SJM at the 2023 Derby City Catastrophe

Sheldon

dontneednostinkintitle
Silver Member
Any Derby organisors on this forum?
Wonder if they take constructive criticism well or not.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Pl
Agreed that Fedor is on the short list of the greatest pattern players along with guys like Buddy Hall, Jim Rempe, Ralf Souquet, and Darren Appleton.

I still feel Josh is a slightly better tactical player than Fedor.
Please never leave Efren out of the equation here. The man was (and is) so smooth he often gets overlooked as the all time great he truly is. Just go back and watch some of his matches on YouTube. No one today or yesterday played pool like Efren. The man was smooth as silk the way he caressed the balls into the hole and guided the cue ball to its intended destination! I loved the way his cue ball always seemed to slowly creep into perfect position.

His pace of play is also impeccable, never rushed or hurried, every graceful movement designed to prepare himself for the next shot, with no wasted motions. He serenaded the table and mesmerized us while doing so. The man was more than a mere pool player. He was a pool artist, painting perfect pictures for us to enjoy.

Even at 68 he remains one of the greats of the game!
 
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jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Something I wish I'd written is an apology. When I left the tournament room to go to my hotel and pack my bags to be ready for my car service a few hours later, I intended to return, but when I finished packing, I thought it wise to opt for a few hours of sleep, a decision I don't regret. What I regret is my failure to say goodbye to some friends. I also must add that I let down a few with whom I'd promised to sweat a match. They know who they are, and I'm sorry.
Stu, you never need to apologize. You truly are a gift to the pool world and us at AZ. Thank you!
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Yours, as always, is a well-reasoned post, but in 2020, the majors weren't even played because of COVID and in 2022, Gorst had to skip most of the majors because of the WPA Russian ban, which kept him out of the World 10-ball, the WPC, the UK Open, the European Open and the World Games (which is arguably more important than any major other than the WPC). Fedor's performance at the International Open was breathtaking, with a bronze in the 9-ball and a gold in the 10-ball, in which he beat four members of the European Mosconi team in succession. Bemoaning his lack of majors in the last three years is, in my view, unfair.

Finally, if you asked me whether it was harder to win the US Open 9ball or the Master of the Table at Derby City, I'd really have to think about it for a while. His two consecutive Masters of the Table at Derby City put him in very rarefied air, as the only others that have ever accomplished the feat are Efren Reyes, Shane Van Boening and Alex Pagulayan, three of the greatest players that ever lived.

Fedor is a very special player and no player in the world can spot him in any game played on a pool table. I cannot say the same of any other player but Filler.

Fedor and Filler are the best players to come along in our sport in the last fifteen years. Best to enjoy watching them do their thing and thank the pool gods for the opportunity to do so.
Nobody ever gave Dennis a spot at any game!
 

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yep. Folks the pro pool landscape is changing fast and mostly for the better. For this event to remain relevant with top players this yrs shitshow can't go on. It needs a top-to-bottom refresh in all areas. I also agree 100% with those that brought up the tight pockets. Fine if you have nothing but 700+Fargo pros but most of the field (aka the dead$ that fund the event) don't play on them on a regular basis.
Seems DCC wants the prestige of a professional event and at the same time culture and funding of a high participation amateur event.

One way to keep the numbers high and avoid endurance tests for the top players is to have designated high-level players enter at round 5 or 6 or something. Perhaps you enter the event at round 6 if you are either over 700 (or 730 or some other number) OR you reached that round previous year
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Chinese 8 ball might be a better game for you if you think 4.5” pockets are too big.
Sometimes I think me and my buddies invented Chinese 8 ball in the 70s. Pool balls on 5x10 snooker tables. Anyway snooker pockets tend to eliminate rail shots so I lost interest in 'em. Great practice though.

This is what I'd like to see in pool pockets:


IMG_0210.jpg


No jaws, no shelf, just aperture. Rail shots at any speed you can hit the opening.
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Seems DCC wants the prestige of a professional event and at the same time culture and funding of a high participation amateur event.

One way to keep the numbers high and avoid endurance tests for the top players is to have designated high-level players enter at round 5 or 6 or something. Perhaps you enter the event at round 6 if you are either over 700 (or 730 or some other number) OR you reached that round previous year
Interesting idea. One downside would be it would slow things down just a bit as you wouldn't have as many short matches due to extreme mismatches. I kind of like the idea of having a chance to play a few rounds before running into a killer, but pros playing 15 rounds with several early warm-ups may actually be appealing to some of them.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
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Silver Member
Interesting idea. One downside would be it would slow things down just a bit as you wouldn't have as many short matches due to extreme mismatches. I kind of like the idea of having a chance to play a few rounds before running into a killer, but pros playing 15 rounds with several early warm-ups may actually be appealing to some of them.
With a slightly different buy-back format you could have 1024 total entries+buy-backs and the winner might play only 10 rounds.
 

jason

Unprofessional everything
Silver Member
Seems DCC wants the prestige of a professional event and at the same time culture and funding of a high participation amateur event.

One way to keep the numbers high and avoid endurance tests for the top players is to have designated high-level players enter at round 5 or 6 or something. Perhaps you enter the event at round 6 if you are either over 700 (or 730 or some other number) OR you reached that round previous year
This is a good suggestion. As I have said in my previous posts, the players should never be required to play 27 hours straight. The tournament cannot allow this to happen again. It must be managed better. As a player and a fan, I love having to opportunity to play a big dog in the tournament, win or lose. I'm dead money but that's why I want to play. If the field is packed, then beating a few other dead money-ers to get the chance to play a pro makes it that much sweeter. I think your suggestion is a very reasonable option that most could agree with.
 

jason

Unprofessional everything
Silver Member
Gorst was #2 Fargo for some time even before DCC.
The benchmark for "best player" in other sports (like tennis, golf, snooker) is performance in majors. NOT rankings not ratings, not prizemoney won, not money game races to 100000 won :LOL:
And Gorst performance in majors has been lacklustre. He has not won a major since his 2019 World 9 Ball win and his best performance was just semifinal finish in International Open last year. Sure he has not played the majors in Europe but he has played a lot of majors total 6 majors past 2 years (International Open x2, US Openx2, World 8 ballx1, World 9 ballx1).
He is 22 now . At same age, Filler won 3 majors already.
Gorst is arguably the best all round player now but in the pool universe, the majors are in 8B/9B/10B which have the strongest monster fields 128 of best players in world, at least 20 Fargorate 800+ players. It follows that the best player is the best performer in majors. Last year that was FSR. People always forget the other guy Albin who was the best player of past 2 years.
This year my guess is Albin or Filler cos they are big match players with extreme self belief/self confidence and are better closers than Gorst. :LOL:

View attachment 685329
What benchmark you choose is an individual choice. Everyone has their own opinion. In other sports, the number of rings seams to be a huge benchmark. MJ has six and is considered by most to be the best ever. Bill Russel has 11. Larry Bird has 3 yet MJ never beat Larry despite being in his prime and scoring 50+ points. There is no question MJ and Lebron are better athletes than Larry, but are they better basketball players? Depends on who you ask and how you measure. Let's not forget Fedor is only 22! Refer to Stu's post on the majors and covid. He took the words out of my mouth.
 

jason

Unprofessional everything
Silver Member
I don’t care if he is the next coming of SVB, he was out line with his post slamming Stu!
I 100% agree Jay. We appreciate all of your knowledge and stories as well. If anyone bashed you, I would do the same for you. I don't know where this internet troll is coming from, but he's just that a troll. He's not the first and won't be the last.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Gotcha. Thanks, Jay.
And compare the length of their respective careers. Dennis was already giving spots to top players 12-15 years ago. He beat Darren Appleton, giving up the eight and nine in Ten Ball several times. His standard game with just about anybody this side of Shane was the eight ball (nine ball to the champions) in Ten Ball, and they couldn’t get there.

His hit list is a who’s who of the games top players of this era. Pretty much only Shane would play him even, and TRex and Efren in One Pocket. He spotted the rest of the pool world! Filler and Gorst are great players, and may yet prove to be his equal.

Yes, the Tier One Filipinos could play even with Dennis and often did when they were back home. But Dennis was always The Man among them, the heir apparent to Parica. Alex and Dennis remained friendly and rarely gambled. Call it mutual respect.
 
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sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Pl

Please never leave Efren out of the equation here. The man was (and is) so smooth he often gets overlooked as the all time great he truly is. Just go back and watch some of his matches on YouTube. No one today or yesterday played pool like Efren. The man was smooth as silk the way he caressed the balls into the hole and guided the cue ball to its intended destination! I loved the way his cue ball always seemed to slowly creep into perfect position.

His pace of play is also impeccable, never rushed or hurried, every graceful movement designed to prepare himself for the next shot, with no wasted motions. He serenaded the table and mesmerized us while doing so. The man was more than a mere pool player. He was a pool artist, painting perfect pictures for us to enjoy.

Even at 68 he remains one of the greats of the game!
Yes, but I didn't leave him off the list of all-time greats. I left him of my short list of all-time great pattern players. I'd actually rate Pagulayan above him as a pattern player.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Yes, but I didn't leave him off the list of all-time greats. I left him of my short list of all-time great pattern players. I'd actually rate Pagulayan above him as a pattern player.
Efren did play some unique patterns, but they seemed to work. I would characterize his pattern play as Advanced, only applicable for the very best players. For simplicity and economy of movement my three best I’ve ever seen were Lassiter, Don Watson and Buddy Hall.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Efren did play some unique patterns, but they seemed to work. I would characterize his pattern play as Advanced, only applicable for the very best players. For simplicity and economy of movement my three best I’ve ever seen were Lassiter, Don Watson and Buddy Hall.
Fair enough. In recent times, I think Souquet was best in this regard, with Appleton and Pagulayan not far behind. Even pattern beauty is in the eye of the beholder, LOL.
 

VVP

Registered
Fair enough. In recent times, I think Souquet was best in this regard, with Appleton and Pagulayan not far behind. Even pattern beauty is in the eye of the beholder, LOL.
I remember pages of comments on this site that Jayson Shaw was playing incorrect patterns and will never do well in straight pool 😁 Efren played sophisticated patterns which no one thought about that turned out easier than the regular thinking... I remember some knowledgable commentators making comments to this effect, it not my own thinking.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Efren played sophisticated patterns which no one thought about that turned out easier than the regular thinking.
Definitely not the case. Combining pocketing and pattern play together is different than considering pattern play alone. If you combine the two, Earl is in the discussion.
 
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