Seriously, how lame has pool become?!

AtLarge

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I listened to a match where a guy named Box was one of the announcers. What a self absorbed arrogant know-it-all. All he did was talk over the co-announcer. Shameless boor.

Are you talking about the US Open 9-Ball event? No one named "Box," or anything sounding like that, commentated there.

A total of 13 people commentated, 2 for each of the 39 streamed matches, as follows:

27 matches -- Mark Wilson
19 matches -- Danny DiLiberto
11 matches -- Billy Gibbs
9 matches -- Pete Fleming
2 matches -- Bill Hendrixson, Chris Melling, and Jeremy Jones
1 match -- Justin Bergman, Tommy Kennedy, Donny Mills, Jonathan Pinegar, Corey Deuel, and Jerry Forsyth
 

AtLarge

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I had Kaci @ 25 to 1, guess how many of his matches I watched - ZERO! I wouldn't watch Pinegar either, it's horrible and disrespectful, especially to the players who had 10:30 matches that didn't get started till after midnight.
...

Actually, only one match started after midnight local time, although three others were after 11 pm.

The times (going by my computer's clock) at which the lag occurred for the 6 matches scheduled for 10:30 were: 10:44, 10:36, 11:23, 12:17, 11:11, and 11:48.

I don't think any sporting event should be starting that late. Unfortunately, with the current number of players and tables, that doesn't seem to be doable.
 

couldnthinkof01

AzB Silver Member
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Box is on pov pool. He usually does one pocket
matches. Hes not the worst but leaves some to
be desired. He knows the game and the streams
are free, what do ya do.
 

Icon of Sin

I can't fold, I need gold. I re-up and reload...
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I had Kaci @ 25 to 1, guess how many of his matches I watched - ZERO! I wouldn't watch Pinegar either, it's horrible and disrespectful, especially to the players who had 10:30 matches that didn't get started till after midnight.

I don't have a problem betting on him, I have a problem watching him.
Everybody should have know this going in. If they didn't, by those guys 2nd matches you should have. Watching Cuescore gave that info away.
There's a reason for a shot clock and in some cases ^^^^^ it should be shortened. IMHO
Great player, thats for sure
Jason

I watched a few of his matches when I was there. He does play very well, knew that going into it as he was in my area snapping things off for a little while.

What I didn't know was his actual pace of play. Watching him play Corey without a shot clock and off the TV table was pretty damn tough to do, it went hill hill and I was already invest in the match after halfway though. Kaci plays very good. Definitely Top Tier, not just because of his placement in the open but his ability, shot selection, ball making, everything... was just on point. He is very methodical and in a game where you have to either play the break out or get on the very short side of a ball, he gets on the very short side perfectly.

While seeing his execution in person really is super impressive, everything leading up to it is a real drag. The only table during the majority of the tourney with the shot clock was the TV table. His pace throughout the tourney and especially due to his match with Corey lead his next match to be on a shot clock and that wasnt the TV table. They had the same 40secs with a single extension per rack. This match was with Chang (last years second place winner).

This made it soooo much more bearable to watch but it still drug some even then. The opening shot of almost every rack, whether he had a shot on the 1 or not he used his extension there. He asked to have the cue ball cleaned a few times, which I truly believe was mainly for that purpose because as it was being cleaned he wasn't further examining the table. He used all 40secs and then some (you are allowed to go over the time limit as long as you are down on the shot getting ready to pull the trigger, if you get up it would be a time violation or automatic use of extension) on about 90% of his turns at the table.

You can tell not just by looking at him that he is young (I believe he is 18 or 19) but by his shooting style as well. He doesn't play the pace of a lot of younger players but when he gets down on a ball he stays down on it and takes probably at least 10 - 20 practice strokes before actually pulling the trigger. When he gets older, he is gonna feel that in his neck and back. :D

Overall, it was a pleasure to see him shoot, especially when he was on the clock and I feel he played better that way. I'm sure he was a bit uncomfortable with it though. I'm sure we are going to see more of him in the future simply because his play is incredible, I just hope his pace gets a bit quicker.
 
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Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
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Huh? You can't have stars before popularity.

IMO, I think this conclusion is misguided in a number of ways, but one striking mis-assumpution is that somehow other "TV" is cannibalizing pool viewership. As a gating, issue, there isn't a pool viewing audience to speak of that X Games, Xbox, whatever, could even steal. And, if "variety" was an issue, then football, baseball, etc., would be suffering, which they aren't. Also, any argument that viewers are somehow tied to participation is a fallacy because pool actually has one of the highest participation rates in the country - way more than football, baseball, and basketball, all of which have large viewing audiences. And, of course, it can't be true that the existence of too many other sports causes lack of pool on TV because snooker is widely televised today in the UK, and the same variety exists.

And, pools doesn't have to be just for pool players. The general public, the key target audience to attract sponsors, watch sports to be a part of something bigger. They don't watch TV to learn how to play better or see who gets Mosconi points.

Put differently, pool isn't popular because there are no superstars. If anyone [naively] thinks differently, consider this: if you had a pool match between Jeff Gordon and Kyle Busch, it would be picked up by national TV and would have way more viewers than any pool event in history. Same thing if you got Michael Jordan to play Shaq. Or Taylor Swift against Bruno Mars. The point is, people don't want to watch joe shmoe play pool. They want to watch someone famous. Pool needs a standard bearer. That's what Mosconi and Fats did. They didn't monopolize 3 channels to improve pool's image. They used their image to improve pool's visibility.


-td [Again, just my $0.02, but probably worth less than that]
 

Pangit

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I don't watch much pro pool these days, I watch pro darts. It's live streamed for free in HD with exceptionally good commentators, it's fast paced, there is no racking shenanigans and rarely does the ref have to call an (oche) foul. Barry Hearn runs it and the payouts are huge£ :thumbup:
 
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Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Unfortunately, that doesn't work. A big name player will always be given a break by the referee, whereas, slow play would be often called on a no-name player. Referee's discretion is pretty much hogwash. There's too much personal feeling involved.

All the best,
WW

No idea where you are coming from with this. A good referee is neutral and makes decisions accordingly. Actually, I think your post is idiotic in the extreme. The only reason it would make any sense that you would believe this is if you have only ever experienced biased (cheating) referees - in which case your argument makes even less sense. Really? Referees are a bad thing?
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
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I had Kaci @ 25 to 1, guess how many of his matches I watched - ZERO! I wouldn't watch Pinegar either, it's horrible and disrespectful, especially to the players who had 10:30 matches that didn't get started till after midnight.

I don't have a problem betting on him, I have a problem watching him.
Everybody should have know this going in. If they didn't, by those guys 2nd matches you should have. Watching Cuescore gave that info away.
There's a reason for a shot clock and in some cases ^^^^^ it should be shortened. IMHO
Great player, thats for sure
Jason

I didn't watch it and I don't know. But my point about there being no need for a shot clock still stands. If a player is slow and plodding thats where the referee comes in. It really isn't that difficult.

Let them play. They let you play.
 

klone

AzB Silver Member
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I wouldn’t say pool has become “lame”... but players, promoters, and broadcasters need to adapt to today’s audience. Pool will still be a niche and there’s nothing wrong with that - much like darts, bowling, eSports, etc.

There’s no money in pool because nobody can prove to sponsors how many people it’ll reach and how much they’re willing to spend. That’s changing now thanks to YouTube Live and Facebook Live where streamers can actually get stats on viewers. Somebody who is savvy in marketing analytics just need to slice and dice and package the information to attract sponsor dollars.

Mosconi Cup has been successful because Hearn knows how many people bought tickets, the demographics, and how much they could spend at the arena watching the matches.

Appleton and his WPS tour are getting the hang of this. He has a businessman mindset and not just a promoter mindset.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There was an article recently about the value realized by AG2R, a French firm that sponsors a pro cycling team:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ag2...00-million-euro-benefit-from-sponsoring-team/

"...The study of the media impact of the team between January and September this year,*performed by Kantar TNS, said that in the French media alone there were 17,500 mentions, which had an advertising equivalent of €100 million - excluding advertising buys - a figure up 30 per cent from 2016.*More than half of the value came from the Tour de France, valued at €55 million, up 69 per cent from last year."
 

Icon of Sin

I can't fold, I need gold. I re-up and reload...
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I didn't watch it and I don't know. But my point about there being no need for a shot clock still stands. If a player is slow and plodding thats where the referee comes in. It really isn't that difficult.

Let them play. They let you play.

Let you said, you weren't there. The pace was absurd.
 

vjmehra

AzB Silver Member
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Let you said, you weren't there. The pace was absurd.

There is no excuse for slow 9-Ball...a 30 second shot clock with 1 extension and 1 min after the break works well for the Matchroom events...if pool has any serious tv/streaming ambitions it needs to adopt this approach.
 

td873

C is for Cookie
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Huh? You can't have stars before popularity.
Sure you can. Cross-over. It's not a hard formula, happens all the time...

[edit] I'm not suggesting a "promotion" from within. We need a fresh face that brings legitimacy (and potentially a base). If that was the case, almost no sport would ever evolve.

-td
 
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AtLarge

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... Overall, it was a pleasure to see him shoot, especially when he was on the clock and I feel he played better that way. I'm sure he was a bit uncomfortable with it though. I'm sure we are going to see more of him in the future simply because his play is incredible, I just hope his pace gets a bit quicker.

Kaçi appeared in 6 of the 39 streamed matches. The average minutes per game for those 6 matches was 7.2. But one of those matches was the finals, where he wasn't at the table much at all; excluding that match (which was 5.0 min./ game thanks to Shaw), Kaçi's matches averaged 7.8 min./game.

The 33 matches without Kaçi averaged 5.8 min./game.
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
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Sadly, I have to agree. The last fast-paced US Open I remember was 1984, at the Quality Inn at Lake Wright. Everybody played fast, Earl won the tournament.

Since then, I can't think of one that wasn't a funerial pace. I don't know what happened. Racking became a nightmare, whether racking for yourself, or the opponent. Took forever. Then, the shotmaking. Slowed down horrendously.

My favorite matches were when Earl or Keith were playing; you knew it was going to be entertaining and fast paced. Today, it can be more like a chess match.......... by mail.

All the best,
WW

What happened was slick cloth and template racks. Template racks make it a LOT easier to make a ball on the break without doing the hard work to build a killer break.. Slick cloth means less work to build a killer stroke, as that ALSO is not needed.

These two things together make it VERY important to never turn over the table to your opponent if you can help it, which makes the players play much more carefully.

Back in the day, a player could make a mistake or two in a match, and it was not necessarily a foregone conclusion that their opponent would win. These days, a single mistake often times puts you significantly down in a match, and with slick cloth and template racks, one has to play flawless to catch up. AND might need a little luck in the form of a single mistake from their opponent..

Short Bus Russ
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
a 30 second shot clock with 1 extension and 1 min after the break works well for the Matchroom events...if pool has any serious tv/streaming ambitions it needs to adopt this approach.
plus a referee and a timekeeper. At the very least a professional tournament should have one person doing both these jobs. It doesn't have to be as swish as a Matchroom event for smaller tournaments - all this stuff is now pretty low tech these days.

I agree and don't agree - a good referee will ensure games keep moving (it's never been a big issue in the marquee snooker events that have never had shot clocks) but yes a shot clock makes the referee's job easier.
 

JohnnyP

AzB Silver Member
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Design a template that produces a slug rack. Clusters and no balls on the break.
 

Bob Jewett

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... At the very least a professional tournament should have one person doing both these jobs. ...
Let's take the US Open as an example. There were 13 tables and the event lasted 7 days. Call it 6 days as the final day used only a few tables. The matches ran from 10AM to 1AM so you are looking at two shifts with relief. I think it takes a minimum of 4 staff per table unless you want to work them really hard. Total staff would be 52.

For each of those you have to pay them and house them. Maybe you also provide snacks/sandwiches so they don't have to go to a restaurant during breaks. The hotel rooms are about $100/night but you could ask them to double up. 26 rooms for 7 nights is $18,200. You need to pay the staff something. $50/day might be OK if you also provided sandwiches/salads/cookies/drinks in a break room. Call it 6 days which comes to $15,600. The hotel is going to charge at least $5000 for the food service ($16/person/day). You are looking at something like $40,000 to provide one staff person (ref/scorer) at each table for each match.

You also have the considerable effort of finding and organizing the staff so you will have to pay a head ref. He needs to have some orientation/training time with the staff.

If you offer the players the choice of having a trained, alert official at each table or having $40,000 more in the prize fund, I'm pretty sure I know which they will pick.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sure you can. Cross-over. It's not a hard formula, happens all the time...

[edit] I'm not suggesting a "promotion" from within. We need a fresh face that brings legitimacy (and potentially a base). If that was the case, almost no sport would ever evolve.

-td

I am having trouble grasping the reality of that...?

Any examples?
 
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