Lemme throw a wrench at your formula...
He plays good enough that he can play shape for his toi approach.
He could also do hi, low or outside. Acronyms aren as good for those though?
C. J. Wiley - A Touch of Inside
- Thread starter SpiderWebComm
- Start date
He plays good enough that he can play shape for his toi approach.
He could also do hi, low or outside. Acronyms aren as good for those though?
Up to a certain amount of inside and cut angle it is not possible for the ball to skid. That's because by the end of the contact time between the balls, they have achieved "gearing" rotation where they are not slipping against each other. It doesn't make any difference how much friction there is between them -- as long as it is more than typical, they will be gearing at the end.
Skid can only occur when the balls do not achieve gearing during the normal shot, such as when a lot of inside is used. Then, the balls will normally be slipping against each other at the end of contact. Put some chalk in there and you get a lot more throw.
The way I understand it you are not really spinning the ball with any appreciably amount of English TOI is just that a touch when i mess around with it I would say my impact might be 1/16 to the inside and firm so the QB is sliding for most of shot not rolling. You just pick you aim spot to the thick side and let the squirt make up rest of angle. It is really interesting to see it work. Like I said before i can do it on my table fairly consistently but at pool hall it is totally different due to variable conditions and I usually don't have enough time to mess around with it to make it work.
What theory allows you to see that? Suppose you are cutting an object ball to the right:
CJ aiming the OB at the left side of the pocket and trying to hit the CB with a touch of inside so that the CB deflects to the left "creating the cut angle" into the center of the pocket:
Anybody else who aims the OB at the center of the pocket and tries to hit the CB in the center:
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What I get out of all of pj and his centerball crew is they play on prestine equipment in controlled conditions.
Anyone with extensive experience playing on a variety of equipment (some of which are skid machines with inconsistent throw) and rooms with changing humidity knows centerball is a disaster waiting to happen no matter how good you are at judging throw.
Centerball is so wonderful you can be playing great then boom it starts raining outside and you can't make a ball anymore until you find the new throw adjustment.
(Try this in a race to 4 or 3....You just lost.)
There is a reason you don't find many pros playing centerball on used, unfamiliar equipment.
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For good players that can judge deflection well the gain comes from guaranteeing consistent throw from the balls on unreliable equipment.
Basically any
Inside causes skid when sliding or rolling at slow speeds. For those you use TOO.
The contacts are more consistent with either TOI or TOO unless you are in ideal conditions. Period.
And yes I can judge throw very well with CB. I've just played too many matches where you end up on a table from hell and it's not feasible to play well with CB due to throw off the charts that isn't consistent shot to shot.
Hell even on a consistent dirty table you miss 2-3 balls before the CB aim is dialed in. So again in a short race you just lost.
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Man, I sure love a good aiming thread!
They sure bring out the passion in people. My .02 is worth considerably less than that but here it goes. I met CJ many years ago when he was on the road. I’m sure he was in character trying to rob one of the largest go off guys in Florida, which was his job, but I didn’t care much for that character. His reputation in Tampa is pretty sketchy to say the least.
Fast forward 20 or so years and now he’s a showman selling his pool systems and lessons. And I like that character’s story. Especially the clip on the Gamblers and Hustlers show. It was entertaining albeit most likely embellished at the very least.
As far as TOI- I’m not good enough to always play shape so I can use a touch of inside English on the next shot. That just seems stupid. It would be like always playing a draw no matter where the pin is placed. I’ve tried TOI plenty of times and I find a touch of outside easier to pocket balls.
I play with a good old fashioned wood shaft so I spin the ball more than you young guys with these fancy low deflection shafts. How does that affect TOI?
They sure bring out the passion in people. My .02 is worth considerably less than that but here it goes. I met CJ many years ago when he was on the road. I’m sure he was in character trying to rob one of the largest go off guys in Florida, which was his job, but I didn’t care much for that character. His reputation in Tampa is pretty sketchy to say the least.
Fast forward 20 or so years and now he’s a showman selling his pool systems and lessons. And I like that character’s story. Especially the clip on the Gamblers and Hustlers show. It was entertaining albeit most likely embellished at the very least.
As far as TOI- I’m not good enough to always play shape so I can use a touch of inside English on the next shot. That just seems stupid. It would be like always playing a draw no matter where the pin is placed. I’ve tried TOI plenty of times and I find a touch of outside easier to pocket balls.
I play with a good old fashioned wood shaft so I spin the ball more than you young guys with these fancy low deflection shafts. How does that affect TOI?
OMG,..... PJ at it again!(and I'm late to the picnic).
I read them all. SRY PJ, I STILL disagree w/you.
Reason:
Wayyy back when CJ was on AZB,( Like @ 2011),we both had some extensive discussions about TOI.
I bought his vids and put his methodology to the test. I spent quite a lot of time playing with what he claimed watching the videos and playing on my home table repeatedly afterwards. In short; TOI does work, HOWEVER.......
There are times when you will sacrifice perfect position on your next shot and have to settle for acceptable position at another place on the table.
He PLAINLY states in his vids that you need a solid, unblemished stroke.
I found it useful in some situations and use it to this day. (THANK YOU CJ)
Let it be known that most PRO's use outside or "helping" english primarily to aid in position.
I am NOT going to write a treatise here,or contribute to the argument. Sorry, I "been there, done that," with PJ.
I will say that PJ does contradict himself back somewhere around post 60-63 (I think,.... I'm NOT checking b/c I just don't care).
TOI is done with parallel stroke, not BHE. (PJ, I KNOW you don't have his vids b/c he says it directly in them).
He DOES talk about BHE in his vids calling it the pivot If I recall correctly.
Just .02 or.... more like a nickel
I'm done.
carry on guys,...... have fun!
I'm getting my popcorn.
I read them all. SRY PJ, I STILL disagree w/you.
Reason:
Wayyy back when CJ was on AZB,( Like @ 2011),we both had some extensive discussions about TOI.
I bought his vids and put his methodology to the test. I spent quite a lot of time playing with what he claimed watching the videos and playing on my home table repeatedly afterwards. In short; TOI does work, HOWEVER.......
There are times when you will sacrifice perfect position on your next shot and have to settle for acceptable position at another place on the table.
He PLAINLY states in his vids that you need a solid, unblemished stroke.
I found it useful in some situations and use it to this day. (THANK YOU CJ)
Let it be known that most PRO's use outside or "helping" english primarily to aid in position.
I am NOT going to write a treatise here,or contribute to the argument. Sorry, I "been there, done that," with PJ.
I will say that PJ does contradict himself back somewhere around post 60-63 (I think,.... I'm NOT checking b/c I just don't care).
TOI is done with parallel stroke, not BHE. (PJ, I KNOW you don't have his vids b/c he says it directly in them).
He DOES talk about BHE in his vids calling it the pivot If I recall correctly.
Just .02 or.... more like a nickel
I'm done.carry on guys,...... have fun!
I'm getting my popcorn.
no. Everyone knows you add toward the cut hence aiming "a little full."
This might be true at ideal speeds. I imagine CJs logic encompasses significant 9 ball action across the country including less than ideal cloth, rubber, weather, gravitational effects, etc... IOW having to stroke everything firmer with technically higher risk.
How is it that you know you have an increased margin of error? Did you shoot 100 cut shots with TOI and 100 cut shots without TOI and you made more balls with TOI?
??? I never stated such. An increased margin of error may come from a slight deviation in stroke.
Wayyy back when,(like I stated), yes, I must have done 100 cut shots easily at different angles while applying TOI.
I personally don't use it all the time for reasons I stated in other post, but that is not to say that it does not have merit. I prefer using outside for position when needed.
I'm sure most of us are approaching 10,000 attempts.
CJ was out and about in the gold crown era for sure.
margin of error henceforth: MOE
In TOI case, MOE is short distence. BHE put TOI, MOE same distence. All mistake is include TOI.
Geez....
In TOI case, MOE is short distence. BHE put TOI, MOE same distence. All mistake is include TOI.
Geez....
Flakeandrun
Well-known member
All these abbreviations tell me that it's pretty much nonsense. Just like my job 
The level of nonsense can be measured in the number abbreviations. This is just one guy (a pretty good one), explaining his preference and what works for him. You can use it to assist you, or be quiet. Treating it like gospel is equally as stupid as arguing the toss over it...
'Aiming' is straight cueing, knowledge of your equipment (table conditions/cue etc), knowledge of the limitations/mechanics of your own game and practice. Practice practice practice.
There's no one-size-fits all method. Just what works for some people, with some equipment, in some places... Coaches can help you figure that out, and so can video content such as this. But realistically, all the bickering in this thread is the some of the hottest air blowing lol
The level of nonsense can be measured in the number abbreviations. This is just one guy (a pretty good one), explaining his preference and what works for him. You can use it to assist you, or be quiet. Treating it like gospel is equally as stupid as arguing the toss over it... 'Aiming' is straight cueing, knowledge of your equipment (table conditions/cue etc), knowledge of the limitations/mechanics of your own game and practice. Practice practice practice.
There's no one-size-fits all method. Just what works for some people, with some equipment, in some places... Coaches can help you figure that out, and so can video content such as this. But realistically, all the bickering in this thread is the some of the hottest air blowing lol
You need to be able to do both to control the throw consistently o m bad equipment/conditions. Both have their shots they work well with and work poorly with.
There are even some shots mainly elevated and longer that you still want CB for.
I don't get the fuss at all. Must be internet chops. Pick an angle and pry it apart.All these abbreviations tell me that it's pretty much nonsense. Just like my job
'Aiming' is straight cueing, knowledge of your equipment (table conditions/cue etc), knowledge of the limitations/mechanics of your own game and practice. Practice practice practice.
There's no one-size-fits all method. Just what works for some people, with some equipment, in some places... Coaches can help you figure that out, and so can video content such as this. But realistically, all the bickering in this thread is the some of the hottest air blowing lol