I watched the video, JJ made pretty good sense.... but beginners would have difficulty understanding his concern of the Handle.
BHE vs FHE
- Thread starter slach
- Start date
Your explanation is clear.
I deny any magical powers to disobey physics to create "more english", what I wrote was how timing--just as you wrote--could deviate tip contact from the desired amount. Yes.
It's the angle of approach that is preferrable for me, easing aim on the OB. I can shoot traditional english strokes with a cue pivoted at address, however, the angle of approach is more oblique to the true center/peach pit of the CB. There are implications.
As discussed in a prior thread, both your way and BHE are straight strokes, functionally and actually (at time of impact).
Then why not simply line up for a straight stroke and avoid the variables of a "deviated motion" (your description)?
pj
chgo
Apologies, I didn't mean to place any words in your mouth.
To each their own I suppose. From my tunnel vision point of view. Introducing timing into a stroke for sake generating english that can be accomplished equally without said timing. Is nothing more than an unnecessary variable that can potentially cause cueing errors.
"Prior thread"...? Not sure which you're referencing. However you'll have zero argument from me that BHE in it's purist form is supposed to be a straight stroke. That said, you're not discussing BHE. At least you weren't originally. You were commenting on BHE combined with a twisting of the wrist to strike the CB with intended english. That tip arc the twisting action creates while stroking forward is what is being referred to as "swoop", and definitely not straight.
**Forgot to add: You can take still photo of the worst stroke imaginable that managed to strike the CB correctly and then claim it was straight. Pulling that moment in time out of the context of the method, does not validate or improve the process in which you got to that moment.
Last edited:
There’s a solution to experience a BHE-like hit, while eliminating the timing issue (and also eliminating the non-straight "swoop" under discussion).
This diagram is NOT to scale.
Two right-handers want to score an object ball, using ¼ tip of right english. Again, my diagram above is not to scale.
The cue ball is shown from above the table so that the base of the CB rests on the cloth at A.
Center cue ball aim for the players, along the shot line to score the OB with a regular, non-english stroke, is at B.
The first player makes a traditional english stroke by pivoting the cue at address, and aiming the tip through C towards D, ¼ tip of right english. They will make a straight stroke, diagonal to the shot line with their hand (and therefore, cue).
The second player addresses center cue ball at A, pauses with a tight tip gap, then supinates at the wrist a tiny amount, so that their tip is now pointed to C, not A. They will then likewise make a straight stroke with the hand, but as if they’re shooting through A along the shot line with their hand, not out and away towards D. Therefore, their diagonally turned cue will also impact the cue ball at C for ¼ tip of right english, but the angle of approach is towards line C-E and not C-D.
Put differently, the first player (regular english stroke) shoots straight along a diagonal cue direction, the second player shoots more so straight ahead, but with a diagonally turned cue.
Obviously, the different angle of approach means that physics dictates the CB's initial direction is different, too. The direction difference means the supinated player needs less aim adjustment to score the OB.
Pivoting at the bridge.
If the angle of approach is along line C-E, then you've moved both hands offline with the cue parallel to B-A (or see below).
To move the tip straight forward with an angled cue would require sliding the bridge hand forward with the stroke. If the bridge doesn't move forward, then the cue pivots at the bridge with the forward movement of the back hand. Simple, inescapable physics.
Also, "supination" and "pronation" describe rotating the hand around the forearm's axis. What you mean is either "extension" (for left handers) or "flexion" (for right handers).
I hope you're not charging clueless students for these "instructions".
pj
chgo
Last edited:
1) Yes, pivoting at the bridge, by wrist supination
2) No, as described with the diagram above, one may pivot through a hand bridge via supination at address, then stroke straight back and forth, so that the tip is going toward C-E at impact, while the butt end of the cue is slightly left of B-A -- or as I wrote "the cue is turned diagonally" [to the shot line] but I never wrote "both hands have moved the cue parallel to the shot line"
3) No, the bridge hand can be immobile for a mere one-quarter of a tip of english (which requires almost imperceptible wrist supination, something like 1/16" of an inch of deviation from a straight hanging wrist) -- of course I also wrote "toward E" not "all the way to E" -- physics dictates that the cue ball "cares about" impact only, not my follow through
4) No, wrist extension or wrist flexion, if more than a little, will add topspin or bottom to the shot, one may instead supinate or pronate the wrist to move the cue laterally only -- you might want to look at my pool books, where I illustrate in photos all six wrist motions
Certainly, students appreciate things like this, so I'm sharing it without charge, here at AZ.
Last edited:
OK.
This is obviously geometrically impossible.
In order for the tip to "go through C-E":
- the bridge must be on the C-E line or
- the bridge must move forward during the stroke (yeah, right) or
- the cue must pivot during the stroke so the tip is moving non-parallel to it.
That last option is a less consistent technique (for both amateurs and pros) compared to pre-angling and stroking straight.
pj
chgo
Last edited:
Your math is off. That's not how levers work.
Assuming a bridge location of 10". The grip hand would need to shift the butt of the cue proximity 4x that 1/4" tip offset, so closer to 1", not 1/16".
It's been a long day. Hope I have that math right...lol
I'd say "one quarter of a tip" = ~1/8", so the butt would have to move ~1/2".
Still 4 times the tip's movement, of course (and still not worth the added variable).
pj
chgo
RE: The BHE part....I used it regularly with my P-314.....I like Cornerman's "DHE" description of it.....
Since my switch to CF shaft I now use FHE.....(pretty much identical to how JJ shows in his video).
BHE (with my P-314) I mostly used it for making sure I erred to one side or the other to make sure I had "helping" English...or the other way if I wanted "checking" English......The actual deviation off line with the back hand is very minute to get up to a full tip of English..even with "DHE"...you really don't need to do any wrist curl or goofy twist......It is really quite simple to apply....
IF I needed max English on a shot I would set up with "static" BHE
DHE is real similar to someone you see that sets up with the tip brushing the cloth on every practice stroke and then when they make the final stroke they stroke down the line........Or Bustamante that sets up way out on the edge on every shot and then on the final stroke goes through where it needs to go...
If you are applying BHE either static (pre-shot) or DHE (during-shot stroke).....If you are (purposely) curling your wrist to apply it....IMO you are going about it the wrong and much more complex way than it needs to be.
Since my switch to CF shaft I now use FHE.....(pretty much identical to how JJ shows in his video).
BHE (with my P-314) I mostly used it for making sure I erred to one side or the other to make sure I had "helping" English...or the other way if I wanted "checking" English......The actual deviation off line with the back hand is very minute to get up to a full tip of English..even with "DHE"...you really don't need to do any wrist curl or goofy twist......It is really quite simple to apply....
IF I needed max English on a shot I would set up with "static" BHE
DHE is real similar to someone you see that sets up with the tip brushing the cloth on every practice stroke and then when they make the final stroke they stroke down the line........Or Bustamante that sets up way out on the edge on every shot and then on the final stroke goes through where it needs to go...
If you are applying BHE either static (pre-shot) or DHE (during-shot stroke).....If you are (purposely) curling your wrist to apply it....IMO you are going about it the wrong and much more complex way than it needs to be.
Last edited:
Here we go again.
No, no, no, Larry. Nothing, and I mean nothing can be played or get the seal of approval until it passes the tests and arguments of math, geometry, trigonometry, Coriolis force, 2D drawings, and God only knows what else the GEEKS of pool can conjure up to win the academia derby first. It doesn't matter what Buddy Hall does or teaches, CJ Wiley, Efren, Bustamante, and a whole host of other greats of the game.guys
JUST GO PLAY
jmho
icbw
THEY didn't know what the hell they were doing and got it all wrong! They only THOUGHT
that's what they were doing but were actually throwing something else into it to make it work. How do we know?
Because the GEEKS said so and THEY rule a pool forum. So much so that the pro players who have come here and posted
have all said in the end...F**K THIS PLACE and left!! Who loses? We ALL do! Too bad nobody ever put a pool cue in Einstein's hands because he would have been the greatest pool player in the history or the game, even without the coordination that he seemingly would have had with a cue in his hands and poor eyesight. Who knew the best players in pool would all have
engineering degrees in one area or another and that it was a requirement. Damn good thing they aren't in golf or gun forums.
Last edited:
i tend to be analytical
so i like to know the why of things
but i am ok to just accept things even if i cant get a scientific answer
The why doesn't mean diddly squat to me, it's the HOW. HOW can I do that myself? Do you want or need the math and formulas to perform the following in the YouTube video? Compared to this, BHE, CTE, Contact Points, Fractions, draw, running, side spin, is simple 3rd grade stuff requiring good vision, alignment with NO guessing or feel, and a good stroke (straight or angled) to know or make the CB go where you want it to go and do what it was intended to do.
Last edited:
I could take a handful of Viagra and if Taylor Swift was naked right in front of me, nothing would happen. (and it ain't because I
don't get off on women and prefer men. uuuggghh, puke) She's a complete turnoff and whack job.
Now, Aunt Jemima? Love her and the maple syrup on a big stack of pancakes! SPROING!
JV,
Not 1/4" (quarter-inch) of english, 1/4 of a tip, a pool convention that is a tiny increment. For a 13mm tip, 1.65 mm (a tip is one half overlap of itself, so a 1/4 tip is 1/8 of a typical 13mm tip, or 1.65mm over to the right with the tip).
Also, I have free space, like most players, in my closed hand loop, to use, so it's not a pure pivot, almost no one purely pivots around a held axis when they say they do. So! As I've written above (and used at the tables) almost imperceptible supination.
**
PJ,
It's worth the added variable to do what all BHE players enjoy doing, use less adjustment to score the OB. That's why quite a number of playing pros use BHE. We all know it's fundamentals, not fancy moves, that make the pros great players, so they are even more leery of snake oil and adding variables than you or I. They love BHE.
**
All,
I want to teach, not gloat, but it's almost heady to shoot english so easily and watch people with diagonally pivoted cues avoid english at CB-OB distances longer than two diamonds in length. How many books or magazines have you seen that say "avoid english over a distance because of variables"?
I posted a diagram above, where because of the vastly improved angle of approach, you can hold english beautifully, at a variety of shot speeds, over the nine feet of CB travel, score the OB, then have the cue go several rails around the table with spin.
Why? Because the cue is turned slightly diagonally and you're shooting (almost) straight ahead along the shot line.
Finally, the argument against variables sounds like "Don't teach it, because it's harder to do, and less easily learned." Okay, so I have students of all levels from beginner to pro. Do you want to stay intermediates or go to the next level in your game? BHE is a fraction of what you'll need, but I have a current student who is consistently winning matchups with players 100 Fargo points above him... I'm not saying this to be rude or reprove people, but the argument seems moot, for example, open breaks delivered with a lot of force requires adding some variables and some practice, but is for some the most important part of their game.
Last edited:
There's a disconnect between what you say must happen from theorizing, and what actually happens.
Some months ago, I explained you can see the benefits of a better angle of approach by pre-supinating or pronating the hand than stroking straight. You said the bridge would snap open and/or slide forward, about a day later I went to the hall, setup a shot, and repeated it multiple times with a foot-long or longer follow through, and of course, my bridge hand didn't spring open or slide foward.
Why? Because if have space in my closed loop and a light clasp on the cue. I cede your point if the bridge hand is held in a death grip so tight you couldn't take a backswing to begin the stroke.
Now, your last point makes partial sense, the tendency with right-hand english is for the cue to veer to the right after impact, but physically the CB cares about impact only and also, you can still get english with a one-inch or half-inch backstroke! There are many ways to demonstrate the point without the bridge hand moving or the cue pivoting.
Again, set the CB-OB distance at nine feet and you'll sing the praises of BHE. That's why friends who play pool for a living use it.