), the call goes to the shooter.
 
The ref was out of position. He needed to be where he could see the cue and the eight ball clearly. Dennis is absolutely right to call foul if in fact his opponent touched the eight ball. The fact that the opponent said nothing would indicate he was aware that he fouled.

This only points out the lack of good referees there are. Even on televised matches I've seen supposedly competent refs on the wrong side (or end) of the table, while watching a shot for a close hit. I kind of cringe thinking what if it's too close for him to make the correct call. I've witnessed some really bad calls/decisions by supposedly (again I use that word) good referees. Sometimes I'm working on the crew with them and just have to bite my tongue since I'm not working that match. Personally I've met about three or four really good refs in my lifetime in pool. I could name them all on one hand. :smile:
 
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EDIT: After more reviews the foul IS made just before Dennis raises his hand.
 
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Kris_b1104 said:
https://youtu.be/BiMC4hnTpkw

At the 13:25 mark, Kun-Lin Wu is bridging over the 8 ball and Dennis calls a foul on him even though a ref is present. The ref comes over and gives Dennis ball in hand. Isn't the shooter always right if a ref doesn't make a call? It's very hard to tell if his cue touched the 8 ball. I'm assuming it must have since Kun-Lin didn't deny it.
Click to expand...

Why would he be wrong? The ref gets his pay or his kicks or carries-out his civic duty regardless of who wins. Dennis is playing for his lunch.
 
garczar said:
Ref. should have positioned himself better,IMO. Dennis had direct line to shot. I agree that ref. should do the calling but this guy was not well placed to see it.
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It looked to me like the ref was positioned well. Where would have been better?

It also seems to me that the ref was taking action before any prompting by Dennis.

But usually the seated player should not call a foul while the other player is in the act of shooting. The seated player might be mistaken and the interruption could cause a flubbed shot. The time to protest is either before or after the player is stroking the shot.
 
Bob Jewett said:
It looked to me like the ref was positioned well. Where would have been better?

It also seems to me that the ref was taking action before any prompting by Dennis.

But usually the seated player should not call a foul while the other player is in the act of shooting. The seated player might be mistaken and the interruption could cause a flubbed shot. The time to protest is either before or after the player is stroking the shot.
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100% agree Bob!..Sorry Jay, but I consider it a cheap move, on Dennis' part!..However,
he may have reacted before he gave it much thought! (that still don't make it right) :(
 
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He sure wasn't feeling it the rest of the match, He needed to call several more to have a chance at winning.

All said, it was a foul, and one that needed to be called. We don't know if the ref originally saw it or

not, but as a player he needed to voice it. What if as a player you wait for the (blatant) foul call and none comes?

This is pretty subtle and Dennis was just making sure it was seen/called.
 
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