Brunswick sold to Escalade

I'm no engineer or a table tech. but i've seen GC's put together with zero gaps in the trim-work. I think a lot is on the installer.
Educate me, please.

Brunswick tables are only put together at installation, and it being the first time the sum of their parts equal a finished product? If there is poor quality control on the individual components, it will only show up at installation.

Diamond assembles all their tables at the factory, weeding out poor production runs of individual components? In fact, they probably make most of the components in house.

Diamond has a big advantage in quality. Even if the table is broken down for installation, it still has been assembled beforehand.

In my job, I deal with plenty of vendors that can't get it correct to drawing specs, but have the advantage that we ship complete high end scientific instrumentation that has been tested completely in house. The crap gets weeded out.

Yes, a poor installer can screw things up, too.
 
I am happy for this! I have great relationships with BOTH companies! The new GC Coin op table is a sign of lots more to come!

P.s. Besides being a commercial dealer I even get my own territory, more to come! : )

TFT

:) TFT :)
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My understanding from everything I've seen is that it's the ODM approach, with Brunswick suggesting ornamental features. No different than a Chinese electronics ODM making me a yellow watch with green sprinkles that looks like a turd. That design suggestion doesn't make me an embedded systems engineer.
If that's the case, then I'll agree they don't really design much/anything. But, someone in a technical position would literally have to work in their offices and have true inside, first hand, information, for me to buy it completely. Otherwise, its just us speculating.
 
I'm not a mechanical design engineer, but I'm guessing that you can only get that big an error if the design was by a goof-ball know-nothing. Shouldn't the design keep that much error from occurring? I'm thinking it should be impossible for a good design to screw together and turn out like that. No?

Yes, a good engineering design takes the burden off of the downstream operations, whether they are a manufacturer, installer, or consumer. In the case of the pocket castings being so far off for decades, I can only "guess" what is going on. My guess is there is a lot of manufacturing variation in the parts, so BW designed a lot of play in the components, and left it up to the installer to align everything better during the install. Some installers do it well, some don't. That "could" explain it. It could also be a case where there is so much manufacturing variation, and the design did not allow enough adjustment for the installer to align properly. That is another possibility. Probably several more possibilites. Full disclosure, I have not taken mine apart to see what is going on.

Now, in decades of this happening, and no improvements in all those decades, you would have to blame the engineers, not the installers, even if the engineers left enough play for the installers to get it right, IMO. The engineers should have seen after all these years, so many pockets were misaligned, and their design did not work. They should have "designed it out".

Diamond on the other hand, did "design it out". They knew of this decades old problem on the GC. Their tables are dry assembled at the factory with dowel pins at each pocket. Then after assembly, blending can be done where the pieces meet if necessary, to overcome any manufacturing variations. Then the table is disassembled. Now when it gets to the installer, he simply assembles the table, and the dowel pins maintain the alignment. That is an example of the engineers "designing out" the problem. But what is the cost of doing this? Extra time, extra labor, extra floor space, extra money? In exchange for a higher quality product delivered to the consumer. Is it worth it? That is a business decision.

To take that further, I believe diamond numbers each connection point, to keep that alignment if any blending was done. Now that is ok, but that could still be messed up by an installer who didn't match up the numbers. In that case, there is a saying, "there is always a bigger idiot", and you can't design out all possibilities. But, to make it better, the dowels could be different diameters at each corner, or different spacings. This would prevent mis-assembly of the corners, even if the person didn't see the numbers. You can take this as far as you want. But there comes a point where its too far, and the product become too expensive or too complex.

I was designing swings that rock babies to sleep for 15 years. We would have parents come in and put them together following the instructions. It was a shit-show. That really showed the engineers how difficult it can be for people, and how to improve. I suspect BW either doesn't care, or doesn't know, or doesn't want to spend the time/money to improve the design of decades of these pocket castings sticking up.

For as much as I like GC tables better than Diamonds, and how they play, I am disappointed after decades this is still a problem.
 
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One of those said:


...
ABOUT ESCALADE, INC

Founded in 1922, and headquartered in Evansville, Indiana, Escalade designs, manufactures, and sells sporting goods, fitness, and indoor/outdoor recreation equipment. Our mission is to connect family and friends creating lasting memories. Leaders in our respective categories, Escalade’s brands include Bear® Archery; STIGA® table tennis; Accudart®; RAVE Sports®; Victory Tailgate®; Onix® Pickleball; Goalrilla™; Lifeline® fitness products; Woodplay®; American Heritage Billiards®. Escalade’s products are available online and at leading retailers nationwide. For more information about Escalade’s many brands, history, financials, and governance please visit www.escaladeinc.com or contact Patrick Griffin, Vice President of Corporate Development & Investor Relations at 812/467-1358....



Pickleball?

Jeff Livingston
Pickleball is real and it is taking over. Its proponents are well organized and well funded.

You be wise to stick to the pool, son.
 
... Now, in decades of this happening, and no improvements in all those decades, you would have to blame the engineers, not the installers, even if the engineers left enough play for the installers to get it right, IMO. ...
No. The blame is on management. They should know what the engineers are supposed to be doing. They should be fully aware of what problems are occurring in the field. It is a problem of lousy management in the end. I don't think Brunswick management really cared. I'm betting that the managers were being paid a lot more than the engineers.
 
No. The blame is on management. They should know what the engineers are supposed to be doing. They should be fully aware of what problems are occurring in the field. It is a problem of lousy management in the end. I don't think Brunswick management really cared. I'm betting that the managers were being paid a lot more than the engineers.

I'd agree with you there. I don't know any engineer who doesn't take pride in what they do and try to do it well and improve over time. Also for things like pool tables, you can bet the people that designed them go to pool halls and see how the tables hold up. Their hands might really be tied by management. They might have a solution, and can't implement it because it would increase the manufacturing cost and lower the margin.
 
I have a 4 as well. Was Artie’s table (for me that’s cool) and it happens to be the best 4 I’ve ever owned(I owned a ton when Jay and I were flipping tables). Glen did a little frame work on it. I put a 5 up in its place once in Vegas-took it down after 9-10 months. Never stayed level. Imo a good 4 is the best GC. Of course a tangerine 1 would be pretty cool too😍😍🥰
I have played many times on one of your old tables, Aspen Colorado. I believe the table was purchased through Jay and set up by Glen with my help. The table is awesome and comes with providence.
 
I have played many times on one of your old tables, Aspen Colorado. I believe the table was purchased through Jay and set up by Glen with my help. The table is awesome and comes with providence.
That’s correct to the best of my recollection, you got one of the best ones we had. We got 4 GC4’s that were used for maybe a year in a pool room that never really had any biz. The economy and divorce pushed that room off the cliff. The pocket castings have all the copper on them. I’m 99% sure you got one of those. I remember when Glen loaded it up. We never made much on those tables, we averaged $300-$500 profit on them at the most, we didn’t have any overhead as I owned the storage building. Was just something Jay and I liked to do-wasn’t ever a business for us-was fun. Someday I’d love to come visit.
 
That’s correct to the best of my recollection, you got one of the best ones we had. We got 4 GC4’s that were used for maybe a year in a pool room that never really had any biz. The economy and divorce pushed that room off the cliff. The pocket castings have all the copper on them. I’m 99% sure you got one of those. I remember when Glen loaded it up. We never made much on those tables, we averaged $300-$500 profit on them at the most, we didn’t have any overhead as I owned the storage building. Was just something Jay and I liked to do-wasn’t ever a business for us-was fun. Someday I’d love to come visit.
Correct. The table is owned by an AZer, fd_colorado. Fred does not post here much anymore but he still plays on that 4. I have pics of Glen and myself carrying slates up snow covered wooden staircases.
Let me know if you wish to visit, late summer is best for the best tomatoes in the Rocky Mountains.
My wife is as mean as a bee stung Bobcat but she mellows out when she falls asleep.
 
Correct. The table is owned by an AZer, fd_colorado. Fred does not post here much anymore but he still plays on that 4. I have pics of Glen and myself carrying slates up snow covered wooden staircases.
Let me know if you wish to visit, late summer is best for the best tomatoes in the Rocky Mountains.
My wife is as mean as a bee stung Bobcat but she mellows out when she falls asleep.
The Tom’s are the best!!🍅🍅😋😋

I remember those pics of the off load of the table
 
We would have parents come in and put them together following the instructions. It was a shit-show.
That's why I don't read instructions.
That really showed the engineers how difficult it can be for people, and how to improve.
If you are the engineer and you designed something it would be very hard to approach that thing like someone who was unfamiliar. Even if you weren't familiar with that exact product you would likely have an idea of the conventions of baby swing design.
 
Pickleball is real and it is taking over. Its proponents are well organized and well funded.
It's a game that an average person with reasonable hand-eye coordination can bounce the ball back and forth with some friends and have fun. The learning curve is a little easier than a 9' table with 4" pockets and Simonis 760, a conversation that has been had many times on this forum.
 

"The acquisition of Brunswick Billiards presents a significant opportunity to expand Escalade’s reach into the billiards and indoor recreation markets. Brunswick Billiards complements Escalade’s portfolio of billiards brands including Cue & Case®, Lucasi®, Mizerak®, American Heritage®, and American Legend® as well as Escalade’s broader offering in the indoor recreation market including Stiga® table tennis, Accudart® and Unicorn® darting, Atomic® game tables, and Victory Tailgate® licensed and customized games."
My hope is at least some of the higher end tables are made in the USA with mostly materials sourced from the united states. Highly doubtful, but I hope they can make it happen. Keep the bean counters out of the sport. Build them right like the old gold crowns with American pride and people will buy them and drop some big coin in the process. 🇺🇲
 
It's a game that an average person with reasonable hand-eye coordination can bounce the ball back and forth with some friends and have fun. The learning curve is a little easier than a 9' table with 4" pockets and Simonis 760, a conversation that has been had many times on this forum.
This guy is absolutely correct! The key to building a game or sport is to make it fun for the masses! Diamond has built its reputation on being a table for the more hard core player. In order for the game of pool to come back here in the U.S. some company has to INVEST money AND time and effort into building up the game again from the ground floor. That means pool schools for our youth literally in many major cities ( 100+) in America. Getting back to what the Boys Club of America and the College room scene did for pool in the 1960s.

We are not talking hi stakes, pool room junkie stuff here, we are talking how a company can take leadership in building something that is a lasting recreational outlet for America with so many side benefits for our youth if done correctly.

There is a bowling alley in Ft. Myers Florida- they have a small pool room attached with 4 Diamond pro cut 9 footers installed last year. Whenever I go up there I see usually 4 people playing pool- not one under age 50; and 200 people bowling - enough said about how much pool is being promoted properly in the U.S.

Pickle ball exploded because the game is fun and easy to pick up and play and enjoy from day one. There is always room in every game or sport to become as competitive as one desires; but the pro player or the hustler does not keep the manufacturer in business.

Brunswick failed to do enough in the 1960s and 1980s to establish a firmer grab on our youth - both instances they had short term views of just selling stuff - look what happened to them. You and I may still be playing this game, but we have plenty of friends and family that go no where near pool anymore - what a shame!

I am thankful to own some pieces of pool history in my billiard collection - I hope that this new ownership of the Brunswick name can result in a true attempt to MAINSTREAM a truly great game. Building a reputation for making tough, demanding pool tables won't add even one new lifetime participant to the game.
 
This guy is absolutely correct! The key to building a game or sport is to make it fun for the masses! Diamond has built its reputation on being a table for the more hard core player. In order for the game of pool to come back here in the U.S. some company has to INVEST money AND time and effort into building up the game again from the ground floor. That means pool schools for our youth literally in many major cities ( 100+) in America. Getting back to what the Boys Club of America and the College room scene did for pool in the 1960s.

We are not talking hi stakes, pool room junkie stuff here, we are talking how a company can take leadership in building something that is a lasting recreational outlet for America with so many side benefits for our youth if done correctly.

There is a bowling alley in Ft. Myers Florida- they have a small pool room attached with 4 Diamond pro cut 9 footers installed last year. Whenever I go up there I see usually 4 people playing pool- not one under age 50; and 200 people bowling - enough said about how much pool is being promoted properly in the U.S.

Pickle ball exploded because the game is fun and easy to pick up and play and enjoy from day one. There is always room in every game or sport to become as competitive as one desires; but the pro player or the hustler does not keep the manufacturer in business.

Brunswick failed to do enough in the 1960s and 1980s to establish a firmer grab on our youth - both instances they had short term views of just selling stuff - look what happened to them. You and I may still be playing this game, but we have plenty of friends and family that go no where near pool anymore - what a shame!

I am thankful to own some pieces of pool history in my billiard collection - I hope that this new ownership of the Brunswick name can result in a true attempt to MAINSTREAM a truly great game. Building a reputation for making tough, demanding pool tables won't add even one new lifetime participant to the game.
While a compelling write-up, I don't see pool becoming anything close to a major recreational activity for US.

Evidence in the form of the prior boons/ busts of it suggest it just doesn't stick. It is like a business location that turns over rapidly, imo.

Maybe it isn't positioned for wide acceptance and only appears successful when each new blood source pumps new money into it...and businesses aren't sustainable when they are run like loss leaders with no other product or service to benefit from.
 
To be fair B'wick only has their history. Lack of innovation and basically just a badge to put on tables. They were great once but for decades it's just been a name for some unrelated company to sell products with the branding.

I mean in all honesty what has Brunswick done for pool in the last decade other than sell home tables?
From my perspective, Brunswick produced tables, designed by pro players for ''play'' during its growing years.

I will never understand the Diamond table builders, why the table design had legs ON THE CORNERS....they obstruct/get in the way of your legs to make a proper stance.

Brunswick GCI pedestal type design to allow Play/the game itself better bodily access to the shot/stance is KEY to the sport of Pro Pool.

I remember yrs ago when Sullivan used to follow our tour around (what he told me) to get info/imput from the players to design/launch his first table line.

Well, first release they were the early 90's Red Label 9 footers.

#1
The rail NOSE height was incorrect, or it may of been the angle or, but it was WRONG. Period. WHAT??????????????

I opened the first room in Denver with them. Rack Em in Aurora CO. Tony from Tony's hustlers did the install.

As a player, NEXT thing that stuck out, no rake holders, no ball boxes, no counters.

I was surprised with all the, Supposid good/help he'd gotten from the pro tour, that Greg DID NOT implement these as part of their table design, why? Greg didn't have any say, the table design spoke loudly to me.

The rails being wrong never made sense as to HOW THAT design flaw could EVER occur.
BE like building a new PGA golf course and have non spec size cups on the putting surface.

Because of that table and what it DIDN'T HAVE I was AMAZED......... after him talking it up for years.

I felt he was just the front man why?.... the table was not designed by a player, such as Mosconi it was designed by the beautiful wood AND THE THE FACTORY, and too me that was all.

Now the bar table, EVENTUALLY BECAME the best on the planet, but the full size 9' FRAMEWORK is NOT designed for the sport of pro play period.
 
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