SJM at the 2023 Derby City Catastrophe

[lfigueroa]

I remember pages of comments on this site that Jayson Shaw was playing incorrect patterns and will never do well in straight pool Efren played sophisticated patterns which no one thought about that turned out easier than the regular thinking... I remember some knowledgable commentators making comments to this effect, it not my own thinking.

IMO, Jayson was playing a lot of “wrong” patterns and outran the nuts.

The thing about the “right” or traditional patterns is that they enhance your odds of consistently putting up long runs. You disregard them at your peril. The day Jayson comes with a more tried and true approach is the day we see him break 1,000.

As to Efren, his 14.1 patterns were ghastly but his shooting tremendous.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Badpenguin]

While it's true that when Filler entered the arena for the Donny Mills match at perhaps 1:45 AM, he looked pale and spent, he still played well in what I believe was a 9-3 victory.

In his match with Pagulayan, which started at about 3:30 AM, he looked like he'd caught a second wind and played one of his best matches. It was a great match with wonderful play from both. I'd guess Alex shot .930 and Josh shot .900. At 6-6, Alex played a good safety on the one-ball but Josh kicked it in. The cue ball ended up against the rail and his subsequent miss on the two ball pretty much settled things against a Pagulayan who was playing superbly.

No, he did not play like an APA 6.

Are we talking 2022, or 2023?

 

[sjm]

Are we talking 2022, or 2023?

Talking 2023. Rest assured, the match times cited have never occurred before.

 

[VVP]

Definitely not the case. Combining pocketing and pattern play together is different than considering pattern play alone. If you combine the two, Earl is in the discussion.

I believe i understand where you are coming from and I agree. I guess you will define pattern play as always being on the right side of the ball leading to good positions and easy shots without having to rely on shotmaking abilities like Jayson. However, it is difficult to accept that the best one-pocket player in the world where you have to have ultimate control of both the object and cue balls would not be able to create simple patterns IF he wanted to. Has to be good reasons for Efren to play how he played and I am not qualified to give an opinion on that. Maybe he saw his way as more efficient and more likely to produce a win which you might attribute to the combination of skills you mentioned. Personally, I would like to win rather than look smooth and lose. A good test would be see how the pattern players stacked up against Efren in terms of wins in matches they competed in.

 

[sjm]

A good test would be see how the pattern players stacked up against Efren in terms of wins in matches they competed in.

No, it wouldn't. That would tell you who the better player is, not who is the better pattern player. Pattern play is one of many ingredients of good play. Who breaks better? Who kicks better? Who plays better safeties? and numerous other questions are every bit as relevant when comparing players.

What we can say for sure is that the four top pattern players that I mentioned (Hall, Souquet, Rempe, Appleton) are all in the Hall of Fame with Efren. Not one of them kicked as well or played defense as well than the greatest tactical player the game has ever seen. Just because they played the patterns a bit above Efren, it doesn't mean they played as well as the GOAT. They didn't.

 

[Badpenguin]

Talking 2023. Rest assured, the match times cited have never occurred before.

I was talking 2022, lol. But I could be misremembering the situation. My recall is that there was another wee hours of the morning final and one of the players was the walking dead. But I’m old and my memory can be unreliable

 

[sjm]

I was talking 2022, lol. But I could be misremembering the situation. My recall is that there was another wee hours of the morning final and one of the players was the walking dead. But I’m old and my memory can be unreliable

Yes, you are mistaken. Lasy year's Derby didn't go terribly late, and Filler got as far as the final before bowing to Francisco Sanchez-Ruiz.

 

[VVP]

Yes, you are mistaken. Lasy year's Derby didn't go terribly late, and Filler got as far as the final before bowing to Francisco Sanchez-Ruiz.

I might be wrong, but I seem to remember that because of time constraints Filler only had minutes between the semi-final and the finals whereas FSR had a break during the time Filler was playing. I remember Filler saying he was tired.

 

[ALT_ESV]

2022 9 Ball between Shaw and Filler started at 9:06pm.

2022 9 Ball semi finals between FSR and Roland Garcia started at 10:38pm.

2022 9 Ball Finals between Filler and FSR started at 12:26am and ended around 1:20am. I looked up the videos I taken last year for the times.

 

[sjm]

I might be wrong, but I seem to remember that because of time constraints Filler only had minutes between the semi-final and the finals whereas FSR had a break during the time Filler was playing. I remember Filler saying he was tired.

It might be true but it doesn't sound right. In 2022 Filler drew the bye into the final while FSR had to beat Roland Garcia to get to the final. My recollection is that Filler had more time to refuel than FSR before the 2022 final, which did not start very late.

 

[VVP]

It might be true but it doesn't sound right. In 2022 Filler drew the bye into the final while FSR had to beat Roland Garcia to get to the final. My recollection is that Filler had more time to refuel than FSR before the 2022 final, which did not start very late.

Yes, you are right. ALT_ESV posted the play times above. It might have been FSR with the little break between semi and finals. Not sure when FSR semi ended.

 

[Badpenguin]

2022 9 Ball between Shaw and Filler started at 9:06pm.

2022 9 Ball semi finals between FSR and Roland Garcia started at 10:38pm.

2022 9 Ball Finals between Filler and FSR started at 12:26am and ended around 1:20am. I looked up the videos I taken last year for the times.

This matches my somewhat vague recollection. My opinion was that Filler was not up to his usual performance level because of the late hour and many hours of continuous play.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I did some searching a couple days ago and came across a thread at onepocket.org, where the DCC “had” implemented the Grady 4 ball rule for the one pocket matches. It was official from the DCC. Then, a few days later, it was rescinded.

I think that must have been one year after another very late 9 ball final, because people in that thread were saying about the same as this thread.

 

[jay helfert]

Fair enough. In recent times, I think Souquet was best in this regard, with Appleton and Pagulayan not far behind. Even pattern beauty is in the eye of the beholder, LOL.

You would have loved watching Lassiter play. He would make all kind of faces and contortions, and play near perfect position shot after shot. If he was two inches out of line he would put the tip of the cue on the table where he wanted the cue ball and shake his head like he made a terrible error.

He truly expected to hit every shot perfectly. And he probably did 90% of the time. Unquestionably the best pool player for a good twenty years, acknowledged by his peers. This included 9-Ball and Straight Pool, not One Pocket. The first this came into question was the emergence of Harold Worst, who offered to play anyone 9-Ball for 10,000.

 

[jay helfert]

I did some searching a couple days ago and came across a thread at onepocket.org, where the DCC “had” implemented the Grady 4 ball rule for the one pocket matches. It was official from the DCC. Then, a few days later, it was rescinded.

I think that must have been one year after another very late 9 ball final, because people in that thread were saying about the same as this thread.

I vaguely recall that as well, maybe seven or eight years ago. I almost convinced Greg to do it. He initially agreed and after consulting with some prominent players, changed his mind.

 

[9BallKY]

I was talking 2022, lol. But I could be misremembering the situation. My recall is that there was another wee hours of the morning final and one of the players was the walking dead. But I’m old and my memory can be unreliable

I believe the year sky beat Aranas in the finals that is wasn’t over till the wee hrs of the morning.

 

[AtLarge]

I believe the year sky beat Aranas in the finals that is wasn’t over till the wee hrs of the morning.

True. 2019. By my notes it started at 1:55 am and ended at 3:15 am (DCC times). They played two consecutive rounds and the first one didn't start until nearly 1 am.

 

[AtLarge]

True. 2019. By my notes it started at 1:55 am and ended at 3:15 am (DCC times). They played two consecutive rounds and the first one didn't start until nearly 1 am.

And the prior year, 2018, the Melling d. Morra final match also ended at about 3:15 am.

 

[lfigueroa]

I believe i understand where you are coming from and I agree. I guess you will define pattern play as always being on the right side of the ball leading to good positions and easy shots without having to rely on shotmaking abilities like Jayson. However, it is difficult to accept that the best one-pocket player in the world where you have to have ultimate control of both the object and cue balls would not be able to create simple patterns IF he wanted to. Has to be good reasons for Efren to play how he played and I am not qualified to give an opinion on that. Maybe he saw his way as more efficient and more likely to produce a win which you might attribute to the combination of skills you mentioned. Personally, I would like to win rather than look smooth and lose. A good test would be see how the pattern players stacked up against Efren in terms of wins in matches they competed in.

I think in the case of Efren it's just that he hasn't played that much 14.1.

Once you see it you learn there's a certain logic to the patterns. Then it boils down to being able to execute, which of course he could do.

Lou Figueroa

 

[1pocket]

I think the size of the pockets was an experiment. Some folks will always think smaller is better but the truth is the vast majority of players don't play on tables with itty-bitty pockets and don't know how to adjust. And IMO, saying you'll keep the small pockets for the TV table when the whole event is being played on 4.5" pockets is a bad call. Players should be able to go from the main floor of the event onto the streaming table and play on the same equipment.

However, is that really true? I always heard that because of the TV lighting, that table plays warmer and drier than the other tables anyway -- more like new cloth (or newer cloth, anyway). Given the way those conditions tend to make a table play a little looser, I wonder if 4-1/4" on the TV table might actually play more like the equivalent of 4-1/2" out on the tournament floor.

I am with you if you are saying you prefer 4-1/2" as the standard though! Personally, I think that is a good size, even for One Pocket, to maintain a good mix between offense and defense. Fans like offense I believe, and TD's certainly do also lol.

A lot of people don't know that one year the Jansco's tightened the pockets for their big Johnston City tournament. There were zero 100 ball runs that year, and the very next year, they went back to the larger pockets.