How do these diamond tables play so badly? vid

poolscholar said:
Clearly RKC can't accept other possibilities such as the rails have been replaced or some sort of install issue. Well it was worth a shot to learn what went wrong here but ego wins out in this case
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How about you stop running your mouth about something you clearly know NOTHING about, and go buy a damn bottle of Armor All and do what I said!!! IF you have the BALLS to do that, make SURE you post the results!!!!
 
ShortBusRuss said:
These are more than likely old Red Label Diamonds, which had a design flaw where the rails were slightly angled downward at a greater angle than optimal. The modern Diamonds bank great. I had an early 9 foot Red Label that severely jacked up my banking and position play when I lived in Florida. The year I practiced very heavily before DCC after coming back from Iraq, I ran a 5 pack on Joey Gray, and had John Morra down 2-1 in the first round of the One Pocket (the next round after he won the Banks). I lost both matches due to the bad habits I had developed on the Red Label. Got too thin on a ball in the 6th rack against Joey, and just about jumped out of my skin trying to "hold" it (due to the need to hit such shots with extreme spin and/or perfect speed on the Red Label...), and in the One Pocket against Morra, I got a few opportunities at 45-ish degree cross corners to finish him off, and simply was unable to adjust, as those particular banks are EXTREMELY speed sensitive on Red Label Diamonds.

And for the record... I got a Matchroom-used Diamond 4 1/4' pocket table coming in a little under two weeks here in Germany. I have never been so excited in my life!
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I hope your house is bone dry:)
 
poolscholar said:
It really is a mystery how bad these play. Do you think Diamond is beyond changing to cheaper materials? I wonder why they don't use artemis on all their tables
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At my age, and from what I've seen in my lifetime,....... I believe anything is possible! 🙃
Could someone ask Efren??
 
I
The_JV said:
I don't see this "right" english applied to the shot. Cue is barely off center in view because of the camera angle. Even with that pointed out. Checking a CB with inside with such a steep angle generally just skids and has nearly no effect on fresh cloth.

Frame before strike:
View attachment 718945
Player does have horrible aim for someone attempting to demonstrate a table banking short. Clearly he hits the rail above the diamond.
Frame before bank:
View attachment 718946
Despite the horrible aim, this ball banks well short. Way more than what geometry tells us it should.
Frame before second rail:
View attachment 718948

I don't care how many times you've saved money with Geico or stayed in a Holiday Inn Expressview. This ball banks incredibly short and I have never witness humidity or ball condition produce such behaviour. However this is the norm on the red label offerings.
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I Guess FR 650 means something different in Texas
 
I swear, dealing with you people is waste of time! Don't want to take my word for what the problem is, then maybe you'll learn something in this post!!!! I'm done with this thread as it's a stupid waste of my time!!!

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Pool Table Humidity Effects​

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  4. Pool Table Humidity Effects

How does an increase in humidity affect how a table plays?​

With more humid conditions, the following changes occur:
  1. Sidespin “takes” more on the rails (i.e., the ball “bites” more due to increased friction).
  2. Draw shots are more difficult due to increased “drag” (due to the cloth playing “stickier” with increased sliding friction).
  3. The pockets play “tighter” because rebound is “shorter” (and rail-induced spin “takes” more) off the pocket facings.
  4. The cloth plays slower (because of increased rolling resistance), and sidespin wears off faster.
  5. Banks go “shorter” (due to more friction).
  6. The CB can hop off the cushions more (and this delays post rebound curve, making the effective bank angle even shorter).
  7. The cushions can play bouncier and faster (since the nose of the cushion grabs the balls more).
  8. The balls can throw more (see ball condition effects), and there can be more cling/skid/kick (because the balls tend to get more dirty and hold chalk residue more).
  9. Swerve happens sooner, so net CB deflection (the combined effects of squirt and swerve, or squerve) will be less
 
poolscholar said:
Guys I tried this on multiple tables with the same result. There's no English being applied. I finished high in the state tournament I know how to hit a ball with center. I generally test most tables before a match because I use kicking systems. I've played in humid conditions, dry conditions, all over the country on diamond tables. These are nowhere near a typical diamond table
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How do you explain being so far off from the diamond if you're such a great player?
 
iusedtoberich said:
As confirmed by the Cobra, who is the person who designed these blue label rails, the table in the video and this tournament are stock tables from the Diamond factory. Not hacked by a sub-par mechanic.

Diamond rails for whatever reason seem to be "more" susceptible to environmental factors than Gold Crown rails, and most other tables. This is both the 7' tables with the Diamond Black cushions, and the 9' tables with Artemis cushions.

That's been my experience since the pool bug hit me hard in the early 1990s. Diamonds "in general" bank shorter and quicker than GC's. But close enough where its not a big deal. Even when both are in the exact same room. I think most people will agree to that. However, when it gets more humid, the Diamonds seem to change more than the GC's. I see way more variation in how diamonds' play in different environments than how GC's play. I think if a GC was under water it would not play like the Diamond in this video.

The worst case I saw of this in person was at the Tunica DCC spinoff tournament in around 2012. The balls were coming off the rails even worse than what is shown in the video in this first post. Everyone was complaining, and I'm talking about the legit pros, not bangers like me. One pro after his match even went up to the tournament desk to complain to the diamond mechanic (I forgot his name, I think it was Scott...) The mechanic went out to the table he just played on and checked it out. Of course, there was nothing wrong with the table. I think he did it just to appease the player. I saw this with my own eyes.

All you guys saying Diamonds rails play great must be playing in cherry conditions. I'm actually quite surprised more people don't post videos like this.

I was actually watching a few minutes of a match with Savanah the Road Runner a few days ago, and the rails on a few shots were bouncing insanely fast. I was thinking to link the shot but it would just have been met with garbage like "she's a kid, doesn't know how to play, she hit the ball wrong, etc."
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The cushions have more contact volume than Superspeed or other cushions designed for barboxes?
Do barboxes really need K55 type cushions?
 
The one thing Dr. Dave failed to mention in his analysis, and that is the effects of different types of cloth, as they also have an influence over friction. Woolen vs Worsted are completely different in ball speed and spin induced English, even without the effects of humidity!!!
 
realkingcobra said:
View attachment 718956your humidity levels are way lower than they are in TX!
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Don't kid yourself... The general perception that we ride dog sleds to work and it snows 300days of the year is bunk. Speaking from a lifetime of experience. It does get extremely humid in lower half of Ontario.

The province is 40% larger than Texas and average 80% humidity for August. That's average not peak. Several continuous days in high 90s is quite common during the summer months.
 
realkingcobra said:
That mechanic was Paul Smith, as he called me to tell me the balls we hopping off the rails onnthe 10fts, and what could they do about it. I told him, as I've said here many times, the humidity is the cause of the problem. So, Paul took my advice, went and bought a spray bottle of Armor All, sprayed in on a rag, and wiped the nose of the cushions down on ALL the rails!!! Guess what, PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

You people DONT listen worth a shit!!!

John Barton called me about the same problem in his pool room, right after the tables were recovered, TWO and only TWO tables were banking like hell, and of course, right next to the door! John took my advice and guess what, PROBLEM SOLVED!!!
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Yes, it was Paul! He was awesome to talk with. 1000% they didn't wipe down the rails in the separate "action" building at Tunica. I saw a bank pool match there that would have made your head spin. Between Manny Chau and I can't remember the name of the other guy, he's a well known "mid-level" pro that is a banks player. Both players wanted to quit the balls were all hopping off the rails. But they ended up finishing their set.

Serious question as obviously we have both been on opposite sides of this for over 10 years...

Do you have room owners with GC's call you for the same issues? And is the solution the same? I've just never heard of anyone complaining about this in the GC era. It was never an issue until Diamonds came on the scene.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Both places below are nice places to visit and play, and my comments on the tables are absolutely no reflection on the establishments.

The bar in Philly suburbs is called:
Marty Magee's Irish Pub, located at 1110 Lincoln Ave, Prospect Park, PA 19076. They have 3 or 4 total tables, all 7' Diamonds. Some are red, some are blue. I played there 2 or 3 times about 4 years ago. I believe the pool time is free. They had some decent players and I played some $50 sets.

The pool room in South Jersey is called "The Thirsty Hound & South Jersey Billiards". 600 N White Horse Pike. Somerdale, NJ 08083. They have a section on the far side of the room that is separated with a half-height partition from the rest of the room. It has qty 6 7' Diamonds, arranged end to end. I think about half are blue, and half are red in that section. They have a Friday night chip tournament that is a lot of fun. I played there about 10 times in the past few years, but its been about a year since I've been back. I believe the chip tournament used to be on that section of the room, but has since moved to the main section. I can't recall if the main section had all blue, or both blue and red.
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Prospect is a hike. I hope to meet you someday and hit some. But it cannot be on a Diamond in case we both like it. That will destroy this thread. The way I'm hitting lately I'd like a totally FK'd up table....... alibis wanted.
 
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The_JV said:
Don't kid yourself... The general perception that we ride dog sleds to work and it snows 300days of the year is bunk. Speaking from a lifetime of experience. It does get extremely humid in lower half of Ontario.

The province is 40% larger than Texas and average 80% humidity for August. That's average not peak. Several continuous days in high 90s is quite common during the summer months.
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And any pool tables already installed and in use, have had plenty of time to acclimate to their environment. Tables brought in for tournaments, set up, then taken back out again, in a space that don't normally have tables, like in a convention center, that's a different ball game! AND any tables up in your area near the doorways, are still subject to the effects of humidity! And I'll tell you another source of humidity, LOTS AND LOTS of people standing around innthe SAME rooms a bunch of tournament tables are set up in. Human body's sweat, that sweat evaporates, which creates additional moisture in the air, which then effects the cloth on the pool tables!!!!
 
realkingcobra said:
Who the hell buys them??
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Do they even sell them?
The point is Diamond should be big enough to go to Goodyear or other rubber makers to get their cushions made.
I suggest superspeed profile but better composition. 😂
As for barboxes, maybe a K66 type.
Dunno about U-23.
 
JoeyInCali said:
And Efren has a Diamond table in his dirt floor room in the Philippines. 😂
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Funny, aren't the Philippine's famous for being super humid? And all those tables are outside on dirt floors (that holds the moisture) with chickens running around. Yet, they don't play crazy short and crazy boingy off the rails.

Cobra: Why is this so?
 
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