What would you do here?

[The_JV]

I agree. But there's a difference between playing scared and holding out for a better opportunity.

For sure... However I have to think that if a player would opt for the safe with the 6 in this spot, then they most likely don't have the ability/fore-sight to control where the 6 ends up after the safe. The BIH transistion from the 6 to the 7 is one thing. Ending up on the 7 to reach the 8 is another.

Regardless if we speaking offensive or defensive 6 shot in this situation, the best place to end up on the 7 is for the E pocket. ...and with a shooting angle akin to what you'd gain with the offensive 2 rail play off the 6.

Again, I'm far from an "anti-safe" player, but this particular spot doesn't gain you anything other than uncertainty after the fact.

 

[BC21]

For sure... However I have to think that if a player would opt for the safe with the 6 in this spot, then they most likely don't have the ability/fore-sight to control where the 6 ends up after the safe. The BIH transistion from the 6 to the 7 is one thing. Ending up on the 7 to reach the 8 is another.

Regardless if we speaking offensive or defensive 6 shot in this situation, the best place to end up on the 7 is for the E pocket. ...and with a shooting angle akin to what you'd gain with the offensive 2 rail play off the 6.

Again, I'm far from an "anti-safe" player, but this particular spot doesn't gain you anything other than uncertainty after the fact.

Agreed. But here's a quick clip that shows a more difficult shot position that might come up where a weaker player may just sell out. Then I show how simple the safety shot can be. It's really a matter of personal preference based on one's assessment of running out from here.

It should be no different than any other time in a game when the runout is determined to be unlikely or risky, when a safety option is considered smarter, even if it's just a safe that buys more time for a more favorable opportunity. And if that opportunity doesn't come, then so be it, especially if the only other option is to go for a runout that you have no confidence in, or to pocket the 6 and try to get in a position to play safe on the 7 (which is silly because if a player has that much cb control they should just go ahead and play for position to pocket the 7 and get out).

When such options are likely to lead to losing, there's nothing wrong or stupid with playing a seemingly hopeless or "pointless" safety in an effort to change the likely outcome of the game. If two C players were playing this game, I would bet my money on the one who plays the simple safety shot on this 6 ball. If it's a C player playing an A player, it probably won't end well regardless of what the C player does here, but there's nothing wrong with holding out for good roll if that's your best hope for a win.

 

[JC]

Agreed. But here's a quick clip that shows a more difficult shot position that might come up where a weaker player may just sell out. Then I show how simple the safety shot can be. It's really a matter of personal preference based on one's assessment of running out from here.

It should be no different than any other time in a game when the runout is determined to be unlikely or risky, when a safety option is considered smarter, even if it's just a safe that buys more time for a more favorable opportunity. And if that opportunity doesn't come, then so be it, especially if the only other option is to go for a runout that you have no confidence in, or to pocket the 6 and try to get in a position to play safe on the 7 (which is silly because if a player has that much cb control they should just go ahead and play for position to pocket the 7 and get out).

When such options are likely to lead to losing, there's nothing wrong or stupid with playing a seemingly hopeless or "pointless" safety in an effort to change the likely outcome of the game. If two C players were playing this game, I would bet my money on the one who plays the simple safety shot on this 6 ball. If it's a C player playing an A player, it probably won't end well regardless of what the C player does here, but there's nothing wrong with holding out for good roll if that's your best chance to win.

You remind me of the public defender assigned to defend the pedophile caught in the act.

Everyone deserves a defense! You're doing your best bless your heart!

 

[gregcantrall]

For sure... However I have to think that if a player would opt for the safe with the 6 in this spot, then they most likely don't have the ability/fore-sight to control where the 6 ends up after the safe. The BIH transistion from the 6 to the 7 is one thing. Ending up on the 7 to reach the 8 is another.

Regardless if we speaking offensive or defensive 6 shot in this situation, the best place to end up on the 7 is for the E pocket. ...and with a shooting angle akin to what you'd gain with the offensive 2 rail play off the 6.

Again, I'm far from an "anti-safe" player, but this particular spot doesn't gain you anything other than uncertainty after the fact.

I only differ with you on the 2 rail shape. I prefer one rail as it gets me going closer to the line of the shot, lengthened my target zone. Small advantage to the 2 rail shape going across the target zone. Very small difference but tips the scales for me. I generally prefer the brakes a second rail can provide I trust my straight up shot in this equation.

 

[Fatboy]

I slept on it last night after reading a few posts under my last one in this thread. As mentioned before I thought about it day & night and decided to play safe.

Well that’s out the window this morning, I’m feeling kinda gambley today. So I’m blasting the 9, I mite luck it in somewhere.

Best
Fatboy

PS: it’s impossible to look at a diagram and judge the pattern in this case. Put the balls out and see for yourself. There’s 2 correct ideas, the rest are nonsense on a 9’ table with tight pockets.

 

[Cameron Smith]

Agreed. But here's a quick clip that shows a more difficult shot position that might come up where a weaker player may just sell out. Then I show how simple the safety shot can be. It's really a matter of personal preference based on one's assessment of running out from here.

It should be no different than any other time in a game when the runout is determined to be unlikely or risky, when a safety option is considered smarter, even if it's just a safe that buys more time for a more favorable opportunity. And if that opportunity doesn't come, then so be it, especially if the only other option is to go for a runout that you have no confidence in, or to pocket the 6 and try to get in a position to play safe on the 7 (which is silly because if a player has that much cb control they should just go ahead and play for position to pocket the 7 and get out).

When such options are likely to lead to losing, there's nothing wrong or stupid with playing a seemingly hopeless or "pointless" safety in an effort to change the likely outcome of the game. If two C players were playing this game, I would bet my money on the one who plays the simple safety shot on this 6 ball. If it's a C player playing an A player, it probably won't end well regardless of what the C player does here, but there's nothing wrong with holding out for good roll if that's your best hope for a win.

I’ve been thinking about this and I wonder what is the better approach for a developing player? I wonder if playing the right shot for a 450 player is what will keep them a 450 player? They should of course be practicing these shots on their own but they have to integrate them into their game eventually. It may cost them a few games in the beginning but they won’t be comfortable with that shot until they do.

Also, looking at where he 6 ended up on your safety shots, assuming they get ball in hand I’m not sure any of the positions are that much easier. The 9 looms much larger coming from above it than below it and I don’t think a 450 player is at a level where they can confidently draw off the 9.

 

[BC21]

I’ve been thinking about this and I wonder what is the better approach for a developing player? I wonder if playing the right shot for a 450 player is what will keep them a 450 player? They should of course be practicing these shots on their own but they have to integrate them into their game eventually. It may cost them a few games in the beginning but they won’t be comfortable with that shot until they do.

Also, looking at where he 6 ended up on your safety shots, assuming they get ball in hand I’m not sure any of the positions are that much easier. The 9 looms much larger coming from above it than below it and I don’t think a 450 player is at a level where they can confidently draw off the 9.

Good points.

However, practice is when these situations or shots should be tried and experimented with. During real game scenarios, if you haven't practiced shots like shooting that 6 and getting to the 7 for a shot you're comfortable shooting, or getting position from the 7 to a ball in the middle of the end rail.... well, you're asking to lose by trying those shots in competition.

Like I said, a C player playing an A player is likely to lose regardless. Best option for the C player is to do whatever he or she feels gives them the best opportunity to stay in the game, holding out for luck or an easier opportunity or a better safety opportunity that possibly rearranges the 7 and 9. As I wrote in another post....weaker players accidently win from here all the time by missing that 6 or 7 and getting a roll. So why not play smart and do that on purpose instead of by accident?

A C player playing another C player or low B player would likely win from here most often by playing the safe on the 6, and then playing another safe if that's what it takes, even with a ball in hand. Let the opponent go for the low-percentage stuff, then cleanup afterwards.

 

[The_JV]

Agreed. But here's a quick clip that shows a more difficult shot position that might come up where a weaker player may just sell out. Then I show how simple the safety shot can be. It's really a matter of personal preference based on one's assessment of running out from here.

It should be no different than any other time in a game when the runout is determined to be unlikely or risky, when a safety option is considered smarter, even if it's just a safe that buys more time for a more favorable opportunity. And if that opportunity doesn't come, then so be it, especially if the only other option is to go for a runout that you have no confidence in, or to pocket the 6 and try to get in a position to play safe on the 7 (which is silly because if a player has that much cb control they should just go ahead and play for position to pocket the 7 and get out).

When such options are likely to lead to losing, there's nothing wrong or stupid with playing a seemingly hopeless or "pointless" safety in an effort to change the likely outcome of the game. If two C players were playing this game, I would bet my money on the one who plays the simple safety shot on this 6 ball. If it's a C player playing an A player, it probably won't end well regardless of what the C player does here, but there's nothing wrong with holding out for good roll if that's your best hope for a win.

lol... that was a freak'n awesome clip...

It also demostrated exactly what I was thinking about what happens to 6 ball after the safe. In the first attempt you made a big mess of the 6/8. The second attempt was nearly the same thing.

I totally agree that in a battle of C players the guy playing the safe would most likely win, IF the outcome was your third example, and possibly the 2nd. The first, (what I think the most likely C player outcome) might as well be a coin flip.

So ya, the safe isn't a bad idea if you're weak. That said, that level of weak won't realize how much worse it can become if they tie up the 8 much like you did in the 1st. Tons of hindsight being tossed around.

In the end, 9 ball is an offensive game and I really do think a safe from the 6 just really isn't the best course of action for any level player.

 

[Fatboy]

Good points.

However, practice is when these situations or shots should be tried and experimented with. During real game scenarios, if you haven't practiced shots like shooting that 6 and getting to the 7 for a shot you're comfortable shooting, or getting position from the 7 to a ball in the middle of the end rail.... well, you're asking to lose by trying those shots in competition.

Like I said, a C player playing an A player is likely to lose regardless. Best option for the C player is to do whatever he or she feels gives them the best opportunity to stay in the game, holding out for luck or an easier opportunity or a better safety opportunity that possibly rearranges the 7 and 9. As I wrote in another post....weaker players accidently win from here all the time by missing that 6 or 7 and getting a roll. So why not play smart and do that on purpose instead of by accident?

A C player playing another C player or low B player would likely win from here most often by playing the safe on the 6, and then playing another safe if that's what it takes, even with a ball in hand. Let the opponent go for the low-percentage stuff, then cleanup afterwards.

C players always lose to A players. Always

 

[The_JV]

I only differ with you on the 2 rail shape. I prefer one rail as it gets me going closer to the line of the shot, lengthened my target zone. Small advantage to the 2 rail shape going across the target zone. Very small difference but tips the scales for me. I generally prefer the brakes a second rail can provide I trust my straight up shot in this equation.

Exactly why I would opt for the second rail. The rub here is what style of game you choose to play. A pro for example who's only competing on the best and well keep equipment has the luxury of playing the one rail confidently. Normal folk like me who can have 10 matches on 10 different playing tables in a single tournament, needs to sculpt his game for a more universal approach. Using the second rail just as you would allows me peace of mind when I don't know the spd of the cloth.

I will also add I purposely shy away from banks for the same reason. Can I play them..?.., certainly. Are anything other then most basic a good choice when you don't know the rail condition...?..., I personally don't think so.

 

[BC21]

lol... that was a freak'n awesome clip...

It also demostrated exactly what I was thinking about what happens to 6 ball after the safe. In the first attempt you made a big mess of the 6/8. The second attempt was nearly the same thing.

......
So ya, the safe isn't a bad idea if you're weak. That said, that level of weak won't realize how much worse it can become if they tie up the 8 much like you did in the 1st. Tons of hindsight being tossed around.

...

Ok....so the 6 and 8 are tied up. Now the opponent kicks or jumps for a hit. If he doesn't disturb the 6-8, the ball in hand gives a great opportunity to play another safety and possibly rearrange the 7 and 9, leaving opponent tough on the 6.

My main point, the only reason I'd consider the safety a smart move, is if the player feels like the runout is too unlikely. Plenty of rewarding possibilities could arise in a safety situation, but the only thing likely to come out of a failed runout attempt is loss of game.

 

[easy-e]

Ok....so the 6 and 8 are tied up. Now the opponent kicks or jumps for a hit. If he doesn't disturb the 6-8, the ball in hand gives a great opportunity to play another safety and possibly rearrange the 7 and 9, leaving opponent tough on the 6.

My main point, the only reason I'd consider the safety a smart move, is if the player feels like the runout is too unlikely. Plenty of rewarding possibilities could arise in a safety situation, but the only thing likely to come out of a failed runout attempt is loss of game.

That type of advanced thinking doesn't line up with someone who is uncomfortable running out with a very BIH like position. I would much rather the 450 play safe against me than attempt the runout. This conversation will never end since we're all discussing a hypothetical player that thinks like an "A" player but executes like a "C" player.

 

[BC21]

Final thoughts on the safety option...

For any C or low level B player who might still be following this thread, keep this in mind...

Most of the time, when you lose, it's probably due to messing up somewhere during the last 3 or 4 balls.

So if you're ever playing against me in a tournament, and this exact setup appears in one of our games, please don't play the safety on the 6ball! I want you to go for the runout regardless of how confident you feel.

Here's why: I would rather have you pocket the 6 and possibly screw up on the 7 or 8 or 9, rather than have you hook me behind the 7-9 where I'll have to kick at the 6. And I'm a good kicker. I would just rather have an open shot on the last 2 or 3 balls than find myself kicking at a ball.

Seriously, this is what better players want and expect from upcoming weaker players, so go for it and sellout. We win a lot of games simply because our opponent tries to outshoot us. We surely don't want any C player out there actually thinking like an A player, trying to play smart against us. We'd look at you like this.... lol

 

[BC21]

That type of advanced thinking doesn't line up with someone who is uncomfortable running out with a very BIH like position. I would much rather the 450 play safe against me than attempt the runout. This conversation will never end since we're all discussing a hypothetical player that thinks like an "A" player but executes like a "C" player.

That's what I'm trying to do.... help C players think more like A players. Is that a bad thing?

I believe it's very possible for a C player to learn how to think like an A player, to learn how to play smart within their own comfort zone. Then with practice and table time they expand their comfort zone.

 

[The_JV]

This conversation will never end since we're all discussing a hypothetical player that thinks like an "A" player but executes like a "C" player.

Bingo...

 

[Lawnboy77]

Agreed. But here's a quick clip that shows a more difficult shot position that might come up where a weaker player may just sell out. Then I show how simple the safety shot can be. It's really a matter of personal preference based on one's assessment of running out from here.

It should be no different than any other time in a game when the runout is determined to be unlikely or risky, when a safety option is considered smarter, even if it's just a safe that buys more time for a more favorable opportunity. And if that opportunity doesn't come, then so be it, especially if the only other option is to go for a runout that you have no confidence in, or to pocket the 6 and try to get in a position to play safe on the 7 (which is silly because if a player has that much cb control they should just go ahead and play for position to pocket the 7 and get out).

When such options are likely to lead to losing, there's nothing wrong or stupid with playing a seemingly hopeless or "pointless" safety in an effort to change the likely outcome of the game. If two C players were playing this game, I would bet my money on the one who plays the simple safety shot on this 6 ball. If it's a C player playing an A player, it probably won't end well regardless of what the C player does here, but there's nothing wrong with holding out for good roll if that's your best hope for a win.

Beautiful table! Love the lighting too! Great clip! You sure make the "E" option and the safety look super easy. I love hearing all the different perspectives that this thread has presented. It sure would of been great to have internet forums back in the 70's and 80's.

 

[Fatboy]

Lots of C players have the opinion they think like a A player. Common misconception of C players. I been around 36 years, still learning

 

[BC21]

Beautiful table! Love the lighting too! Great clip! You sure make the "E" option and the safety look super easy. I love hearing all the different perspectives that this thread has presented. It sure would of been great to have internet forums back in the 70's and 80's.

Thanks, and I agree....this place and youtube provide plenty of learning opportunities that we didn't have back in the 70's and 80's.

 

[BC21]

Lots of C players have the opinion they think like a A player. Common misconception of C players. I been around 36 years, still learning

This is very true, especially when it comes to running out. Fact is, no C player is going to outshoot or outrun an A player. But there is a chance that a C player can occassionally outsmart an A player, because A players aren't expecting most C players to make smart shot choices.

 

[Low500]

ALL tournaments would be better if they used "Grady's Rules".
Call the pocket, just like in straights. If you miss a called ball, I have the option of making you shoot again if I choose to do so.
That eliminates the bullfeathers stuff of leaving me safe or snookered through luck when you pooch one.
Anybody who gambles with me WILL play by those rules. (or they can walk away....which I actually prefer anyway as I'm not accepting applications for new friends at this time. Full up on those. None needed)