It is SAD that America only has ONE Professional pool player though!America passed everyone today
SVB
Has Europe Passed Asia at Pool?
- Thread starter sjm
- Start date
Let’s sweat that later….
Think about what you said--- how can anyone become a world class pool player competing on 9 foot tables if they only were competing in their home country on 7 foot tables? Of course becoming champion has many more factors involved than just table size- that is only common sense-- I never said that was the only factor- but it is a big deal when a trend in a country is moving FROM 9 foot to 7 foot tables- and That is definitely a big trend that I see- at least where I live - now in Florida.
You think pool players support a pool room/bar more than league and everyday social players do?
Still more 9ft pool tables in America than there is in ANY other countries anywhere in the world, yet we only have ONE world class player, why is that?
So you don't consider Skyler Woodward to be a professional pool player? Why? He certainly has many accomplishments and an 800+ skill rating. Do your reasons relate to something other than his skill as a player and how he earns a living? How do you define "professional" for a pool player?
My obseration is that there are more talented young players in Europe who are working hard to become world class players. Certainly far more than ever before. I can't help but think that the Matchroom (and Predator) influence in putting on so many high dollar events in Europe is helping fuel the flames for Pool over there. Many of the top Europeans are coming from countries where there may not be as much opportunity for a young person to make a living. Particularly those who are sports minded. They cannot all aspire to be pro basketball players, especially if they are not blessed with extreme height.
The pattern I see in Europe is similar to what has taken place in Asia, young players working hard to make it as pros and reap the attendant rewards if they are successful. In the Philippines, kids see pool as a way to escape the poverty that pervades their country. So many Filipinos have managed to make a living at the game that it has become an accepted career choice to be a pool player. We do not see that in this country. Likewise in China and Taiwan, becoming a professional pool player is considered just as worthy a career as any other popular sport from tennis to golf to basketball or even table tennis or badminton.
My experience as a pool player began way back in the 1960's and 1970s when there were no "instructors" around to learn from. The only "teachers" were some of the old guard players who would take you under their wing and hopefully show you the ropes and and help you develop your skills. And that worked just fine at a time when our country was awash in poolrooms with millions of kids hanging out in them. Some of these kids were already good athletes so their learning curve was accelerated. The basic strategy for improving your game came down to two things. Number one was to watch top players and see how they did things on the table. Close observation was the key. The second thing was to now practice what you had observed over and over again until you could do it just like them. As Steve Mizerak famously said on TV, "Practice, Practice, Practice!"
There is no lack of good instructors in this country What there is, is a lack of dedicated young players who are willing to make the necessary sacrifices to become championship level players. Our current World Champion Shane VB comes from a family of good pool players and his practice regimen began when he was a very young child. He was playing pool and practicing eight to ten hours a day when he was seven and eight years old! All the top players of my generation from Mizerak to Hopkins to Varner and Rempe started out as young kids and kept at it day in and day out until they were already accomplished players as teenagers.
In my opinion there is no reason why another Shane could not be developed in this country and I will predict right now that you will see more high quality players in the USA within the next five years. Granted the money is not "golf money" yet, but it is growing and trending in the right direction. As more and more young kids see Shane and others winning serious money (50K and 60K) in a tournament, they will be more inclined to get serious about the game. Most will not make it or be dedicated enough. We all know how hard it is to excel at pool. But there will be a few who do make it and become our next Shane's. We also know how much kids love pool and if there is a real opportunity to make a living playing the game, then the necessary incentive is there for them to work hard and for their parents to support them in so doing.
That's my take on things.
One other thing I'd like to add. I see that many of the largest billiard companies are taking an active role in producing professional tournaments, primarily with sponsorship money and equipment. They understand there is a direct correlation between having more high profile and high dollar events, and sales of their respective products. There is a synthesis in pool that I've never seen before that could lead to a sharp resurgence in the game. Don't think that literally millions of kids are not watching these pool tournaments on the internet somewhere and thinking that might be something they would want to do. It is exciting to be out there in that arena with some real money on the line and a prestigious title up for grabs.
I also look for a resurgence in the opening of new pool rooms. Done right it is not a bad business model, contrary to what people may tell you. There is a reason why there are still many large poolrooms that are big money makers for the owners. If I were a younger man looking for a way to make a good living, I would consider opening a room myself. And there are many young entrepeneurs who see the same things as me I'm sure.
The pattern I see in Europe is similar to what has taken place in Asia, young players working hard to make it as pros and reap the attendant rewards if they are successful. In the Philippines, kids see pool as a way to escape the poverty that pervades their country. So many Filipinos have managed to make a living at the game that it has become an accepted career choice to be a pool player. We do not see that in this country. Likewise in China and Taiwan, becoming a professional pool player is considered just as worthy a career as any other popular sport from tennis to golf to basketball or even table tennis or badminton.
My experience as a pool player began way back in the 1960's and 1970s when there were no "instructors" around to learn from. The only "teachers" were some of the old guard players who would take you under their wing and hopefully show you the ropes and and help you develop your skills. And that worked just fine at a time when our country was awash in poolrooms with millions of kids hanging out in them. Some of these kids were already good athletes so their learning curve was accelerated. The basic strategy for improving your game came down to two things. Number one was to watch top players and see how they did things on the table. Close observation was the key. The second thing was to now practice what you had observed over and over again until you could do it just like them. As Steve Mizerak famously said on TV, "Practice, Practice, Practice!"
There is no lack of good instructors in this country What there is, is a lack of dedicated young players who are willing to make the necessary sacrifices to become championship level players. Our current World Champion Shane VB comes from a family of good pool players and his practice regimen began when he was a very young child. He was playing pool and practicing eight to ten hours a day when he was seven and eight years old! All the top players of my generation from Mizerak to Hopkins to Varner and Rempe started out as young kids and kept at it day in and day out until they were already accomplished players as teenagers.
In my opinion there is no reason why another Shane could not be developed in this country and I will predict right now that you will see more high quality players in the USA within the next five years. Granted the money is not "golf money" yet, but it is growing and trending in the right direction. As more and more young kids see Shane and others winning serious money (50K and 60K) in a tournament, they will be more inclined to get serious about the game. Most will not make it or be dedicated enough. We all know how hard it is to excel at pool. But there will be a few who do make it and become our next Shane's. We also know how much kids love pool and if there is a real opportunity to make a living playing the game, then the necessary incentive is there for them to work hard and for their parents to support them in so doing.
That's my take on things.
One other thing I'd like to add. I see that many of the largest billiard companies are taking an active role in producing professional tournaments, primarily with sponsorship money and equipment. They understand there is a direct correlation between having more high profile and high dollar events, and sales of their respective products. There is a synthesis in pool that I've never seen before that could lead to a sharp resurgence in the game. Don't think that literally millions of kids are not watching these pool tournaments on the internet somewhere and thinking that might be something they would want to do. It is exciting to be out there in that arena with some real money on the line and a prestigious title up for grabs.
I also look for a resurgence in the opening of new pool rooms. Done right it is not a bad business model, contrary to what people may tell you. There is a reason why there are still many large poolrooms that are big money makers for the owners. If I were a younger man looking for a way to make a good living, I would consider opening a room myself. And there are many young entrepeneurs who see the same things as me I'm sure.
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Mike Deschane is 800+ as well, but can't compete on the world stage either. Skyler is more a club pro, than a world class pro, but, thats just my opinion. Whats his list of major events he's won?
Many people have heard of Minnesota Fats as well as Willie Mosconi, yet Fats couldn't win a major event, even if his life depended on the win.
I'll just let you go through his tournament results (click on "ALL YEARS"): https://www.azbilliards.com/person/skyler-woodward/
[2019 was a pretty good year.]
I had to take him off ignore to see what was written...
A "club pro" who won DCC 9 ball, DCC master of the table, US Open 8 ball, and has consistently been the best American Mosconi Cup player the past few years including two MVP awards - you can't make this stuff up
Depends on the format of the event, and a lot to do with who shows up!!I had to take him off ignore to see what was written...
A "club pro" who won DCC 9 ball, DCC master of the table, US Open 8 ball, and has consistently been the best American Mosconi Cup player the past few years including two MVP awards - you can't make this stuff up
Has he won any UP Open 9b events? Maybe he's won the turning stone event? Has he won the international 9b open? ANY of them even ONCE? Has he had ANY first place wins OUTSIDE of the United States??
He loves to match up and gamble, has he beaten ANY world class player on a NINE FOOT POOL TABLE? How well does he compete with SVB? Whats his win/lose record playing against SVB?
If Europe has passed Asia then the PI is open for foreign travel now and there is plenty of action. I haven't heard any news of herds of European pool players flocking to the PI to rob the incompetent Filipinos.
As they say on the street in my former city of St Louis. Money talks. Bullshit walks.
As they say on the street in my former city of St Louis. Money talks. Bullshit walks.
I Agee with much of what you say. I still don't really see any pool resurgence among youth in America - hoping for it! I will say that as far as new room openings, the model for making money in the pool room business changed over the past 60 years as rents increased so much in proportion to possible table time income that pool rooms just had to rely on food/ alcohol sales to make money. This change really began post 1986 with the COM movie pool resurgence. Billiard chains like D&B, Boston Billiards, etc. really did little to promote the game and even discouraged non drinking age people from entering the pool playing areas, even when accompanied by adults, since they had cabaret licenses for entertainment and after 6PM no one under 21 could enter the establishment.
2021 World (9-Ball) Championship -- wins over Babica, Gorst, Lotfy, and Gomez on his way to a 5th/8th finish.
2019 DCC 9-Ball -- wins over (among others) Chinakhov, Hohmann, Kaci, Corteza, Biado, Orcollo, and Aranas on his way to the title.
Mosconi Cup -- wins in singles over Shaw (twice), Ouschan (twice), Filler, Kazakis, and Feijen.
I don't know Woodward's win/loss record against SVB. But I know that even a poor record against one of the world's handful of best players would not mean that he is not a professional pool player.
At first you said that the US has only one professional pool player. So I asked how you define "professional" for a pool player. You didn't really answer that, but you then seemed to try to limit it to players who have won major titles outside of their own country.
I think a lot of people might say that Woodward is not yet one of the world's elite pros, but he is certainly a professional pool player, and a darn good one.
Thanks for a fascinating post. It's very uplifting.
The only footnote I'll add is that one of the measures of an instructor is the extent to which he/she inspires his/her students. If, as you suggest, America lacks enough players that are sufficiently committed to becoming first-flight players, I think that America's instructors have at least some accountability for it.
The reality I've seen is that most instructors are working with older students, mostly men and women who have either been playing for a period of time or someone who has recently taken an interest in the game. By older I refer to anyone in their 20's or older and I would suggest the average age for today's pool student is probably over 30. To develop young players who have the potential to be champions they need to start at pre-teen or at the latest their early teenage years. Almost all top flight athletes (there are exceptions) develop their skills at the same time their body is growing and developing.
Trying to become a top flight pool player after age 17 or 18 puts you at a disadvantage imo. By age eighteen Mizerak, Hopkins and Rempe were all bonifide championship level players. They had been working hard on their games for many years by then. A very early start is what it takes to reach the top in this game, with only rare exceptions. Right now in China there are young children being groomed to be the world pool champions of the future. The great women players we are seeing from China are only the first crop of players who started out as children on this path. Their culture supports a focus on a single sport or talent to the exclusion of a more balanced education.
I can inspire the hell out of a 25 year old young man who wants to be the best pool player he can possibly be. And he may well become a decent regional player of "shortstop" level speed. The chances of him developing beyond that level are minimal at best. I don't really know why that's the case, but it seems to hold true not just in pool, but in golf and tennis as well. The champions start out as soon as they can hold a club or a racket. You want to make a pool champion, then start with a four year old and put a little cue in their hands and turn them loose every day to play pool all they want. I'd like to instruct that kid when he is eight or nine!
Jay/Stu,
Not sure if either of you saw my post last week so I'm going to quote you and link it here.
I agree with most of what you've written and am open minded in those minority differences. Thank you for the discussion!
Has Europe Passed Asia at Pool?
Has Europe Passed Asia at Pool? As one who has long placed the Asian players on a pedestal, I never thought I’d ever have to consider this possibility, but I’m starting to believe that Europe has passed Asia as the best pool playing continent. At the US Open 9-ball in September, the last four...
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See, thats kind of the thing I'm talking about. The longer the match races, the greater the chances of the better player winning.