UNI-LOC joint - the real story

ribdoner

ribdoner

SATISFACTION GUARANTEED
Silver Member
ShootingArts said:
Oh boy, techno-geek!

The pin is often called on to do a job it was never intended to do. Typical machine threads are designed for one thing, to fasten two things together under some level of pressure. Notice there is nothing said about aligning anything or holding anything straight. Machine screw threads aren't designed to do these things. To illustrate just how sloppy and poorly fit together screw threads are, put your cue together but only turn it a couple threads deep. Shake it and the typical thread rattles and the tip will probably flop around several inches. The last screw thread is just as sloppy as the first so we see a flat faced joint on a pool cue with no alignment aid is basically flawed. A pilot, large or small, is needed for precise alignment. We get close enough with the pins because the joint is massively overengineered in a pool cue. Another reason is that most are using a higher quality thread with tighter tolerances than a piece of threaded rod from the hardware store. Years ago I had an order botched by Atlas, botched so badly that it seemed deliberate and I suspected an angry employee. I suppose a green hand could confuse how bins were labeled or something similar but among other things I got the cheap pins and inserts. Not worth shipping back, I threw them in my junk drawer. I think most cue builders would do the same.

Ultimately i planned to go to my own pin for several reasons. One being the same as most that have a unique pin and female thread, I wanted to stand out a little bit and I also wanted to prevent other components from fitting mine. A Hubilt butt and a shaft I didn't make is not a Hubilt cue. Neither is my cue shaft on a different butt. Experience has taught me that most aren't going to mention it is a hybrid and the person trying the cue is going to go away with the thought that is how a Hubilt cue hits. So there are good reasons for the development of a lot of different joints. One is that the builder probably thinks they are building a little better cue, two is to standout a little bit, and three is to prevent the mismatched hybrids I mentioned.

I heard about a master pistolsmith for years. Never got to fondle one of his pistols. When a magazine had a large article and a centerfold of the pistol I scored it instantly! Damn, all these years, and people waiting six or eight years to get one and the gun had a very nasty looking misfit! After a minute's thought I realized that with the gun passing from hand to hand after leaving the builder the fault was probably in somebody else's assembly. I had to think it was a bitter pill for the builder to swallow, the gun featured in an international magazine, looking like a man that just came out of the outhouse with his polka dot drawers showing!

Lots of reasons for the various threads and joint designs used in pool cues, best engineering rarely one of them!

Hu
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Informative as always.

a friend and i discussed something akin to this a while and i'd appreciate your input

is it required that the pilot is a "compression" fit in order for it to be functional or if the pilot isn't "fitted" can you delete it without affecting anything

TIA for your reply, adam
 
Kim Bye

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
pfd studios said:
FIRST - The text you have quoted involves the RADIAL pin - NOT the UNI-LOC . . . I do know since I had the "original" Radial pin cue that Bill assembled using the FIRST version of the Radial pin (which incidentally was smaller in diameter and threaded into barium/copper metal inserts in the shafts) that Paul sent to Bill, in my hands on multiple occasions. Yes, the second (current variation) Radial pin, which threads directly into the wood in the shaft, was created in response to Bill's request/suggestion. The UNI -LOC 'system' is an entirely different proposition and again Paul and his shop foreman Gary are the only names on that Patent.
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I would love to see a picture of that prototype :)
 
iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
pfd studios said:
FIRST - The text you have quoted involves the RADIAL pin - NOT the UNI-LOC . . . I do know since I had the "original" Radial pin cue that Bill assembled using the FIRST version of the Radial pin (which incidentally was smaller in diameter and threaded into barium/copper metal inserts in the shafts) that Paul sent to Bill, in my hands on multiple occasions. Yes, the second (current variation) Radial pin, which threads directly into the wood in the shaft, was created in response to Bill's request/suggestion. The UNI -LOC 'system' is an entirely different proposition and again Paul and his shop foreman Gary are the only names on that Patent.
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You obviously have information that the rest of us do not. However, reading what was written on the Uni-Loc site and I quoted, without any further inside information, the text is pretty clear that the first joint they are talking about is the QR uniloc, and the second joint they are talking about is the Radial.

The patents, as you mentioned, only have Paul and Gary's name on them. I found about 3-4 joint related patents from the 90s with both their names on them (and no other names)

Anyway, what brought this thread on? Where were people claiming Bill invented the QR Uni-Loc? I have read many posts from him over the years where he explicitly stated he did the Radial, but I don't recall the QR Uni-Loc. And I don't recall any conversations at all in recent years about the origins of either joint, at least here on AZ. I don't follow the FB pool groups too closely to know if there was debate on there. This thread just seemed to come out of nowhere.
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
CanadianGuy said:
never understood the obsession with joints in American Pool,

The Carom guys and Snooker world use ancient tech that gets the job done fine
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agree 100%. i've owned cues with just about every joint out there and they all did their job. can't recall missing a shot and thinking, "Must have been the joint" All this technical minutia means nothing to 99.999999% of players. BTW, my daily player is a Mezz w/Wavy pin. Locks up perfect and its the nicest production cue i've owned. By far.
 
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DeeDeeCues

Well-known member
CanadianGuy said:
never understood the obsession with joints in American Pool,

The Carom guys and Snooker world use ancient tech that gets the job done fine
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Agree, mostly. I experimented with making my own resin and hollow carbon fiber pins. Had a couple of successes, which was cool. They weighed about as much as a penny, so it allowed me to lighten a couple of cues.

My first real success I used for several months without gluing it in. Cue went together fine, centered and everything. Once in a great while the pin would stay with the shaft.

I'll admit that I like the idea of a piloted shaft, but I don't think I've ever seen it done what is consider 'right'.
 
G

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
DeeDeeCues said:
Agree, mostly. I experimented with making my own resin and hollow carbon fiber pins. Had a couple of successes, which was cool. They weighed about as much as a penny, so it allowed me to lighten a couple of cues.

My first real success I used for several months without gluing it in. Cue went together fine, centered and everything. Once in a great while the pin would stay with the shaft.

I'll admit that I like the idea of a piloted shaft, but I don't think I've ever seen it done what is consider 'right'.
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Schuler joint worked pretty well. The one's i had locked up great and played super good. Pool players screw the cue together and play. Only engineers or the super anal sweat this shit.
 
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DeeDeeCues

Well-known member
garczar said:
Schuler joint worked pretty well. The one's i had locked up great and played super good. Pool players screw the cue together and play. Only engineers or the super anal sweat this shit.
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Engineer here. I've never held a Schuler, but his do look impressive.

A lot of why I think about joint pins is to simplify the building process.

V-threads can be cut by anyone.
A barrel makes install easy.
A pilot, done right, may make several steps easier.
 
buckshotshoey

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
shinobi said:
My assumption is that Predators prices are high due to people paying it.
They've been around a long, long time.
Some companies succeed with premium prices and (potentially) lower but adequate volume, while others with lower prices and need higher volume.
There are many good options out there for people who want alternatives.
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Ths ^^^. I only disagree with their MAP pricing. But they are proof the free enterprise system works. If people pay the price, the company will succeed. If they wont pay the price, the company will have to adjust, or go under.
 
pfd studios

pfd studios

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
bbb said:
pfd studios
is there any special reason you chose to point all this out at this time??
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YES, I have finally gotten tired of hearing what people have been told repeated again and again without ANY investigation of the FACTS - and felt it was about time to set the record straight and give credit where credit was due once and for all. The old adage about repeating "something" long enough and loud enough until everyone goes away believing it should not be the norm in the face of the FACTS that are on the record - simple as that.
 
pfd studios

pfd studios

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
iusedtoberich said:
You obviously have information that the rest of us do not. However, reading what was written on the Uni-Loc site and I quoted, without any further inside information, the text is pretty clear that the first joint they are talking about is the QR uniloc, and the second joint they are talking about is the Radial.

The patents, as you mentioned, only have Paul and Gary's name on them. I found about 3-4 joint related patents from the 90s with both their names on them (and no other names)

Anyway, what brought this thread on? Where were people claiming Bill invented the QR Uni-Loc? I have read many posts from him over the years where he explicitly stated he did the Radial, but I don't recall the QR Uni-Loc. And I don't recall any conversations at all in recent years about the origins of either joint, at least here on AZ. I don't follow the FB pool groups too closely to know if there was debate on there. This thread just seemed to come out of nowhere.
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HERE you go - you can start with this: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/uni-lock-quick-release-or-radial-pins.145409/#post-6498719
 
pfd studios

pfd studios

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For those out there who wanted to see the first versions of the Radial Pin and the first cue, I would be happy to send you those images which unfortunately are too large for the AZbilliards server to process - just post your direct email address.
 
Cuebuddy

Cuebuddy

Mini cues
Silver Member
garczar said:
agree 100%. i've owned cues with just about every joint out there and they all did their job. can't recall missing a shot and thinking, "Must have been the joint" All this technical minutia means nothing to 99.999999% of players. BTW, my daily player is a Mezz w/Wavy pin. Locks up perfect and its the nicest production cue i've owned. By far.
Click to expand...
All the cues I make have an 8x24 stainless screw and it works fine. Flat faced joint and piloted.
 
measureman

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
garczar said:
Schuler joint worked pretty well. The one's i had locked up great and played super good. Pool players screw the cue together and play. Only engineers or the super anal sweat this shit.
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I have 3 playing cues all with different pins.
I rotate playing with each one and give no thought to what pin I'm playing with.
I have enough trouble remembering which pocket is mine let alone what pin I'm playing with.
 
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