Deep Knowledge

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
the belly slurp!

Many activities, such as pool, are as much art as they are science.

Yes, the round objects and the flat surface are subject to the laws of physics. But then come the variables such as cloth, cushions, pockets, conditions (such as humidity), the idiosyncratic physical mechanics of the player, and the mental gymnastics he is able to accomplish with varying degrees of composure under different circumstances.

That is not to forget tactics and strategies that can be deployed with great variety, timing, and aplomb. In his book on Louie Roberts, MO writes about being put in an incredibly difficult 1pocket table position by his opponent, Big Jake. And then it comes to him. He rolls the CB to a spot where Big Jake is jacked up over a ball AND belly hooked. Just a little facetiously: if having awareness of your opponent's girth and that a particular CB position will turn the worm because of the size of his gut ain't deep knowledge, then I don't know what is, lol.

Lou Figueroa



Gotta watch those big bellies! Somebody noticed I think it was titanic thompson playing shape so that the next shot was down by the foot rail. He had gotten in the hole and did the usual pennies on the rail when you don't have balls to spot. Hooking his belly over the rail he was dragging off pennies when he moved off of a shot! Deep knowledge or not, weaponizing a belly is an interesting twist!

Hu
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do you believe there is such a thing as "deep knowledge" when it comes to pool?

I mean, stuff not found in books or generally discussed? Certainly not the science. More like the knowledge that great players come to learn after years of study, practice and experimentation, hand down from father to son, hoard, maybe occasionally share amongst themselves, and eventually take to their graves.

What say you?

Lou Figueroa
Agree big time. The old-school players who played to eat learned things from playing and watching that they just wouldn't give up. They figured giving up the info. may well come back to cost them $$. An example is Buddy. When he was staying here in Tulsa i watched him play/practice a lot and i'm convinced he just knows something about aiming that others don't. Never seen anyone cut the heart out of the pocket so many times. When i asked him about it he just kinda politely dodged the question. Whether he had a system or he'd shot so many of them i don't know but it was something to watch i tell you.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
The old-school players who played to eat learned things from playing and watching that they just wouldn't give up.
We hear this a lot, but never hear what any of those "secrets" were. Makes me think it's just a popular myth.

The "secret" of top players is that they do the same things we do, just much better.

pj
chgo
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
A unique instance of deep knowledge arose in the 2019 US Open 9-ball Championship in what I believe was the quarterfinal. The victim was Alex Pagulayan, and his opponent pushed out to a fairly routine jump shot that he could reach but Alex could not. After trying to reach it, Alex, in despair, just gave it back. Despite my forty four years around pro pool, I must admit I'd never seen this tactic before, or at very least, I never recognized it.

Accounting for an opponent's height in planning a pushout ---- now that's deep knowledge.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A unique instance of deep knowledge arose in the 2019 US Open 9-ball Championship in what I believe was the quarterfinal. The victim was Alex Pagulayan, and his opponent pushed out to a fairly routine jump shot that he could reach but Alex could not. After trying to reach it, Alex, in despair, just gave it back. Despite my forty four years around pro pool, I must admit I'd never seen this tactic before, or at very least, I never recognized it.

Accounting for an opponent's height in planning a pushout ---- now that's deep knowledge.
I used to 'belly hook' this really fat dude yrs ago. After a few times he'd get pissed and usually 'donate' quite well.
 

book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do you believe there is such a thing as "deep knowledge" when it comes to pool?

I mean, stuff not found in books or generally discussed? Certainly not the science. More like the knowledge that great players come to learn after years of study, practice and experimentation, hand down from father to son, hoard, maybe occasionally share amongst themselves, and eventually take to their graves.

What say you?

Lou Figueroa

Absolutely yes! There is a tremendous amount less now, than there was in 1975 though.
 

book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not simple verbal tips or secrets of that nature.

But otherwise yes, especially in the complicated games like straight pool and one pocket, where there are numerous choices. There is a certain approach in patterns that is learned through trial and error. Chess masters take years to develop their strategies. Pool is the same. Often the most obvious shot or position play is not the best shot. The more experienced the player, the better they are at determining what strategy is most likely to be successful.

There are some skills that are difficult to teach. Let's say, breaking out a cluster of balls - where to impact that cluster and at what speed to leave yourself a shot and spread the balls without creating more problems or tying up the cue ball, then playing position for that break out. Those kinds of things require mastery of the cue and deep knowledge that comes only through experience.

If chess masters take years to develop their strategies how do you explain these guys
Sergey Karjakin
Gukesh Dommaraju
Javokhir Sindarov
Praggnanandhaa Rameshbabu
Nodirbek Abdusattorov
Parimarjan Negi
Magnus Carlsen
Wei Yi
Raunak Sadhwani
Bu Xiangzhi
none over 13 years old , there is a 4 year old who played Karpov and actually was playing a great game despite it being a blitz game which tremendously helped Karpov and the announcer kept distracting the little kid asking him stupid questions. He lost on time duh.
Chess has been opening theory for the last 100 plus years . Endless memorization of opening lines, and then well worn tactics the rest of the game.
Until super computers, most of it was all well known, and well documented.
Now the top players incorporate the computer moves sometimes in their games , just more memorization. {Most of the computer moves are counter intuitive to popular chess theory , that is why they were never developed by humans }
It is not a mysterious ability to continually invent new ideas. Just having a near photographic memory for opening sequences and tactics and the ability to see the favorable "positions' developing, faster than your opponent.
As far as I know there was only one notable exception in the last century , that was Jose Raul Capablanca, he played the game mostly by intuition. He claimed he did not study opening theory at all , but thats kind of hard to believe , even if he only used it as a weapon against the people who did stick to it.
He was 4 years old and had never seen a chess board when he watched his father, a lieutenant in the army and another soldier play 2 games and when they were finished , he challenged his father to a game , after the child beat him 2 games in a row, the father took him to a brain specialist.
Bobby Fischer although a great theoretician, actually played a lot like Capa, he saw positions most others did not see, or if they did , he was already there ahead of them with a trap.
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lessons buried in the baize
and in the slate it covers
written into leather corners
and impacted rubber bumpers
so much wisdom in the wood
dig it out until it hovers
and when that table's gone
well then I'll find another..
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
The fascination of billiards is that there is still more that can be learned. "New" shots come up all the time. I continue to see things that people do on a pool table that are not shots determined by a powerful stroke, but instead by a secret knowledge, that blow me away.

I once showed the great Efren a simple little double kiss shot that can be very useful in One Pocket, and he was so enamored of it that he proceeded to practice it over and over until he had it down pat. At the time he was over forty years old and regarded as the best One Pocket player in the world.

Same for Buddy. I got him on a proposition shot that he must have tried twenty times to make before he gave up. I made it the first time and he broke into the biggest smile when he saw that. I don't remember where I learned either of those shots. I just did. I do know that Pat Fleming showed me a couple of very cool little shots many years ago that are still not common knowledge to most people. Danny D. has a couple of shots he showed me that baffle me to this day. I can't remember how to make them. Buddy made a shot once in a game where three (or four) balls were in a cluster and he hit the first ball in such a way that it backed up toward the pocket. I have no idea to this day how he did it. I must have tried a hundred times to duplicate it and could not. Then there is Vernon Elliott's other worldly cross side bank shot and Bob Jewett's 90 degree cut into the corner. I can't make those shots and neither can most of us no matter how hard we try. What I can do though is shoot the cue ball into the side pocket past a slightly obstructing object ball. Seeing is believing!
 
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texashuck

New member
Do you believe there is such a thing as "deep knowledge" when it comes to pool?

I mean, stuff not found in books or generally discussed? Certainly not the science. More like the knowledge that great players come to learn after years of study, practice and experimentation, hand down from father to son, hoard, maybe occasionally share amongst themselves, and eventually take to their graves.

What say you?

Lou Figueroa

Yes, is the short answer. Let me explain. I live in San Antonio and a friend of mine told me that he once took a lesson with CJ Wiley up near Dallas a few years back. He said CJ really improved his game and was a nice guy. I called CJ and to my surprise, he was quite receptive to my invitation. I arranged 5 people to take a lesson from him and that made it feasible for him to travel to San Antonio. I had no idea the journey I was about to take. I had no idea that my pool game was about to fork in the road. One path leading to "meh", and the other path leading to new "possibilities". I met up with CJ at the Vault Billiards. He was a cool cat and very easy going. We started with the lesson and mostly standard stuff for a guy like me who already plays above average. He helped me with my body position and stroke. But then, things got intriguing. He showed me some advanced things. Now, when I say advanced, I mean like, "Wow, I did not know that was even possible"! I asked him to hit the shot again, because I could not believe what I was seeing. THIS, is sometimes a key moment, and I hope you get to see that type of moment one day. See, just seeing that it was possible to make that type of shot is significant. Previously, my mind would not even fathom to try because it seemed impossible, so of course, I always looked for different routes. Sometimes those routes led me to "OK, not bad", and sometimes they let me to "Darn, that sucks". But, with what CJ showed me, it opened a new door to that part of my game. It took about an hour of practice, before I even hit my first replication of his shot. Then, slowly, I was able to produce it more and more. I would say about 5 hours overall, spread out over a week, I was able to finally replicate the shot consistently. Now, I use it whenever I need it. Words are hard to demonstrate and a video would be better, but the shot was a cut shot with a lot of inside where the cue ball holds a very short distance line and the object ball travels farther that the line the cue ball holds despite being a thin cut. As I re-read that, it doesn't capture what the shot is. But, here is the important thing that happened to me that day. I learned that things are possible, even if at first they appear impossible. It has opened up my game to a much higher level. A "deep knowledge" if you will. I have learned more in the last year that I did in the first 10 years. I hope this helps you. Pool is a beautiful sport. We need more people playing, more people learning, and more people sharing knowledge. Take care... Wolf.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
The fascination of billiards is that there is still more that can be learned. "New" shots come up all the time. I continue to see things that people do on a pool table that are not shots determined by a powerful stroke, but instead by a secret knowledge, that blow me away.

I once showed the great Efren a simple little double kiss shot that can be very useful in One Pocket, and he was so enamored of it that he proceeded to practice it over and over until he had it down pat. At the time he was over forty years old and regarded as the best One Pocket player in the world.

Same for Buddy. I got him on a proposition shot that he must have tried twenty times to make before he gave up. I made it the first time and he broke into the biggest smile when he saw that. I don't remember where I learned either of those shots. I just did. I do know that Pat Fleming showed me a couple of very cool little shots many years ago that are still not common knowledge to most people. Danny D. has a couple of shots he showed me that baffle me to this day. I can't remember how to make them. Buddy made a shot once in a game where three (or four) balls were in a cluster and he hit the first ball in such a way that it backed up toward the pocket. I have no idea to this day how he did it. I must have tried a hundred times to duplicate it and could not. Then there is Vernon Elliott's other worldly cross side bank shot and Bob Jewett's 90 degree cut into the corner. I can't make those shots and neither can most of us no matter how hard we try. What I can do though is shoot the cue ball into the side pocket past a slightly obstructing object ball. Seeing is believing!



The only pool book around the house, I have been looking over Ray Martin's 99 shots. Yesterday I was shooting and looking at two balls about a couple inches apart and about a foot or a bit more from a pocket. No obvious shot but after looking at Ray Martin's book so much it seemed there should be some way to persuade a ball to go in a pocket. "If I juice the cue ball and come off of that ball it should be possible to ..." I never did really see the shot, I just had a feeling. Shot, the ball jumped into the pocket like magic!

Even immediately after shooting I didn't remember the exact position of the balls or the english I used so I could duplicate the shot and make it mine. Just something to remember next time I am looking at a similar situation. When it seems there ought to be a way, there probably is.

Hu
 

yankee817299

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I too took some lessons from C J and he showed me things that are not common knowledge, but I doubt that they are "trade secrets" either. He teaches the firm grip, tight bridge, the wrist cocking. All these things plus others that the conventional instructors do not teach. All these are not secrets, just more knowledge for the players.

Back here in the DFW area we had quite a few pro players stop by for the different Pro Matches that were being promoted. I was able to go to these functions and watched as these different pros (Efren, Bustamante, SVB, The Lion, Orcollo, Earl, just to name a few) would get together and talk pool. I remember one of the matches they were all gathered around a table sharing breaking "secrets" with all of us. Pretty cool stuff.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When it comes to the shot planning process in pool, keeping it simple, one gradually comes to realize, actually is stupid. The most insightful players, as you wisely point out with regard to Ralf Souquet, only look like they are keeping it simple, but there are more ingredients in their decision making processes than meets the eye.

Good point. I think "keep it simple" is really more like "know your limitations and stay within your capabilities." If you only play the simple shots and try to get simple shape eventually you run into a brick wall and your run ends.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As a geophysicist I’m quite impressed by this answer. I salute you.

My answer to question in an emphatic ‘no’. Some ‘deep‘ knowledge would be based on physics. Billiards isn’t magic...it’s based on the physical properties of the Universe: Quantum mechanics and General Relativity.

Some individuals, like an Idiot savant, have alternate perception of Reality and can use his for special performance in one area. However, they don’t have the skills to present this as ‘knowledge’ to be shared.. They are often child prodigies in some field...math, music, chess, etc.

The best billiards player ever is Ronnie OSullivan and he was one of these child prodigies. Not in the extreme, but the Rocket Isn’t exactly gifted in social skills and dropped out of school. He couldn’t do math but somehow uses applied math every time at the table. Actually, my observation is that he is using Calculus without even knowing what Calculus is.

OSullivan is the only Billiards player that puts English ( spin)’ on 100% of His shots. My thought is OSullivsn doesn’t view hitting the balls using geometry but rather a series of subjective functions as when doing calculus. He’s not processing any numbers it’s all instinctual to him.

However, Ronnie doesn’t have ‘ Secret knowledge’ to share. He can’t explain how he makes many of the shots he does. If one was to interview the top 16 ranked players, he’s the one you’d come away with learning the least. He would need to ‘show’ what he does. Just to emphasize, the Rocket isn’t deficient or weird in any extreme. He just sees billiards differently. Perhaps, Strickland, although not the same as OSullivan, also sees the table differently...and also has a limited ouch of idiot savant‘ in him.

Just because you can't explain something to someone else doesn't mean it doesn't exist (how many negatives is that??). I think some things are deep knowledge exactly for that reason. Some things can't be explained -- they have to be discovered individually. For instance, you can tell someone to be relaxed or to draw the cue back smoothly, but it is up to the player to figure out exactly what that means for them. I say this is not a trivial task.
 

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
its the right video

pool should be about playing the game and enjoying good times talking about it

some men approach pool like a one night stand, they play and forget what happen

other guys treat it like a long standing relationship with a history of consistency and fun little arguments on pool philosophy.

grady matthews was a user on this forum
 
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