What's hurt pool since I've been working in and around it for the last 34yrs.

[Justin Bergman]

It's not a great spectator sport but it can be when big money is involved or you're really playing for something like Mosconi Cup.

Pool halls closing

Not enough young players

No money
No money
No money
No money

So many good players quit because they can't make a living and they would be top pros. So if a top pro can't even make a living, a semi pro definitely can't. In golf your below average pro you can still make a great living.

In pool APA 4's can make $30,000-$50,000 a year playing pool of they are smart. There is no incentive to get better. You can make more money the less your skill level & get to play much more pool. One year I won the BCA Masters when I was 16 I think, it paid like $7,000 and I remember there was a pro tournament going on and it paid $2,500 lol

 

[Justin Bergman]

A movie won't help pool. If someone makes a movie about tennis or golf it won't change the game one bit. Money is the biggest issue, along with a tour. Pool has a big enough following and market to support it. Promoters need to do more to interest more fans. Derby, BCA, U.S. Open etc. there is people staying in the hotel that don't even know the best players in the world are there. If they at least knew maybe they would go check it out. No advertising, no signs, no radio, no tv. Any other big event in any sport you know about it 3,000 miles away but in pool there can be tournaments that I don't even know about 30 miles away lol. There's more too but it's not the game itself. For the pros it needs to be tougher also. Amateur yeah maybe make it easier so more people enjoy playing. I know I don't want to watch any good players play on bar tables or you're watching and you know what's going to happen break and run out. There no skill left in pool... They need to make the races longer, tighten pockets, play 10 ball or 8 ball, and play 2/3 sets like races to 11, single elimination (like tennis), if the more could just be a little better, maybe we could get on tv occasionally, etc. That's what will change the game... Not a movie

 

[jalapus logan]

A movie won't help pool. If someone makes a movie about tennis or golf it won't change the game one bit. Money is the biggest issue, along with a tour. Pool has a big enough following and market to support it. Promoters need to do more to interest more fans. Derby, BCA, U.S. Open etc. there is people staying in the hotel that don't even know the best players in the world are there. If they at least knew maybe they would go check it out. No advertising, no signs, no radio, no tv. Any other big event in any sport you know about it 3,000 miles away but in pool there can be tournaments that I don't even know about 30 miles away lol. There's more too but it's not the game itself. For the pros it needs to be tougher also. Amateur yeah maybe make it easier so more people enjoy playing. I know I don't want to watch any good players play on bar tables or you're watching and you know what's going to happen break and run out. There no skill left in pool... They need to make the races longer, tighten pockets, play 10 ball or 8 ball, and play 2/3 sets like races to 11, single elimination (like tennis), if the more could just be a little better, maybe we could get on tv occasionally, etc. That's what will change the game... Not a movie

You make some good points. Personally, as an amateur player and pool fan, I would prefer seeing more events like the DCC that display a variety of games (especially banks). Rotation games are great to play, but ultra boring to watch. Occasionally someone will make a zinger of a shot that perks up some viewing interest, or occasionally someone will run a nice package and therefore increase the drama, but other than that, 9 & 10 ball are connect the dots pool...boring. I'll watch some onepocket or banks or occasionally even straight pool, but i've seen enough 9 & 10 ball to last a lifetime...therefore I won't watch it. Which is sad, cause I've got money to spend on pool, just not that.

So, what would I personally pay for? I've given some thought over the years to the proposition that some have floated here about league pool supporting a pro tourney series or something like that. Personally, I would actually pay more in weekly league dues IF AND ONLY IF pros would make regular scheduled appearances to enhance my league experience. A quick group lesson or hour long tutorial or something would go a long way, and would be something that I would actually be excited to pay for. Frankly, I've gotten so bored with league pool and the hallowed trip to vegas that I don't play anymore. But if pros would come around and get involved, then sure, I'll participate again and start ponying up some $.

I really like supporiting local artisans, craftsmen, etc, and a local pool pro that was involved in the local pool community would be something that I would value and spend $ on and I think others would too.

Briefly expanding on the idea of pro pool blending with amatuer league pool would be the idea of qualifier tourneys, which anyone could enter and if a player placed high enough, then they can go and compete at the pro level and get some of that league money. Seems reasonable IMO and would represent a good value to both amateurs and pro's alike.

As for tightening the pockets, I am against that generally. I continue to believe that the now standard Diamond Pro specs with the deep shelf represents an adequate, balanced challenge for playing ALL of the pool games at the pro level. Obviously I'm no pro, but I've talked to John Brumback about pocket tightness for instance and he's against it too. If all we are going to have is 9 or 10 ball, then sure, go ahead and tighten them up...but I'm not gonna pay to watch it, hell, I don't even watch it for free at the pro level when its out there.

In any event, thanks to Justin for chiming in here. I think you're a class act, I appreciate that you get involved here on the board to discuss the game we all are interested in.

Side note, I really wish that my area had a decent pool room dammit. The best equpment in a 60 mile radius is set up in basements around here, not in pool halls...:frown:

 

[Scott Lee]

Justin...I respect you as a pro player, but this comment is complete nonsense.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

In pool APA 4's can make $30,000-$50,000 a year playing pool of they are smart.

 

[mchnhed]

We Need Smaller Pockets to Save Pool.

Glen, I join the others in asking you to please clarify how you think tighter pockets have hurt the game.
I was under the impression that most folks here thought anything over 4-1/2 " was a "bucket".

4-1/2" is a "Bucket".
This trend towards smaller pockets needs to be taken seriously.
We need to make Pool harder to play.
These pockets will make Pool popular again. New people will enjoy the smaller pockets.
More people will will watch Tournaments on TV because they will know how hard the pockets are to play.


Either tighter pockets or.....
We start playing on Chinese 8 Ball Tables.
They have some tough pockets.

 

[jalapus logan]

4-1/2" is a "Bucket".
This trend towards smaller pockets needs to be taken seriously.
We need to make Pool harder to play.
These pockets will make Pool popular again.

Either tighter pockets or.....
We start playing on Chinese 8 Ball Tables.
They have some tough pockets.

Personally, I don't want pockets tighter than the Diamond Pro table. It's been discussed to death though. Chinese 8 ball is a non starter anywhere but China. There's no way in hell pool halls are going to invest in the equipment, period. If you really just want tight pockets, then go ahead an play snooker. It's a great game with a long history and super tough potting. But if you like the rotation based pool games balanced with onepocket, 14.1 and especially banks, then tight pockets neither enhance the playing experience, nor do they benefit the spectator. All IMHO of course.

 

[ceebee]

Personally, I don't want pockets tighter than the Diamond Pro table. It's been discussed to death though. Chinese 8 ball is a non starter anywhere but China. There's no way in hell pool halls are going to invest in the equipment, period. If you really just want tight pockets, then go ahead an play snooker. It's a great game with a long history and super tough potting. But if you like the rotation based pool games balanced with one pocket, 14.1 and especially banks, then tight pockets neither enhance the playing experience, nor do they benefit the spectator. All IMHO of course.

First off, I would like to bring something to everyone's attention. This problem spans our society. Johnny says something, Jimmy makes a post & doesn't mention Johnny's idea, Then Sam does the same thing. This happens over & over for pages & pages. There are good ideas, ho-hum ideas & bad ideas, but singularly they do very little for the big picture. If all the ideas were looked at, developed into a matrix that can be massaged until we have something to present. Then, a plan can be developed to grow our sport.

This kind of thinking also happens in our country, we have 370,000,000 people, but only one guy has a microphone. If you think our leaders care about us, think again.

I agree with this poster's statement, how many players are on AZB. I'll bet that most don't want 4 inch pockets. You say you want pool to grow, but then in the same breath, you want to make it tough to run 3 balls. Just make a tough table to gamble on, maybe some of the lesser skilled players will migrate to that table someday, same as you. Meanwhile, the masses can enjoy their chosen activity, the entrepreneur can stay in business & we have a place to go play Pool.

Money can make a big difference in making Pool Grow.

 

[KissedOut]

Got to stop looking at TV, cable, and satellite as the means of bringing pool to the masses as well as weekly tournaments won't fly. There's for sure a way of doing this as well as bringing in sponsors with big money....but not the way everyone is thinking

Ah, the Nixonian* "secret plan" to end the pool war.

You deride the 5% that watch Chinese 8-ball, while it is doubtful that 1% of Americans have ever or will ever watch pool in any venue. THAT is my point. If 5% of Americans watched pool in all combined venues it would be huge and top pool players would be making 7-8 figure money and showing up on Nationwide commercials (Can you see it? Earl shooting while Peyton kibbitzes in song: "make the 8 ball in the side").

So the Chinese game reaches a level of success that we in America can only dream of and you deride and make fun of them.

And talk about some secret plan dream dreamed up by, and only known to, you that can 'fix' pool. Because your the only one in pool that can think. Or something.



* in fairness to Nixon, he never claimed to have a secret plan. Like so much else, it was a media invention.

 

[ceebee]

Chinese 8-Ball is just a game. In itself, it did not make the success it enjoys. The Chinese have a different way of looking at life than we do. The have to try harder or give up, maybe even life itself.

TV, Cable & satellite are means of spreading the news, not making the news. Media spreads the message (fake or otherwise), but can also be an announcer of sorts, to spread good news, when used correctly.

Sponsors with money are not available, unless you have something for them, to share/sell their wares with the masses. It's give & take world.

 

[Justin Bergman]

Scott Lee, come to St. Louis and I promise you there is people I give 12-4 and the break playing one pocket and they make money in the pool rooms. I go there and I can't play anyone or play the $20 tournaments. They can and they let them win them. They make more money than me I swear to God lol. Then a few of them go win APA $15,000. More than most pro tournaments pay.

 

[lstevedus]

I just spent more time reading this thread then I have been on this forum in years. I usually spend most of my computer time on FB. I think Glenn is right on with his comments about pool room owners and how "some" treat their customers, and another turn off for newbies is how they are treated by the more "experienced" players. When someone is first experiencing pool they don't even know where to stand when its not their turn at the table. Anyway, I think what has hurt pool and poolrooms the most is the availability of casino gambling. I love pool and have been playing for over 50 years, and still play quite a bit. I also like to gamble and have been gambling longer then I've been playing pool, but gambling in a pool hall is a huge hassle compared to gambling in a casino where I can sit in a nice comfortable chair while a girl brings me free drinks, and depending where I go to gamble, I always get free meals and a nice free room, and I almost always go home winner, not always, but most of the time. Now compare this to a $5 nine ball game or a $10 1 pocket game where I have to pay table time, pay for my drinks, and put up with the antics of players that make 6 figures and act like they are not going to eat tomorrow if they lose. OMG, it makes me laugh just thinking about it. I think I will stick to doing my gambling at the casinos and stop at the pool room on the way to laugh at the inmates, unless someone wants to make a game where they are actually willing to gamble, but we all know that's not going to happen.

 

[SARDiver]

I) Aramith pool ball manufacturing.

When Hyatt created the formula for pool balls made from phenolic resin and that formula was used in the production of the Brunswick Centennial balls, they were the best made balls there was, with 86% phenolic resin. They have successfully deluded that original formula down to what is now 56% phenolic resin and have continued to raise the price based on the original reputation of the balls. Then, they as a marketing scheme they came out with the Super Aramith Pro balls, bought 18 sets for my first pool room back in 1989 instead of buying the Aramith premiere ball sets because the Pro's were suppose to be better. Well, after about 3 month's i knew then there was no way of keeping them playing like new because no matter how many times i ran them through my ball polisher they just wouldn't hold a shine, and i could tell the friction off them was wearing out the cloth on my pool tables to soon, so i sold off all the sets and bought the Brunswick Centennial balls for replacements. It's all about the bottom line and not the game of pool.

Why else would Cyclop be manufacturing ball sets today with the Hyatt original formula that Hyatts grandson sold to the Cyclop company?

Weird. Aramith addressed this specific accusation here:

http://www.azbilliards.com/news/sto...c-balls-for-billiards-pool-and-all-cuesports/

Cyclops is apparently the source of that claim, which was discussed extensively beginning about here, and continuing sporadically for many pages thereafter:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=450615&highlight=Cyclops&page=14

No, I will not argue this with you. Modern Centennials are made by the same folks who make Aramith, and I have it from their company that the formula is the same as the Super Aramith Pros. Having played Aramith Tournaments and S-A-Pros, as well as the Cyclops, my preference is strongly for Aramith. YMMV.

 

[Bobkitty]

Scott Lee, come to St. Louis and I promise you there is people I give 12-4 and the break playing one pocket and they make money in the pool rooms. I go there and I can't play anyone or play the $20 tournaments. They can and they let them win them. They make more money than me I swear to God lol. Then a few of them go win APA $15,000. More than most pro tournaments pay.

Where do you hang out in St. Louis? I'll be visiting my son and family in early August and will need to find something to do during the daytime.

 

[mchnhed]

There's for sure a way of doing this as well as bringing in sponsors with big money....but not the way everyone is thinking

Online Betting?
Please let us know.

 

[buckets]

A) Worsted woolen cloths, ie; Simonis, Championship and all the rest.
B) Racking aids.
C) Jump cues.
D) Double elimination tournaments.
E) Shorter races.
F) No Pro player division.
G) No Semi Pro division.
H) Pool table manufactures.
I) Aramith pool ball manufacturing.
J) Cell phones.
K) The internet.
L) Tournament promoters.
M) Tighter pockets.
N) Constantly changing rules for play.
O) Alternating breaks.

I could go on and on, but i think I've listed enough to get some good conversations started and to bring in the trolls as well.

Please expand on any or all of these.

 

[mchnhed]

The OP and many others did Expand on the list.
The list was to start conversations.
Which it did.
Except in your case.

Please expand on any or all of these.

A) Worsted woolen cloths, ie; Simonis, Championship and all the rest.
B) Racking aids.
C) Jump cues.
D) Double elimination tournaments.
E) Shorter races.
F) No Pro player division.
G) No Semi Pro division.
H) Pool table manufactures.
I) Aramith pool ball manufacturing.
J) Cell phones.
K) The internet.
L) Tournament promoters.
M) Tighter pockets.
N) Constantly changing rules for play.
O) Alternating breaks.

I could go on and on, but i think I've listed enough to get some good conversations started and to bring in the trolls as well.

P) Pool room owners.

It use to be that room owners never labeled or separated their customers by if they could play or not, not like today's room owners do. Because back then, rooms didn't have to much to offer in ways of making extra money as "pool" was the main draw and income, therefore rooms back years ago took better care of ALL the pool tables in their room, instead of just a few for the gamblers. Todays room owners complain about the gamblers constantly, they don't spend any money, they drink water, they tame my customers money....who needs them! But then, the SAME room owners today treat the "ball bangers" worst than the gamblers....AND THEY'RE SPENDING MONEY! They look down on them as less tban worthy of playing on the same equipment the GAMBLERS play on, so they assign them to the beat, worn out pool tables to play on...and CHARGE them just like the equipment was new!! THEN....AGAIN complain about the BETTER players NOT spending a dime????
In todays world, pool time one won't meep the doors open, so room owners have had to adapt, put in food to sell, beer and wine, hard liquor, and if that isn't enough, live music, or karaoke....to try and draw some of the bar crowd already going to the bars....into coming into a pool hall for the same reason as going to the bars....to have fun....and spend $$$$$ Then what you end up with is 2 scenarios, the room owner that don't want the hassel of doing any more than collecting table time....OUT OF BUSINESS! Or, the room owner that does the math and figures spending $5,000 on 10 pool tables to get them up to par as to keep the attraction of coming there to play pool....OR investing $5,000 in booze to retail it to the customers.....6 months to recoup the pool table money....or maybe ater this weekend I'll have my booze money back and turned a profit....such a delima. But then, spends the money on the booze and justifies not spending it on the pool tables by saying....i ain't got nothing but ball bangers showing up anyway....and they'll RENT the tables no matter what condition they're in.

UNTIL ONE DAY WHEN THERES A NEW PLACE TO GO PLAY....THEN YOUR ASS IS OUT OF BUSINESS CUZ YOUR DIDN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE REAL PLAYING CUSTOMERS!!! Then everyone cries about pool going down hill. We.just lost another pool room people!!!

My saying pool room owners is not calling out ALL pool room owners, there are a few really good owners that DO understand a customer with money....IS a customer needed, and should feel wanted, and therefore is treated as so. Not shoved off on pool tables no one that CAN play would touch...like they have a disease, and the only way to deal with them is to take their money, smile...and tell yourself, they're just a bunch of dumb "bangers" who cares anyway!

I haven't been to Griffs yet, but i know Mark well, ALL customers are treated like gold to him. I haven't been to Scott's new place yet, but i will say he's off to an impressive start and shoud do well as long as he makes everyone feel important, and he wants them there. Haven't been to Mike's place, Fargo Billiards yet, but to keep a room open with 50+ tables in a small city when pool rooms with the same amount of tables, and way less, with twice the population base are dropping like dead flies....he must be doing something right!

I) Aramith pool ball manufacturing.

When Hyatt created the formula for pool balls made from phenolic resin and that formula was used in the production of the Brunswick Centennial balls, they were the best made balls there was, with 86% phenolic resin. They have successfully deluded that original formula down to what is now 56% phenolic resin and have continued to raise the price based on the original reputation of the balls. Then, they as a marketing scheme they came out with the Super Aramith Pro balls, bought 18 sets for my first pool room back in 1989 instead of buying the Aramith premiere ball sets because the Pro's were suppose to be better. Well, after about 3 month's i knew then there was no way of keeping them playing like new because no matter how many times i ran them through my ball polisher they just wouldn't hold a shine, and i could tell the friction off them was wearing out the cloth on my pool tables to soon, so i sold off all the sets and bought the Brunswick Centennial balls for replacements. It's all about the bottom line and not the game of pool.

Why else would Cyclop be manufacturing ball sets today with the Hyatt original formula that Hyatts grandson sold to the Cyclop company?

I lived in TX in 74'-75' stationed at FT Hood, played a lot of pool in bars in that area, and never came across any Simonis cloth anywhere. Stationed at CT Carson CO also in 1979-80 played a lot of pool there also, Scott Smith had a pool room there, Grady Matthews had a room there, 5 corner pocket pool roomz in the area, never played on Simonis. First time i ever seen Simonis cloth was in 1986 when i tried it for the first time installing it on a bar table, Simonis 760 green. Covered about 1,000 tables with it over a 2 year period, then pioneered the Granito cloth in about 1988, then Championship tour edition started sbowing up around 1990 or so which was when i decided to quit playing pool because i didn't like the direction pool was headed with the worsed woolen cloths, Stevens 22oz super weave was what we were all playing on at the time, closest cloth to the Stevens today would be the Championship Titan cloth, still requires a stroke to get around the table, less ball skids, easy to use a full length cue to jump on, but you can't putt your balls on it like todays players do...putt putt pool.

I didn't list video games as hurting pool for a reason, it's simple really. If any of you went up to a group of kids and asked them....while playing their video games, why don't they start playing pool instead. If just ONE of the kids in that group asked you ONE question, that question being, "what's in it for me to start playing pool? Can i make a lot of money? Can i get endorsement contracts to make even more money if I'm really good at playing pool?

What none of you seem to get, is yep...the kids today are playing video games alright, they also grow up to play Basketball, Baseball, Football, Tennis, hell...even Skate boarders....PROFESSIONALLY.....because there's money AND a future in Pro Sports....remind me again, what does playing pool have to offer? Everyone of you blaming kids today NOT playing pool because of cell phones, video games and all that bs....can't even lead by example by saying, HEY kids, look at me, I'm a sucessful POOL PLAYER....because everyine of you has a job to some extent that supports your life style....cuz it sure isn't supported from playing pool....so that makes all of you hypocrites....do as i say and not as I've done myself!

Got to stop looking at TV, cable, and satellite as the means of bringing pool to the masses as well as weekly tournaments won't fly. There's for sure a way of doing this as well as bringing in sponsors with big money....but not the way everyone is thinking

 

[ceebee]

I just spent more time reading this thread then I have been on this forum in years. I usually spend most of my computer time on FB. I think Glenn is right on with his comments about pool room owners and how "some" treat their customers, and another turn off for newbies is how they are treated by the more "experienced" players. When someone is first experiencing pool they don't even know where to stand when its not their turn at the table. Anyway, I think what has hurt pool and poolrooms the most is the availability of casino gambling. I love pool and have been playing for over 50 years, and still play quite a bit. I also like to gamble and have been gambling longer then I've been playing pool, but gambling in a pool hall is a huge hassle compared to gambling in a casino where I can sit in a nice comfortable chair while a girl brings me free drinks, and depending where I go to gamble, I always get free meals and a nice free room, and I almost always go home winner, not always, but most of the time. Now compare this to a $5 nine ball game or a $10 1 pocket game where I have to pay table time, pay for my drinks, and put up with the antics of players that make 6 figures and act like they are not going to eat tomorrow if they lose. OMG, it makes me laugh just thinking about it. I think I will stick to doing my gambling at the casinos and stop at the pool room on the way to laugh at the inmates, unless someone wants to make a game where they are actually willing to gamble, but we all know that's not going to happen.

I used to do a little gambling in the Casinos until there was a hullabaloo about the slot machine payback in Oklahoma. It was discovered to be 17%, so I walked away from that losing deal. I had watched many a good pool player lose his cue, his car, his home & his family gambling at the casino. But it was a different story when they played Pool.

I also think you are right about gambling in Pool. Most want "the nuts" or there will be no game. That does not include everyone, because there are several that will play.

 

[actionplayer]

A) Worsted woolen cloths, ie; Simonis, Championship and all the rest.
B) Racking aids.
C) Jump cues.
D) Double elimination tournaments.
E) Shorter races.
F) No Pro player division.
G) No Semi Pro division.
H) Pool table manufactures.
I) Aramith pool ball manufacturing.
J) Cell phones.
K) The internet.
L) Tournament promoters.
M) Tighter pockets.
N) Constantly changing rules for play.
O) Alternating breaks.

I could go on and on, but i think I've listed enough to get some good conversations started and to bring in the trolls as well.

funnily enough i think most things on that list has improved the game/sport.

my list for hurting the game would be as follows:

The Hustler Movie
- this was great movie and pains me to say but actually did more hurt than good as it reinforced the stereotype of the back alley pool hustler with the cheating, sharking and gangster lifestyle.

Earl Strickland
- His behavior at may high profile events has resulted in withdrawal of sponsorship. Camel tour being one mic needing muted at Mosconi etc.

Challenge of Champions 1991
- When Buddy Hall and co all cashed in their savings to bet on Mike Lebron winning that event at the outside odds i think 20-1. This is why Vegas stopped betting on professional pool.

Chopping the money
- when players split the cash or make saver arrangements with other players it damages the integrity of the game.

Pool halls exclusive nature
- for the longest time pool halls were off limits to women and children. This has started to change however we need pool halls to be more inclusive so that we can get more people into these places without feeling scared or unwelcome.

 

[Swighey]

Scott Lee, come to St. Louis and I promise you there is people I give 12-4 and the break playing one pocket and they make money in the pool rooms. I go there and I can't play anyone or play the $20 tournaments. They can and they let them win them. They make more money than me I swear to God lol. Then a few of them go win APA $15,000. More than most pro tournaments pay.

Doesn't surprise me at all. There are plenty of players who win thousands playing pool and I'm not talking about hustlers, just guys who win money playing other players and playing tournaments. But this is no different to any other game or sport. You can make more money as a semi-pro in pretty much any team or individual endeavour than you can as a fully fledged pro struggling to break through or chase the dream. This applies to tennis, golf, chess, football/soccer and pretty much everything else.

That's the gamble when you go pro.

 

[Justin Bergman]

How many amateur golfers, tennis players, basketball players, baseball, football, soccer, actually any sport other than pool make more than pros? None