Mosconni Cup needs a major change to stay relevant.

[jokrswylde]

This is a great post. Thanks for the insight.

The top European players (and many Asian players) start out with coaches, work through a complex series of certifications/qualifications to advance and continue to consult with coaches throughout their playing careers. Ours frankly don't. The approach to the game from start to finish is totally different.

I agree, but with so many other distractions/activities for our young people to participate in, I'm not sure how you attract the athletes to pool. I mean, football, soccer, baseball, basketball, volleyball, lacrosse- travel teams, aau, heck most successful high school programs run year around nowadays. Even the non-athletic kids are going to space camp, robotics camp, drone camp, band camp, cheer camp, and on and on. Do most European countries have the sheer number and variety of youth sports involvement? I really don't know, but it is hard to imagine.

Meanwhile, China and Europe created and nurtured a better system that is lucrative, sustainable and develops a more dominant class of player. That, and most of them are conditioned to work with coaches to stay on top.

What is the system they developed? and how is it lucrative? I get that Filler, Ouchin, Gorst, et al. can make a great living at pool, just as SVB and likely Sky can, but can the 8th ranked Russian player make that much more than the 8th ranked US player? Can someone just inside the top 20 of Polish players make a living wage on pool alone?

I really don't know and am genuinely curious. Is the Eurotour allowing these European players to quit the 9 to 5 and focus solely on working with their pool coaches?

I would point out that when Team Europe's coach came over to the U.S. side, the players were the same but the results were dramatic. Interesting....

100% Johan brought a whole new attitude and confidence to the team. As good as JJ is, I am not sure he has the same presence with as Johan did. It is a shame they didn't let Johan leave on his own terms. I don't know if we would be having this discussion if the US had won the last 4 MC's

 

[AtLarge]

Thanks for that. Do you know what percent of time the breaker won the double hill rack of a Mosconi Cup match? After all, the right to break on the double hill is the primary advantage gained by a winning lag.

Yes, I have included that in my MC "Lags" post each year. The latest one: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...osconi-cup-december-2021.537949/#post-7128253

For those 9 years combined (2013-2021), the breaker won 27 of the 39 hill/hill racks -- 69%. And 14 of the wins were by B&R. That's a B&R percentage of 36% (14 of 39) in hill/hill racks, compared with 27% (283 of 1055) for all racks in those 9 years.

 

[sjm]

Yes, I have included that in my MC "Lags" post each year. The latest one: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...osconi-cup-december-2021.537949/#post-7128253

For those 9 years combined (2013-2021), the breaker won 27 of the 39 hill/hill racks -- 69%. And 14 of the wins were by B&R. That's a B&R percentage of 36% (14 of 39) in hill/hill racks, compared with 27% (283 of 1055) for all racks in those 9 years.

Thanks for that. If the loser of the lag doesn't get to shoot in the double hill rack 36% of the time, it's a pretty big deal.

 

[Island Drive]

Here's a few ideas.

1. Each team must have a player over 60.
2. Each team must have a player under 21.
3. Or each team must have one female.

 

[justnum]

Here's a few ideas.

1. Each team must have a player over 60.
2. Each team must have a player under 21.
3. Or each team must have one female.

Id go with calling in for fan favorites. And further to say a woman coach.

I am saying there are great female pros from US and formal recognition is past due.

 

[Cue Alchemist]

The top European players (and many Asian players) start out with coaches, work through a complex series of certifications/qualifications to advance and continue to consult with coaches throughout their playing careers. Ours frankly don't. The approach to the game from start to finish is totally different. The OG players of old in the U.S. had gambling, the Road and countless local and regional tournaments and sponsors with deep pockets to work with, when the Euro players were still playing mostly pub leagues. Most of that action is dead, many of the open "tours" and tournaments are glorified Masters amatuer events, and there's no central organized body or pro tour to build on here in the U.S. The system that bore the Lassiter-era and the subsequent Strickland/Varner/Sigel-era and bred Mosconi Cup dominance has atrophied and all but died. Meanwhile, China and Europe created and nurtured a better system that is lucrative, sustainable and develops a more dominant class of player. That, and most of them are conditioned to work with coaches to stay on top. I would point out that when Team Europe's coach came over to the U.S. side, the players were the same but the results were dramatic. Interesting....

Great Post, this is what I noticed from about 2006 onwards. I've watched every mosconi cup since 1998.i liked the early days. Even though America dominated. And back then, you couldn't see how thay wouldn't, continue keep winning every year. Once Europe cought up. There was no stopping them. I always wondered why, that next generation of great American players never really happened.
The one reason Im not a big fan of the mosconi cup now. (even though I watch it every year)
It's not really about pool anymore. It's feels more like a circus now!!!!

A question for West Point 1987: Is that coaching system Europe have, has it been used in the American system yet?

 

[Cue Alchemist]

Here's a few ideas.

1. Each team must have a player over 60.
2. Each team must have a player under 21.
3. Or each team must have one female.

Something like that, could work. Although the whole idea of this current ranking set up.
Is the highest ranked get the spots.

 

[tableroll]

One solution might be to switch to last pocket eight ball. I've mentioned the game to a few European pros and not even one of them had even heard of it. Of course, that's a temporary fix, as within a couple of years the Europeans would be schooling us even at that game.

All kidding aside, however, the Mosconi remains an excellent event and the energy level surrounding remains very high, but for it to become more relevant, American pool has to become more relevant on the world stage. The solution lies in training and strong work ethic.

So far, who will be on this years Mosconi Cup team?

 

[tableroll]

I love the Mosconni Cup but lets face it, the USA cannot compete enough to make it relevant I believe it will always be the case because Europe has twice the population as the USA and many countries' social safety nets provide much better long term financial security to pro's (and their families) who must dedicate their lives to the sport to be competitive. Not to mention those that actively sponsor youngsters. Golf's Ryder Cup is the format the Mosconni Cup is based on. Before 1979 competition was held between Great Britain and the USA only and it became snooze fest since the USA was so dominant. Led by Jack Nicholas, it was changed to include all of Europe and is now the most anticipated event next to Golf's majors. My recommendation is we include players from North and South America to help even out the field. I know many love to chant USA,USA,USA, but if we only win once every 5 or 10 years it’s going to die. Your thoughts?

The only thing better is the Texas Open coming in in a few days.

• Eighteen 9′ Diamond Pro-Am Pool Tables
• Two 7′ Diamond Smart Pool Tables
• Two 5’x10′ Gabriel’s Billiard/Carom Tables
• 
  
• Nineteen Flat-screen TVs

 

[MattPoland]

It’s funny because the lag or breaking from hill-hill is a big deal. But between those two moments there’s a lot of pool being played. I’ve always felt the deciding factor has always been successful safeties and kicksafe responses to safeties. I have always felt that was an area I’ve seen the biggest difference in skill that plays out in shifting momentum in matches for European favor.

 

[Island Drive]

With MR now supporting the Jr players, this may be the ticket.
Forget the Fishers and the old guys, bring in the new Ghorst/Sanchez/type youngsters to join in the ruckus.

I'm glad one of our posters didn't inform the OP that Mosconi is not spelled correctly.

 

[Jack Fate]

Get Gorst to defect to the US and go from there.

 

[sjm]

So far, who will be on this years Mosconi Cup team?

To me, SVB and Skyler Woodward are slam dunks. Assuming Earl, who practically sat out the entire competitive year, won't be mysteriously put on the team, that leaves three spots and it's not so simple to fill them.

I'd also go with Oscar Dominguez, who won the Jay Swanson Memorial and showed pretty solid form at each of the UK Open, the European Open and the World 10-ball. Oscar looks like he's back in stroke to me.

I like what I've been seeing of late from Tyler Styer, who lost 11-10 to Filler at the World Games. He also beat Josh during the 2021 Mosconi up in singles. He's not overwhelmed by the Mosconi Cup pressure.

After that, either of Shane Wolford or Josh Roberts will do to round out the team. Josh Roberts is long overdue for a Mosconi spot, but either of these two makes sense.

 

[sjm]

It’s funny because the lag or breaking from hill-hill is a big deal. But between those two moments there’s a lot of pool being played. I’ve always felt the deciding factor has always been successful safeties and kicksafe responses to safeties. I have always felt that was an area I’ve seen the biggest difference in skill that plays out in shifting momentum in matches for European favor.

Couldn't agree more. Over the years, Europe has usually dominated the tactical portion of the game, meaning pushouts, safeties, kicks, jumps and use of two-way shots. This has always earned them a lot of extra chances at the table relative to Team USA. Team Europe has consistently beaten the US to the shot over the last decade in the racks that are "fought for". That said, though, it was in this portion of the game where the US showed a little progress last December.

 

[West Point 1987]

Great Post, this is what I noticed from about 2006 onwards. I've watched every mosconi cup since 1998.i liked the early days. Even though America dominated. And back then, you couldn't see how thay wouldn't, continue keep winning every year. Once Europe cought up. There was no stopping them. I always wondered why, that next generation of great American players never really happened.
The one reason Im not a fan of the mosconi cup now. (even though I watch it every year)
It's not really about pool anymore. It's a circus!!!! The celebrations I also find too much.
It's not so much from USA, more Europe, its just over the top!! USA very chilled, but Europe too pumped up.I understand its created to make the event as big as possible. It's like who can shout the loudest!!!
What can be done to improve it? It about time asia took part, that would make it more interesting!!

A question for West Point 1987: Is that coaching system Europe have, has it been used in the American system yet?

Full disclosure, I'm an American retired Army officer...I never played on the Eurotour, but I knew several who did (having spent about 12 years in Europe--Germany, Italy, UK, Greece and Cyprus). I played amateur leagues that fed into the Eurotour at some point through qualifiers, so I ran into players and coaches all the time...the coaches I knew went through a very expensive, extensive training and qualification/certification system that took quite a while to complete. They have levels they work their way through until they reach the top. The BCA system and others here in the U.S. aren't even close.

But as good as they are, the real difference is the willingness of top players to use them throughout their career...I recently saw an interview with Albin Ouschan where he talked about spending several months with a new coach to work on his mechanics to get over a slump. I've personally watched Eurotour players spend hours on one monotonous drill...kind of like Shane doing 10 ball breaks for 6 hours straight. It pays off, but not many American players do it to that level--and despite what we all think, it shows.

 

[West Point 1987]

This is a great post. Thanks for the insight.

I agree, but with so many other distractions/activities for our young people to participate in, I'm not sure how you attract the athletes to pool. I mean, football, soccer, baseball, basketball, volleyball, lacrosse- travel teams, aau, heck most successful high school programs run year around nowadays. Even the non-athletic kids are going to space camp, robotics camp, drone camp, band camp, cheer camp, and on and on. Do most European countries have the sheer number and variety of youth sports involvement? I really don't know, but it is hard to imagine.

What is the system they developed? and how is it lucrative? I get that Filler, Ouchin, Gorst, et al. can make a great living at pool, just as SVB and likely Sky can, but can the 8th ranked Russian player make that much more than the 8th ranked US player? Can someone just inside the top 20 of Polish players make a living wage on pool alone?

I really don't know and am genuinely curious. Is the Eurotour allowing these European players to quit the 9 to 5 and focus solely on working with their pool coaches?

100% Johan brought a whole new attitude and confidence to the team. As good as JJ is, I am not sure he has the same presence with as Johan did. It is a shame they didn't let Johan leave on his own terms. I don't know if we would be having this discussion if the US had won the last 4 MC's

I'm not sure, but talking to some of them it sounded like they paid a lot deeper in the field than most U.S. open events...many of the countries subsidize the top players with stipends and expenses that allow them to play/work full time at pool; the national sports program. The Cypriot players that went to Eurotour events were part of the "national team" and got expenses paid to participate--but they all had day jobs, too, so I guess it depends on where you are. I'd love to know more about what the Polish, German, Dutch and Austrian players are getting in terms of subsidies, I suspect they're getting a decent hand.

 

[Cue Alchemist]

Full disclosure, I'm an American retired Army officer...I never played on the Eurotour, but I knew several who did (having spent about 12 years in Europe--Germany, Italy, UK, Greece and Cyprus). I played amateur leagues that fed into the Eurotour at some point through qualifiers, so I ran into players and coaches all the time...the coaches I knew went through a very expensive, extensive training and qualification/certification system that took quite a while to complete. They have levels they work their way through until they reach the top. The BCA system and others here in the U.S. aren't even close.

But as good as they are, the real difference is the willingness of top players to use them throughout their career...I recently saw an interview with Albin Ouschan where he talked about spending several months with a new coach to work on his mechanics to get over a slump. I've personally watched Eurotour players spend hours on one monotonous drill...kind of like Shane doing 10 ball breaks for 6 hours straight. It pays off, but not many American players do it to that level--and despite what we all think, it shows.

Thank very much for the insight. In my experience in the UK. Its not like the euro tour. Its more based on your years of playing. The really good young players are hungry, to take on those better then them. And it's that desire, to want to get at the top level players.

From what you you've said its a lot like snooker, where thay are constantly working with coaches and doing the hard 6 hours a day to get better. But the guys that actually make it to the big time, Are a very small Number.with pool I think your given more of a chance to do something!!

 

[JAM]

For American fans, in particular, DAZN is a huge deterrent to attracting fans forced to pay them to watch pool. We all know why. To add insult to injury, DAZN has raised their rates recently.

Meanwhile, pool in USA is taking a turn for the better. American junior players like Savannah Easton are using social media to attract fans and allow others to follow their pool journey, and it's working. Do a Google search with quotes around her name, "Savannah Easton," and she's a huge hit everywhere. Russian champion Fedor Gorst came to USA after being banned by the global pool organizations from competing, and he has not only gained a huge fan following, but he's raking in the dough, over $170,000 at this juncture in 2022, winning numerous American pool competitions. Pool seems to be thriving in USA. Yay!

The losers on the TV show "America's Got Talent" (AGT) have shared that their following and view rates on social media have gone as high as 20 million. Even though they lost the AGT competition, their careers have taken off, thanks to a good viewing platform with no outages and proper advertising well ahead of time to wet the appetites of viewers, old fans and new fans.

Matchroom with its beautiful venues and many, many staff to keep the Matchroom ship afloat is great for pool fans and professional pool players. Though the payouts pale in comparison to, say, professional snooker and other professional spots, I believe the payouts are commensurate with where pool is as a sport at this time. Matchroom is trying hard to grow the sport. One failure of the International Pool Tour (IPT) was their payouts started out too high. The IPT business platform was flawed from the start. And, yes, I know there's a bunch of Kevin Trudeau haters that will chime in here, but I'm pointing out only the payouts, IPT compared to Matchroom.

I don't believe there is a "secret sauce" to fix what's not working well for pool in 2022. I do, however, applaud everyone's efforts to effect a change for the better, even when such changes are sometimes met with negativity. In sum, social media works. DAZN does not, no matter how much whipped cream you put on the Matchroom hot dog. Pool needs a better showcase vehicle if it is to grow internationally. DAZN does not cut the mustard for pool in USA. Matchroom will not be gaining any new fans here in the States and may, in fact, be losing some loyal pool fans because of it.

 

[Cue Alchemist]

For American fans, in particular, DAZN is a huge deterrent to attracting fans forced to pay them to watch pool. We all know why. To add insult to injury, DAZN has raised their rates recently.

Meanwhile, pool in USA is taking a turn for the better. American junior players like Savannah Easton are using social media to attract fans and allow others to follow their pool journey, and it's working. Do a Google search with quotes around her name, "Savannah Easton," and she's a huge hit everywhere. Russian champion Fedor Gorst came to USA after being banned by the global pool organizations from competing, and he has not only gained a huge fan following, but he's raking in the dough, over $170,000 at this juncture in 2022, winning numerous American pool competitions. Pool seems to be thriving in USA. Yay!

The losers on the TV show "America's Got Talent" (AGT) have shared that their following and view rates on social media have gone as high as 20 million. Even though they lost the AGT competition, their careers have taken off, thanks to a good viewing platform with no outages and proper advertising well ahead of time to wet the appetites of viewers, old fans and new fans.

Matchroom with its beautiful venues and many, many staff to keep the Matchroom ship afloat is great for pool fans and professional pool players. Though the payouts pale in comparison to, say, professional snooker and other professional spots, I believe the payouts are commensurate with where pool is as a sport at this time. Matchroom is trying hard to grow the sport. One failure of the International Pool Tour (IPT) was their payouts started out too high. The IPT business platform was flawed from the start. And, yes, I know there's a bunch of Kevin Trudeau haters that will chime in here, but I'm pointing out only the payouts, IPT compared to Matchroom.

I don't believe there is a "secret sauce" to fix what's not working well for pool in 2022. I do, however, applaud everyone's efforts to effect a change for the better, even when such changes are sometimes met with negativity. In sum, social media works. DAZN does not, no matter how much whipped cream you put on the Matchroom hot dog. Pool needs a better showcase vehicle if it is to grow internationally. DAZN does not cut the mustard for pool in USA. Matchroom will not be gaining any new fans here in the States and may, in fact, be losing some loyal pool fans because of it.

One of the things I really like, about the matchroom events, its there to give anyone, good enough an opportunity to do something in the sport. Whether that's old or young. There is always a chance. It's a tough school though. I think, there should be more done around the world championships. That should be the event of the year. But everything seems to be geared towards promoting the mosconi.

 

[garczar]

We got young players coming up... Guy

Not many and few are spending much time on 9ft. tables. Until there is a national-level development program the US will lag behind. Hell, Poland could field their own MC team. That's how strong their action is.