Foul..........Poor Form..........Genius Move?

[soyale]

Sounds perfectly legal to me.
Call safe and tie up or shoot your opponents balls in.

In and safe has always been legal in 8-ball.

im probably misunderstanding, but are yall suggesting that you can call safe, hit your opponents ball first, and not give up a foul? this piqued my interest, so i’m reading the wpa rules right now and can’t find where this is listed.

from: https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/

3.6 Shots Required to Be Called

On each shot except the break, shots must be called as explained in 1.6 Standard Call Shot.
The eight ball may be called only after the shot on which the shooter’s group has been cleared
from the table. The shooter may call “safety” in which case play passes to the opponent at the
end of the shot and any object ball pocketed on the safety remains pocketed. (See 8.17 Safety Shot.)

from: 8.17

8.17 Safety Shot

A shot is said to be a safety shot if the game in play is a call shot game and the shooter
declared the shot to the referee or his opponent to be a “safety” before the shot. Play passes to
the other player at the end of a safety shot.

from: 3.9

3.9 Standard Fouls

If the shooter commits a foul, play passes to his opponent. The cue ball is in hand, and the
incoming player may place it anywhere on the playing surface. (See 1.5 Cue Ball in Hand.)

The following are standard fouls at eight ball:
6.1 Cue Ball Scratch or off the Table
6.2 Wrong Ball First The first ball contacted by the cue ball on each shot must belong to the shooter’s group, except when the table is open. (See 3.4 Open Table /Choosing Groups).

again i might just be misreading what you fellas are saying initially in which case i apologize.

 

[straightline]

They are fouls with standard penalties. They are very useful strategic moves. There's a grey "unsportsman like" area which is more like BS but that's the question.

 

[BC21]

I’m having a hard time seeing how he gains by pocketing the opponent’s balls and giving up ball-in-hand. I suppose there are those rare occasions though. I say fine with it. I’m just glad they recognize it as a foul. A foul giving ball in hand is some kind of abstract thought in many circles where 8 ball is played on bar boxes.

See the attached exampled. Let's say you are solids and I am stripes. You slightly missed the 3 ball and it rolled up against tue 8 as shown. I have no good or easy way of winning from here, especially if I shoot the 10 ball and go for a breakout on the 8 but not get it out. You have a winning advantage right now, even though it's my shot.

My best option here is to foul intentionally by shooting your 6ball in. This keeps you from being able to use it to break your 3 out. By pocketing your ball and giving you a ball in hand, the winning advantage flips from you to me.

 

[The_JV]

See the attached exampled. Let's say you are solids and I am stripes. You slightly missed the 3 ball and it rolled up against tue 8 as shown. I have no good or easy way of winning from here, especially if I shoot the 10 ball and go for a breakout on the 8 but not get it out. You have a winning advantage right now, even though it's my shot.

My best option here is to foul intentionally by shooting your 6ball in. This keeps you from being able to use it to break your 3 out. By pocketing your ball and giving you a ball in hand, the winning advantage flips from you to me.

It's funny... after all the hard work TinMan put in coming up with examples. It's yours where I have to flat out agree without an alternative...lol

That said, with the 10ball where it is and having BIH to shoot the 3. It wouldn't be too hard to open up the cluster and leave stripes in low percentage shape requirement.

 

[BC21]

Maybe I misread your post with my first answer. In your scenario I would NEVER pocket my opponents 3 ball and give them BIH.

Even if it's your best chance of winning the game?

 

[straightline]

See the attached exampled. Let's say you are solids and I am stripes. You slightly missed the 3 ball and it rolled up against tue 8 as shown. I have no good or easy way of winning from here, especially if I shoot the 10 ball and go for a breakout on the 8 but not get it out. You have a winning advantage right now, even though it's my shot.

My best option here is to foul intentionally by shooting your 6ball in. This keeps you from being able to use it to break your 3 out. By pocketing your ball and giving you a ball in hand, the winning advantage flips from you to me.

Now opposing player makes your 10 what do you do?

 

[BC21]

W

Now opposing player makes your 10 what do you do?

Win. Place the cb a few inches behind the 8 for a bank in the side. Shoot a soft stop shot, leaving the cb froze or nearly froze to the 3 at an odd angle in case the 8 doesn't drop. If the bank isn't on, then just bump the 8 out and leave the cb tight on the 3.

 

[measureman]

im probably misunderstanding, but are yall suggesting that you can call safe, hit your opponents ball first, and not give up a foul? this piqued my interest, so i’m reading the wpa rules right now and can’t find where this is listed.

from: https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/


from: 8.17


from: 3.9


again i might just be misreading what you fellas are saying initially in which case i apologize.

If you hit first or pocket your opponents ball it is a foul and your opponent gets ball in hand.

 

[straightline]

W

Win. Place the cb a few inches behind the 8 for a bank in the side. Shoot a soft stop shot, leaving the cb froze or nearly froze to the 3 at an odd angle in case the 8 doesn't drop. If the bank isn't on, then just bump the 8 out and leave the cb tight on the 3.

This is all hypothetical so even though your half ball banks are unmissable ( ) You could leave it wide open if he kicks the three in. Would you consider a legal safety leaving the 8 between the cue and the 3?

 

[BC21]

This is all hypothetical so even though your half ball banks are unmissable ( ) You could leave it wide open if he kicks the three in. Would you consider a legal safety leaving the 8 between the cue and the 3?

It's all about knowing your limitations. I feel like the bank with ball in hand is more probable than my opponent kicking up table with just enough left spin to kick the 3 in.

Sure, you could thin the 8 and leave it between the cb and 3 ball. You might get another ball hand, but may not have much of a shot if you didn't seperate the 3 and 8 enough. But you might not get a ball in hand. Your opponent just might flip this game back around by kicking softly off 2 rails, snuggling the cb tight against the back of the 3, which happens to be one of my favorite types of safety shots.

Anyhow, if I have ball in hand on the 8 and can setup a high percentage bank shot, that's the shot I'm playing, especially with the built-in opportunity of freezing the cb to my opponent's ball.

 

[336Robin]

im probably misunderstanding, but are yall suggesting that you can call safe, hit your opponents ball first, and not give up a foul? this piqued my interest, so i’m reading the wpa rules right now and can’t find where this is listed.

from: https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/


from: 8.17


from: 3.9


again i might just be misreading what you fellas are saying initially in which case i apologize.

I don't think anyone suggested we could make the other players ball whilst calling in and safe.

That is a foul.

However you can make one of your own provided you make a good hit and since you called
in and safe you can use the shot to put your opponent in a trap he might not be able to get out of.

It's strategy and its legal.

 

[BC21]

There are plenty of smart strategic moves that involve intentional fouls. Nothing wrong or unsportsmanlike about it. Sometimes, in order to win, you have to think outside the box, but still follow the rules of the game.

Here's an example: I want to bump the 7 ball to the end rail so I can eventually play it off the 8 and break the 3 out. When I bump the 7 ball to the end rail, a smart opponent would likely just bank it back up table (intentional foul) instead of shooting at their 10ball.

With the 7 ball out of play, even with a ball in hand, there's not much I can do with the solids, at least while that 10ball is in front of the side pocket. So my next move might be to bump that 10ball to the side rail, giving my opponent a ball in hand. Better yet, bump it all the way up table to the end rail, opposite end of the 8-3. This is survival mode, staying in the game. What I'd like is another ball in hand where the 10ball isn't in front of a pocket, then I can possibly play a safety with the 3ball, moving it out without leaving my opponent a shot on the 10.

8ball can sometimes be like a game of chess, where it's more about smart moves, not runouts or miracle shots.

 

[soyale]

I don't think anyone suggested we could make the other players ball whilst calling in and safe.

That is a foul.

However you can make one of your own provided you make a good hit and since you called
in and safe you can use the shot to put your opponent in a trap he might not be able to get out of.

It's strategy and its legal.

i got it all twisted up and mixed up which ball we were talking about pocketing.

most of the thread is about intentionally pocketing your opponents ball and i got confused.

time to go work on the ol’ reading comprehension

 

[easy-e]

Even if it's your best chance of winning the game?

In that specific situation, I prefer other options. I'm always willing to shift my plan depending on the opponent. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "never".

 

[BC21]

Not a rule number, but I have correspondence from John Leyman,
Director of Rules & Referees
CueSports International

Here was my question...

"There was one scenario that wasnt mentioned under deliberate fouls. That is when you have no shot on a legal ball, so you shoot at an opponent's ball on purpose to tie it up with other balls. Therefore giving them ball in hand. Is this a violation under "Deliberate Fouls"?

His response....

"This is unsportsmanlike conduct and is penalized with a loss of the game in play."

That is copied and pasted from the email.

It's been my experience that many refs simply don't know the rules well, and they make lousy calls quite often. So I would guess that the "Director" of refs and rules is just a figurehead position, and he probably doesn't understand the meaning of "unsportsmanlike conduct", so he gave his personal opinion on it. He doesn't write the rules.

Unsportsmanlike conduct would include: Sharking or taunting your opponent, moving balls with your cue using an illegal stroke, physically interfering with your opponent or the balls or the table during play in an effort to gain an advantage (like moving balls on purpose with your hands or stopping a ball while it's in motion), continuing to shoot after your opponent calls a foul, or if there's a 3 foul rule it's unsportsmanlike to ignore it and continue shooting if your opponent gave you the warning when on 2 fouls.

Basically, anything that is considering cheating or sharking or disrespectful to the opponent or game itself is unsportsmanlike conduct. Fouls are not, whether intentional or unintentional. Playing an intentional foul using an illegal stroke, however, is unsportsmanlike. And what's supposed to happen is the player gets warned, then if the same illegal stroke is repeated the player can be disqualified and lose the game/match.

I don't understand why CSI or BCA can't provide a better definition of unsportsmanlike conduct in their rules. Instead, they leave it so ambiguous that nobody really knows what it is.

 

[Bob Jewett]

...

I don't understand why CSI or BCA can't provide a better definition of unsportsmanlike conduct in their rules. Instead, they leave it so ambiguous that nobody really knows what it is.

Do you have a suggestion for better wording?

 

[BC21]

Do you have a suggestion for better wording?

This would be unsportsmanlike...the 14ball does not go by the 8, so this player plans on dropping it into the pocket! Lol

 

[Bob Jewett]

This would be unsportsmanlike...the 14ball does not go by the 8, so this player plans on dropping it into the pocket! Lol ...

I'll take that as a no.

 

[BC21]

Do you have a suggestion for better wording?

I believe in the CSI rules it's worded/defined sufficiently, though scattered throughout several different rules sections.

Concerning intentional fouls, this answers the op's question, at least for BCA 8ball.

Official Rules of CSI

1-40 Deliberate Fouls

1. Situation: Player A, wanting to end their inning but not wanting to disturb the lay of the table, taps the cue ball with a legal stroke, moving it only slightly and not attempting to complete a legal shot.

Ruling: (a) foul on Player A. It is not Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

Discussion: The intentional commission of a foul, which frequently occurs when a player executes a foul shot that gives up ball in hand but still puts their opponent at a disadvantage, is an accepted practice. This is not a deliberate foul as addressed by Rules 1-40 and 1-45-4. A common example is a player, in an 8-Ball game, intentionally shooting at the opponents group in order to pocket the opponent’s ball or move it into an unfavorable position. Even though the shooter gives up ball in hand, they hope that the resulting position of the table works in their favor. During this type of shot, the foul is contacting an illegal object ball first, but otherwise the shot is executed legally, using the cue ball and using a legal stroke.

However, if the shot were executed by contacting the object ball directly with the cue, the foul would be penalized under Rule 1.40, with a mandatory warning given (assuming only one ball was moved), and a loss of game being awarded on the second offense.

 

[BC21]

I'll take that as a no.

The wording is ok in the CSI rules. In fact, it coincides with my earlier post of what should be considered unsportsmanlike conduct.

So the problem isn't ambiguity in the rules, at least not in the CSI rules. I guess the reason so many people don't know exactly what constitutes unsportsmanlike conduct is because they haven't read the rules in their entirety.