Best Cushions for my Gold Crown

Poolhall60561 said:
Had my GC1 recovered a year ago. I believe the superspeed are original with 1 rail repaired with a k66.

View attachment 514665

View attachment 514666
Click to expand...


How does that one k66 rail play? I have played on Gold Crowns with all K66 on them and you could only get about 2 rails back and forth length wise. Not to mention you could HEAR THE CUE BALL HITTING THE BOTTOM OF THE SUBRAIL with an aggressive stroke!

Trent from Toledo
 
joeysid said:
Hi all....

I'm getting new cushions for my GC....

What are the best ones out there? I want to make the table the best it can be...

Do I want the Diamond Black K55 or the Intercontinental K55?

Is there better?
Click to expand...

Joey, are your cushions bad or just want new ones?

Just asking because if they aren't bad, The originals monarch play great imo I think some people just change them because they think it will play better.

Ian
 
what kind of hit are you using to measure 4 lengths of table
is this hitting the cue ball break speed?
 
I was told that the new superspeed is about 1/8 inch different
and Mark Gregory was adjusting the sub rails to make them fit

All I know is that the original gold crowns and centennials cplayed better than what i am buying today
 
bbb said:
what kind of hit are you using to measure 4 lengths of table
is this hitting the cue ball break speed?
Click to expand...

I found that I can throw a ball backhand...kinda sliding it, actually, as hard as I can lag
full speed with a cue.
I prefer this method because some days you can stroke a cue better than others.
 
deanoc said:
I was told that
the new superspeed is about 1/8 inch
different and Mark Gregory was adjusting
the sub rails to make them fit
Click to expand...

That is straight up NOT the situation at all.
In my opinion that is the easy way to say this:
I am doing something necessary with out
really explaining anything to you and you should
just trust me.

"K55 cushions measure 1 ¼” across the top
and 1 5/16” high at back (glue) side. Keep in
mind if you have an older Brunswick (prior to 1975),
be sure to measure the back side of the cushion
at the glue side and confirm 1 5/16” before
ordering. Older K55 cushions had a 1 5/16”
back side dimension but a 1 1/8” top side
measurement (same as K66)."
Courtesy of Ken Hash from Classic Billiards.

The TOP of the rail is bigger. The back of the
cushion(the glue side that mounts to the subrail)
is the same as the Monarch Superspeed.

This "subrail" modification is changing the
bevel of the subrail that the cushion mounts
to by "x" amount of a degree one way or the other.
This is where "opinion" comes into play and
that is not factual and no one has so far been
able to convince me that it is quantifiable other
than "because I said so". No tests, no research
and there for no facts to support the claim.

I think I have explained my point of view. I based
my opinion on working on the tables personally,
playing on them, from factual dimensions of the
cushions and I think I will just keep doing what I
have been doing. As many of these old tables I
have restored, I have not had a single client ever
call me and say: my table plays wrong.

Trent from Toledo

P.s. Dean, didn't you come on here and call a
certain Mechanic out for failure to deliver on a
$23,000.00 deal?
Now you are quoting him on this?
 
Here is a small thread posted after my table was done by Glen.https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=248590&highlight=Gold+Crown

In terms of everything that was wrong with my table when I had Brunswick SS

1. Slow
2. Bank Short
3. Inconsistent rail speed.

What I learned about a factory built GCII that was only recovered twice.

My subrails were inconstant, the actual wood of the sub-rail where the cushions were mounted too were wavy (had highs and lows). This effected cushion height as it varied on the table.

My pocket dimensions and angles were all over the place, absolutely no consistency from the factory.

It probably would not have mattered if I got Brunswick rails or Artimis, to just slap rails on a table that has manufactured defects would have resulted in more of the same.

I actually cannot believe in this day and age that some table mechanics, would just put on rails, knowing they don't fit correctly (since the playing dimensions are not standard) and say OK we are done. I could see that happening 20 years ago, but there is a wealth of knowledge available from some of the best in the business.

In fact I contacted Glenn 3 months ago asking for recommendation for a mechanic to come to my house and recover my rails and table bed. I wanted his glue down method again, because after I moved I had the table cloth redone by a mechanic that did a staple down method, and I could tell the difference in how it played.

I am very picky now as to who works on my table.
 
xianmacx said:
Joey, are your cushions bad or just want new ones?

Just asking because if they aren't bad, The originals monarch play great imo I think some people just change them because they think it will play better.

Ian
Click to expand...

They had some cracks already and were unglued in some parts.
 
Tony_in_MD said:
I am very picky now as to who works on my table.
Click to expand...

We are conversing in a civil matter, here and by no means am I trying to argue or get upset myself or upset anyone.

I provided the dimensions of the cushions , aka facts of the matter. Go measure your playing surface in both directions. I wonder how exact they are? I have read posts on here that a specific mechanic openly said their railwork(very pricey) was not exactly 50" x 100", and that was to "keep the shelf deeper".

My experience with paying to have the subrail work done(about 6 sets of Anny and Centennial rails) was the same outcome, not exact and off by "x" amount each direction. Not enough to make a big deal about. Pool & pool tables are not an exact science and neither are PERFECT.

At the end of the day there is this: I tell each and every customer of mine about the cushion issue and the option to pay for the subrail modification. 99% of my customers have said no. People get what they pay for and it is simple as that.

I have given my opinion, we are all allowed that. Everyone have a good day!

Trent from Toledo
 
I'd like to thank everybody in this thread for raising my consciousness of GCs to higher
level....especially Trent and Tony.
..I'm still confused...but at least I now know I'm confused.

Don't discount a player's input, however, we are looking at it from a different viewpoint,
but pertinent never the less...I recall saying to Cliff Joiner years ago that certain tables
played a little weird...Cliff says "Yeah, the rails are boinky."
..that's what you're dealing with...players judging a table by trying to bank, hit hooks, and
trying to run out...technically very unenlightened, but we can be bang on.

..now that Tony has mentioned wavy wood...might be time to change the whole top.
 
...and everything I stated is a fact too.

You never played on my table, but it is a hell of a lot more perfect now, than it was prior to RKC fixing the rails.

If you want the details of my table talk to Glenn he will remember it.

Have a good day.

trentfromtoledo said:
We are conversing in a civil matter, here and by no means am I trying to argue or get upset myself or upset anyone.

I provided the dimensions of the cushions , aka facts of the matter. Go measure your playing surface in both directions. I wonder how exact they are? I have read posts on here that a specific mechanic openly said their railwork(very pricey) was not exactly 50" x 100", and that was to "keep the shelf deeper".

My experience with paying to have the subrail work done(about 6 sets of Anny and Centennial rails) was the same outcome, not exact and off by "x" amount each direction. Not enough to make a big deal about. Pool & pool tables are not an exact science and neither are PERFECT.

At the end of the day there is this: I tell each and every customer of mine about the cushion issue and the option to pay for the subrail modification. 99% of my customers have said no. People get what they pay for and it is simple as that.

I have given my opinion, we are all allowed that. Everyone have a good day!

Trent from Toledo
Click to expand...
 
pt109 said:
I found that I can throw a ball backhand...kinda sliding it, actually, as hard as I can lag
full speed with a cue.
I prefer this method because some days you can stroke a cue better than others.
Click to expand...

thanks for the reply
 
Tony_in_MD said:
...and everything I stated is a fact too.

You never played on my table, but it is a hell of a lot more perfect now, than it was prior to RKC fixing the rails.

If you want the details of my table talk to Glenn he will remember it.

Have a good day.
Click to expand...

Glen is THE BEST out there, I have no doubts it plays amazing. Never said anything specific about your table:)

Having a good day! :)

Trent from Toledo
 
Changing the face angle is only a single aspect of a sub-rail modification. In order to do a quality job, the height of the sub-rail must also be corrected/addressed. The best way to achieve this, is with the rails bolted down. Running them through a table saw is not ideal, as it does not account for a bowed rail.

A proper playing Brunswick table should get 4.5-5 table lengths on the rail test. Simply swapping Monarch Superspeeds with modern-day Superspeeds should net 5.5 table lengths, though the banks will play a bit short. Not only that, the old sub-rails are never consistent heights, so the new cushion install will have an inconsistent nose height down the length.

Artemis cushions are a completely different design. You cannot compare Artemis cushions to Superspeed cushions, as they are not designed for the same purpose. Artemis cushions are a billiard cushion. When installed on a pool table, they change the game dramatically. Some folks have grown fond of they way that they play, but that is because we have the ability to adapt.

The point is, you can learn to like anything. With no written standard for tables, who is to say what is 'right' and 'wrong'?

If you want my educated and experienced opinion, I recommend Brunswick Superspeed cushions. Of course, if you still aren't sold on them, MBS cushions are cheaper and play great. They are also much easier to install than Superspeed.
 
bradsh98 said:
Changing the face angle is only a single aspect of a sub-rail modification. In order to do a quality job, the height of the sub-rail must also be corrected/addressed. The best way to achieve this, is with the rails bolted down. Running them through a table saw is not ideal, as it does not account for a bowed rail.

A proper playing Brunswick table should get 4.5-5 table lengths on the rail test. Simply swapping Monarch Superspeeds with modern-day Superspeeds should net 5.5 table lengths, though the banks will play a bit short. Not only that, the old sub-rails are never consistent heights, so the new cushion install will have an inconsistent nose height down the length.

Artemis cushions are a completely different design. You cannot compare Artemis cushions to Superspeed cushions, as they are not designed for the same purpose. Artemis cushions are a billiard cushion. When installed on a pool table, they change the game dramatically. Some folks have grown fond of they way that they play, but that is because we have the ability to adapt.

The point is, you can learn to like anything. With no written standard for tables, who is to say what is 'right' and 'wrong'?

If you want my educated and experienced opinion, I recommend Brunswick Superspeed cushions. Of course, if you still aren't sold on them, MBS cushions are cheaper and play great. They are also much easier to install than Superspeed.
Click to expand...

Looking back at my troubles, it was definitely not worth the headache and money to have Artemis installed on my GCII.
Mechs oversell them and overhype them.

Maybe their true K66 are huge improvement for home tables, but their International 66 on GC's are overhyped.
 
My GC II had inconsistent subrail heights, even throughout the same rail.

In your experience is this a QC issue from the manufacturer, or something that can happen to the rail over 30 years?

bradsh98 said:
Changing the face angle is only a single aspect of a sub-rail modification. In order to do a quality job, the height of the sub-rail must also be corrected/addressed. The best way to achieve this, is with the rails bolted down. Running them through a table saw is not ideal, as it does not account for a bowed rail.

A proper playing Brunswick table should get 4.5-5 table lengths on the rail test. Simply swapping Monarch Superspeeds with modern-day Superspeeds should net 5.5 table lengths, though the banks will play a bit short. Not only that, the old sub-rails are never consistent heights, so the new cushion install will have an inconsistent nose height down the length.

Artemis cushions are a completely different design. You cannot compare Artemis cushions to Superspeed cushions, as they are not designed for the same purpose. Artemis cushions are a billiard cushion. When installed on a pool table, they change the game dramatically. Some folks have grown fond of they way that they play, but that is because we have the ability to adapt.

The point is, you can learn to like anything. With no written standard for tables, who is to say what is 'right' and 'wrong'?

If you want my educated and experienced opinion, I recommend Brunswick Superspeed cushions. Of course, if you still aren't sold on them, MBS cushions are cheaper and play great. They are also much easier to install than Superspeed.
Click to expand...
 
Tony_in_MD said:
My GC II had inconsistent subrail heights, even throughout the same rail.

In your experience is this a QC issue from the manufacturer, or something that can happen to the rail over 30 years?
Click to expand...

It is likely a bit of both.. Since it is impossible to know what the specs were on these rails when they left the factory, it is up to our best guess. I have seen a lot of variation in sub-rail height. As you said, even along a single rail. Further, it is impossible to know what an acceptable specification may have been 50 years ago.

I do know that quality has improved through the years. Much of this could be through the use of more advanced tooling and various process improvements. How much it has improved, I do not know.. I have never worked on a Gold Crown IV or newer. They just simply do not exist in my area. As was the case with Diamond tables, until more recently. The vast majority of tables that I work on are GCI-III.
 
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