C. J. Wiley - A Touch of Inside

sigep1967 said:
PJ I think what CJ was saying if you aim at the fartherest makeable point of the pocket and you make sure you cue a touch to inside as long as you hit "inside" you have more of the pocket to make the ball. If that makes sense. I have palyed around iwth it from time to time and it does work but what I can't do is take it from my home table with clean balls and slick cloth and then go to pool hall with dirty balls and dirty cloth as the squirt is totally different.
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Yes, he advises to aim a little full and use TOI squirt to make the OB go center pocket, claiming that "eliminates" half the errors.

Nonsense then and now. All it does is add squirt/throw variables to the aiming calculation.

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, he advise to aim a little full and use TOI squirt to make the OB go center pocket, claiming that "eliminates" half the errors.

Nonsense then and now. All it does is add squirt/throw variables to the aiming calculation.

pj
chgo
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Have you ever tried it? Instead of arguing about it try it and see what you think. Once you get dialed in it does work amazing well but like I said i had trouble changing equipment but then I don't have his talent either.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You don't remember CJ saying that TOI reduces the margin of stroke error? It was his main selling point.

I can't find any of his posts now - were they deleted? What was his AZB name?

pj
chgo
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Here’s one of his posts that mentions margin of error:

Post in thread 'Question for CJ Wiley about TOI'
https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/question-for-cj-wiley-about-toi.311922/post-4069905

He hasn’t visited the forums since Dec ‘21 - at least not while logged in.
 
What is curious (to me) in the OP video is that for some of the shots...I paid attention the to spin of the CB and it seemed to not always match match the TOI he said he was applying.

This is the first part of that run out video that has his explanation of concept.


7:40 if this video is the most important part of his concept...IMO........and.......He goes on to say at (8:22) what is my biggest take away from the concept.....which I agree with and use 100%...but in a slightly different way than CJ applies it.....The abstract part of my brain gets what he is saying but my linear brain makes me apply it in a way my head won't explode.

He says (7:40) that even pros make stroking errors.....and his method helps eliminate on side of those stroking errors.... He goes on to say the important part is don't hit the "wrong" side of the CB.....I agree with that 100%...I just apply the method slightly different than CJ does.......I apply it by setting up center CB but "err" to the right or left on shots that require precision in that direction....Example if I am hitting a follow shot two rails out but I want to make sure I don't put any kill English on it to lengthen the angle I will err to inside (running) English.....or If I am cutting a ball down the rail...I err to outside English to help the ball take the shot line down the rail better.....It is actually just more of a feel thing than an actual hit with a TOI or TOO (in my application of the method)

My disconnect is regarding the pocketing of balls aspect....If you set up center ball and err either way (slightly).... with a solid bridge hand the BHE compensates and you have a wide range of margin of error....I don't think purposely setting up with TOI increases that margin of error for pocketing the ball.
 
BRKNRUN said:
I don't think purposely setting up with TOI increases that margin of error for pocketing the ball.
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Right - there's no magic fix for stroke error.

I think the important lesson here is "pros aren't necessarily good instructors - don't automatically believe everything they say".

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
“TOI makes the pockets play almost twice as big.”
- CJ Wiley

Utter nonsense. I get how it can seem that way if you only think it halfway through (and have DVDs to sell)…

pj
chgo
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His perspective regarding everything about pool is more than likely a lot different than yours or mine. Now, I don't know if this story is true or not but in 1903 when the Wright brothers flew for a short distance and time, one of them (Orville or Wilbur) said: "This ain't nuthin', folks. I'm gonna predict that man will fly and land on the moon in about 65, 66 years."

Those in attendance laughed, howled, and rolled on the floor with some of them pissing their pants and crying from laughing so hard. A reporter from the New York Times, Albert E. Johnson, wrote a column about the absurdity of the claim. A few years before he died, Albert had a son around '47 or '48 but continued to rant and belittle the Wright brothers and their claim.

I don't know what the first name of the son was but in '69 the first men from Earth landed on the moon, only 66 years gone by! So, the moral to the story is...(make up your own moral to the story and how it might apply to pool and TOI)
 
sigep1967 said:
PJ still haven't tried it huh lol. I get it you got sand in your vag about it for some unknown reason but won't try it or at least wouldn't admit it if you did and it worked lol.
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I haven't tried jumping off a building to prove gravity doesn't exist either. That's about the level of absurdity here.

pj <- must be the sand
chgo
 
What is absurd is your inability to let anyone have a discussion about a possible way of looking at a shot without you saying it is wrong. I bet you are fun at parties lol. PJ " I am sorry mamm but you made the cheese dip 5 degrees too hot so it won't stay on the chip" or " I am sorry but you put .025 oz too much vermouth in my martini why would you think that was right."
They guy just has a different way of looking at the game and since it is not "your" way you can't stand it and have to berate anyone who thinks it might be useful.
 
sigep1967 said:
What is absurd is your inability to let anyone have a discussion about a possible way of looking at a shot without you saying it is wrong.
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I don't care how you "look at it". I'm trying to help you tell the difference between what's merely a different view and what's misleading nonsense.

pj
chgo
 
I mess around with it every once in awhile and seems to work well on certain shots. But really Ive been just trying to use my eyes lately, see the line and contact point and stroke, you know play the game. Sometimes I find myself out of stroke and then I go back to fundaments or trying things like this for the day, honestly any kind of aiming or system IMHO just truly gets you to lock in your senses and do what you'r supposed to do, pocket the ball. Sometimes we get lazy and just go walking at them expecting them to fall in every time, consistency is key with fundamentals. And please don't forget to have fun.
 
CJ definitely made things work for himself. I think he made pool harder the way he played if he is speaking honestly but whatever, it worked for him. BHE works for a lot of people too. Easiest to apply and the worst form of english to use.

The closer we hit to center cue ball the less effect an error makes. There is nothing horrible that happens if we hit center and meant to use a touch of something. The main thing that people who want to hit to the side seem to fear is crossing over the cue ball centerline. What happens if we cross over the cue ball centerline? Relating to the cue ball path, very little, much less than the same amount of error at say 1.5 tips out. Not as critical but anytime we don't hit perfectly it has greater effect the further we are away from center hit of spheres. No getting around that.

BRKNRUN said:
What is curious (to me) in the OP video is that for some of the shots...I paid attention the to spin of the CB and it seemed to not always match match the TOI he said he was applying.

This is the first part of that run out video that has his explanation of concept.


7:40 if this video is the most important part of his concept...IMO........and.......He goes on to say at (8:22) what is my biggest take away from the concept.....which I agree with and use 100%...but in a slightly different way than CJ applies it.....The abstract part of my brain gets what he is saying but my linear brain makes me apply it in a way my head won't explode.

He says (7:40) that even pros make stroking errors.....and his method helps eliminate on side of those stroking errors.... He goes on to say the important part is don't hit the "wrong" side of the CB.....I agree with that 100%...I just apply the method slightly different than CJ does.......I apply it by setting up center CB but "err" to the right or left on shots that require precision in that direction....Example if I am hitting a follow shot two rails out but I want to make sure I don't put any kill English on it to lengthen the angle I will err to inside (running) English.....or If I am cutting a ball down the rail...I err to outside English to help the ball take the shot line down the rail better.....It is actually just more of a feel thing than an actual hit with a TOI or TOO (in my application of the method)

My disconnect is regarding the pocketing of balls aspect....If you set up center ball and err either way (slightly).... with a solid bridge hand the BHE compensates and you have a wide range of margin of error....I don't think purposely setting up with TOI increases that margin of error for pocketing the ball.
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Most common sense post I have seen in this type of thread in ages. People seem terrified of crossing center ball hitting the cue ball. In reality, crossing centerball has less effect on your shot than any other equal distance error be it on the nearer or further side of the ball.

If we set up a three or four rail shot just rolling balls with a stick, no object ball and try to hit them equally hard we get a pattern. Might put a small piece of paper on the table just to give a target location for the balls to finish at. Measure the maximum spread of the balls or maximum spread of the two widest directions. How you measure isn't important, as long as it is consistent. Hitting centerball, touch of whatever cranks your tractor, and a half tip in from the miscue line, roughly half the distance from center to edge.

It might take more testing to prove centerball is better than a touch of whatever because it isn't hugely better. The hit further off center is just to prove or demonstrate something by exaggeration, a common move in the scientific community. We may have trouble proving centerball is better than a slightly different aimpoint simply because we are dealing with small arcs. The arc is steeper the further out we get on the cue ball. That doesn't mean there is no penalty for missing closer to the centerline of the cue ball, it just takes a larger test group to prove that we may pay a two percent penalty up near the centerline where the curves are flatter compared to the same distance miss costing us a ten percent penalty further out.(numbers just used for examples, not from testing or calculations) Of course taken to extremes an error on the near side sends the ball on a errant path, on the far side it creates a miscue.

Incidentally, the emphasis was for other readers, I didn't feel it was necessary for you. Your post was well thought out and well stated. I guess I could have saved a lot of typing and others a lot of reading by just posting "Ditto!"(grin)

Hu
 
a benefit of using inside english is it will "open" a pocket when shooting an OB down a rail and it strikes the outside of the pocket, esp with "pace"
 
ribdoner said:
a benefit of using inside english is it will "open" a pocket when shooting an OB down a rail and it strikes the outside of the pocket, esp with "pace"
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Yes, but so will no side spin if there is a cut. If there is a cut, I think adding any side is an unneeded complication if you are looking for "helping side" to help the pocket. Also if the cue ball is closer to the cushion than the OB, you need outside english to get "helping" on the object ball.
 
ribdoner said:
a benefit of using inside english is it will "open" a pocket when shooting an OB down a rail and it strikes the outside of the pocket, esp with "pace"
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IDK....(to me) that inside is what causes the dreaded "skid"....I feel like a TOO helps send the OB on a truer path faster....I can play both shots...but I am much more comfortable hitting low outside than low inside shots....(shooting a OB ball down the rail)
 
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