BHE vs FHE

[SpiderWebComm]

One sec... I don't disagree at all with the concept that BHE can apply english to a CB. ...so no, as far as my opinion goes (whatever that's worth) it totally works. I don't need to get on a table and try it.

I've heard of lil'Chris. I have no idea what his real full name is, but will take your word that he is an accomplished player and carries a rating higher than mine. So we're clear. Someone doesn't need a rating higher than mine to get me to consider their approach.

It's exactly what I knew already and the video you posted backs it up.
View attachment 744575View attachment 744576
Hopefully I don't need to add arrows to highlight what should be very obvious. Mr. Lil' shifts his arm back and forth horizontally to alter tip placement. This is my "problem" with BHE. He's altered his mechanics for sake of applying english. Based on his elbow position it looks as though the entire adjustment is at the shoulder. I could be wrong. I think he's cueing to extremes in the demo pic'd, so you have what..?..., maybe >1" of lateral tip movement. Which translates to roughly ~4" at the butt...? The difference in elbow placement doesn't support that amount, but I'm not going to jump to other conclusions.

So, to utilize BHE you alter your mechanical set up. The 2 strokes above are different in relation to the body. This is inconsistency and a great way to manifest flaws in cueing. Can it be learnt and effective...?..., most certainly. Do I think a beginner should unnecessarily steepen their learning curve for sake of it...?..., hell no.

In comparison, I pivot my entire upper body. This allows me to maintain my mechanics and the 4 points of cue contact I prefer to employ, (grip, chest, chin, bridge). I'm not bashful in stating my stroke is as straight as a CF arrow. I worked very hard to get it that way and it's consistency has pulled me out of shooting slumps more times then I could possibly recall.

The question I have is, after all the areas that are so defined, ingrained, and adhered to...how in the hell did/do you get into slumps to begin with?

While I don't doubt the ability of BHE to impart spin on the CB. I do view it as a means to complicate mechanics and cause those attempting to ingrain fundamentals additional difficulty.

Well, after all of the above, who said BHE was for someone that didn't have good fundamentals? And where is it written and taught that there's only one way to skin a cat when it comes to executing BHE, methods and visuals of aiming, forming a bridge, standing high or bending low in the stance, angle of body and head to the shot line, different ways to apply English,
having different strokes and stroke speeds, various wrist positions and grip pressure for the stroking hand, etc., etc.

What is your level of professional instruction as issued within the PBIA? Are you an instructor in addition to playing the game? Either way, it seems to me like "it's my way or the highway." HEIL!

 

[SpiderWebComm]

We've also had Spidey suggest the validation of CTE because of exceptional players. I fully agree with him that it does on some level a proof of concept.

You have got to be shitting me with that comment! AZB, although the single website most dedicated to pool, (as well as bitching and arguing about politics), has a counter site called Facebook (a slight bit bigger than AZ ) with a section 100% dedicated to CTE and pool players at all levels from around the world. The total signed into the section are in the thousands
now. Here, it's totally controlled and run by the inmates that are all anti the method and all who attach themselves to the belief like lemmings. Seemingly, you're one of them.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Look at the pivoted/unpivoted pics above - see the difference in where the cue is next to his chin. I'm sure he can cope, but that's what he has to do.

pj
chgo

Can you provide a video of yourself executing what he's doing along with an in-depth explanation of all the potential problems?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Correct. But when a pooler like JV starts equating game to validity of technique that needs to be addressed as such.

You're starting to win me over...

 

[SpiderWebComm]

That's how most people do BHE, and how a lot of instructors teach it. But to me it's counterintuitive when it comes to developing consistent stroke mechanics.

The body/stance and stroke should be in tune with each other every time. So instead of the player simply moving the grip hand in or out from the body to apply BHE, it would be better to slightly move the body/stance to match the english-adjusted stroke line/angle. In other words, keep the body in alignment with the stroke.

Brian, it's no big deal either way. It's not some kind of monster move. The end result is only a few MILLIMETERS from the tip position left or right from CCB. It doesn't do anything to the stroke. If it's so terrible, how do you justify a parallel shift from right
or left as being perfectly normal and acceptable?

 

[The_JV]

That's how most people do BHE, and how a lot of instructors teach it. But to me it's counterintuitive when it comes to developing consistent stroke mechanics.

The body/stance and stroke should be in tune with each other every time. So instead of the player simply moving the grip hand in or out from the body to apply BHE, it would be better to slightly move the body/stance to match the english-adjusted stroke line/angle. In other words, keep the body in alignment with the stroke.

This is exactly how I make the cueing adjustments for english. I'm fortunate that I developed a rather low shooting stance that grants me the 4 points of contact on the cue while I stroke. It helps prevent me from being lazy and swinging in/out my arm independently of my body.

 

[Cornerman]

By BHE, I mean a stroke that is out of natural alignment with the body in an effort to produce English on a CB.

That’s not how I learned and use backhand english. When it’s time to hit the cueball, the player’s stroke should be in alignment with his body. Maybe I misunderstand what you’re saying, but it feels like your imagining what normal backhand english users do, and that the action must be significant with gross movements.

 

[The_JV]

The question I have is, after all the areas that are so defined, ingrained, and adhered to...how in the hell did/do you get into slumps to begin with?

I'm human and don't play very often...

Well, after all of the above, who said BHE was for someone that didn't have good fundamentals?

Well I guess that depends on what you call good fundamentals. If I saw someone struggling to cue consistently and noted that their grip arm swung in and out randomly. I'll call that a flaw in his mechanics/fundamentals. Now if that same person told me that the lateral movement in their grip arm was purposeful for sake of BHE. Then I'd simply ask them how it's working out for them and suggest there's an easier way. That's only my opinion of course, and there's zero expectation they should be interested in what I have to say.

And where is it written and taught that there's only one way to skin a cat when it comes to executing BHE, methods and visuals of aiming, forming a bridge, standing high or bending low in the stance, angle of body and head to the shot line, different ways to apply English, having different strokes and stroke speeds, various wrist positions and grip pressure for the stroking hand, etc., etc.

I'm going to stick to the topic at hand rather than have you pull me down a rabbit hole of tangents. BHE by it's description is a method to develop english by shifting the grip hand off baseline (natural) mechanics respective to the body to adjust tip/CB contact. How else do you do it...?

My upper body pivot has got to be the closest comparable, as I do pivot the cue on my bridge much like one does with BHE. However I don't suffer from varying mechanics. That said, I'm getting the impression you don't put much importance on one's consistency with their mechanics...? I consider it the building block that defines the rest of someone's game.

What is your level of professional instruction as issued within the PBIA? Are you an instructor in addition to playing the game? Either way, it seems to me like "it's my way or the highway." HEIL!

I've achieved no level of certification as a professional instructor. Subsequently I don't instruct on a professional level at all. I have offered advice and been asked to provide lessons, but I'd rather people keep their money and just ask questions. Players can do whatever they want. I'm not judging people for adopting whatever method they choose to. However belief does not alter reality.

Something to consider. I've also not achieved any level of education in the field of geology. However I can identify what a rock is, I know they are heavier then air, and something that doesn't produce good soup no matter how much you boil them.

 

[The_JV]

That’s not how I learned and use backhand english. When it’s time to hit the cueball, the player’s stroke should be in alignment with his body. Maybe I misunderstand what you’re saying, but it feels like your imagining what normal backhand english users do, and that the action must be significant with gross movements.

You have me at a disadvantage. I'm describing what normal BHE users do but that's not how BHE is performed..? Or it's just not how you were taught to utilize the technique..?

Can you briefing describe how you perform BHE. If you don't shift your grip hand laterally off the baseline (center CB), then how is it BHE..?

 

[Cornerman]

You have me at a disadvantage. I'm describing what normal BHE users do but that's not how BHE is performed..? Or it's just not how you were taught to utilize the technique..?

Can you briefing describe how you perform BHE. If you don't shift your grip hand laterally off the baseline (center CB), then how is it BHE..?

I dont know what you mean by “normal users.” I was taught by Hal Houle. If people since then do something different, then I cant speak for them.

The “shift” in the cue is the pivoting about the bridge hand by moving the grip hand left or right. You dont go down and lock your body and then angle your cue at some weird angle . The backhand motion is just a few millimeters, hardly any motion at all. To get the rest of your body aligned takes as much movement as taking a breath.

I remember having a similar conversation with Colin Colenso decades ago at this point. He finally got on his table and tried it, and then he became the poster boy champion of backhand English. I think he thought the movements would create other things, but once he actually got down on the table and tried it, he realized how simple the movement is.

Here’s something I’ve said, in the past that confuses the hell out of people. I use backhand English to find center ball as well. If people don’t understand that, they don’t know backhanding English, even though that was said from the onset with Hal as well. Backhand englush describes the movement of the cuestick not the movement of the rest of the body. Maybe that confuses people as well. If you feel out of alignment after pivoting, adjust your body. That wouldnt be normal for me, but there are some shots that I do indeed readjust my body after the pivot. But that wouldnt be the norm.

 

[The_JV]

You have got to be shitting me with that comment! AZB, although the single website most dedicated to pool, (as well as bitching and arguing about politics), has a counter site called Facebook (a slight bit bigger than AZ ) with a section 100% dedicated to CTE and pool players at all levels from around the world. The total signed into the section are in the thousands
now. Here, it's totally controlled and run by the inmates that are all anti the method and all who attach themselves to the belief like lemmings. Seemingly, you're one of them.

I'm confused... So I agree with you and now I'm a "anti-the-method lemming"...?

lol....

Man, I really thought some benefit was going to be had by taking you off the ignore list.

 

[Cornerman]

That's how most people do BHE, and how a lot of instructors teach it. But to me it's counterintuitive when it comes to developing consistent stroke mechanics.

I honestly dont know what this means. If you watch a real backhand user use backhand english, the movement would be so small that getting in alignment is no work at all. I dont know if the instructors are exaggerating the motions so you can see it, but every time we have these threads, I go to my table and end up asking how anyone can say that I’m not an alignment, my stroke isn’t straight with my body, etc. etc. the move I make is so slight. We’re talking movement in the same ballpark as tightening up your fist when it was already in a loose fist position!

Every time Nick Varner uses english, he uses backhand english. Go watch a video to see if you can see it, see if he’s out of alignment, etc. Nick called it “locking in the english.” I dont mean to make a call to a higher authority. If you dont see the backhand motion, then we need to find another example to show the incredibly small motion.

Take a look at this video that Colin did a Zillion years ago when he’s not trying to demonstrate, and he actually pretty much just gets down to shoot the ball., The movement in the restless body to realign is almost imperceptible. But even if he does move, it’s not something gargantuan.
Take a look for example, at the shot he takes right at 17 minutes. Remember, he still trying to Demonstrate. He’s not shooting across his body or anything like that. The motion is so small.

NV A.19 - Colin Colenso's back-hand-english saga (for squirt compensation) - Dr. Dave Pool Info

billiards.colostate.edu

 

[The_JV]

I dont know what you mean by “normal users.” I was taught by Hal Houle. If people since then do something different, then I cant speak for them.

I quoted you, so I'd have to ask you what a "normal user" is:

That’s not how I learned and use backhand english. When it’s time to hit the cueball, the player’s stroke should be in alignment with his body. Maybe I misunderstand what you’re saying, but it feels like your imagining what normal backhand english users do, and that the action must be significant with gross movements.

I'm going to break down my responses. Not in an effort to be critical, but so there's no misconception between what you're describing and how I interpret it.

The “shift” in the cue is the pivoting about the bridge hand by moving the grip hand left or right.

ok, so the norm as I understand it.

You dont go down and lock your body and then angle your cue at some weird angle .

I didn't suggest that, just so we're not on different pages. However, if you had the opportunity and/or desire to watch the video posted by Spidey of this Lil'Chris guy demonstrating BHE. That's literally how he does it. Gets down center ball and only shifts the butt of his cue. Not at some weird angle, but no upper body shift.

The backhand motion is just a few millimeters, hardly any motion at all. To get the rest of your body aligned takes as much movement as taking a breath.

Isn't the backhand motion relative to the amount of tip adjustment required...? So if you wanted only a few millimeters of BHE you would need roughly 4 times that movement at the backhand. Keep in mind we're speaking of a lever, and I'm approximating a 10" bridge length with a ~50" cue for sake of easy math.

Now what I'm interested in is the second sentence above. It reads to me that you're using BHE to determine your cueing angle, and then pivoting your upper body to match up with that stroke. Do I have that right...? If so, you're starting off with BHE, but then correcting your mechanics by shifting you torso back in line. If I have that right, then you're end result is no different than mine. Your process just has 2 steps, (BH and then torso) whereas mine is just torso.

I remember having a similar conversation with Colin Colenso decades ago at this point. He finally got on his table and tried it, and then he became the poster boy champion of backhand English. I think he thought the movements would create other things, but once he actually got down on the table and tried it, he realized how simple the movement is.

I don't dispute how easy it would be to perform and understand the effects of BHE. The only torch I've been carrying is how pure BHE without torso adjustment is the best means for throwing your mechanics off. ...and again, I don't dispute that those random mechanics can be practiced around.

Here’s something I’ve said, in the past that confuses the hell out of people. I use backhand English to find center ball as well. If people don’t understand that, they don’t know backhanding English, even though that was said from the onset with Hal as well. Backhand englush describes the movement of the cuestick not the movement of the rest of the body. Maybe that confuses people as well. If you feel out of alignment after pivoting, adjust your body. That wouldnt be normal for me, but there are some shots that I do indeed readjust my body after the pivot. But that wouldnt be the norm.

Exactly, and my point. BHE pushes/pulls your cue off natural alignment to your body. The second bolded sentence is upper body compensation and not an element of pure BHE. If you or anyone else pivots the body to fully correct misalignment of BHE then the end result isn't BHE. BHE was a step to get to the end result, but in the end it's a upper body pivot that doesn't contain an out of alignment grip hand position.

There's most likely a middle ground. Wherein there's a blending of BHE and subsequent torso compensation. The torso is only pivoted to realign the stroke to a comfortable position and not all the way back to baseline (natural).

I hope I've understood what you've tried to explain. ...and thank you

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I'm confused... So I agree with you and now I'm a "anti-the-method lemming"...?

I don't know what you mean and what we agree on. What do you disagree with that I said?

lol....

Man, I really thought some benefit was going to be had by taking you off the ignore list.

I'm not twisting your arm to stay the way it is. I've been contemplating the same thing with you.

 

[BRKNRUN]

One sec... I don't disagree at all with the concept that BHE can apply english to a CB. ...so no, as far as my opinion goes (whatever that's worth) it totally works. I don't need to get on a table and try it.

I've heard of lil'Chris. I have no idea what his real full name is, but will take your word that he is an accomplished player and carries a rating higher than mine. So we're clear. Someone doesn't need a rating higher than mine to get me to consider their approach.

It's exactly what I knew already and the video you posted backs it up.
View attachment 744575View attachment 744576
Hopefully I don't need to add arrows to highlight what should be very obvious. Mr. Lil' shifts his arm back and forth horizontally to alter tip placement. This is my "problem" with BHE. He's altered his mechanics for sake of applying english. Based on his elbow position it looks as though the entire adjustment is at the shoulder. I could be wrong. I think he's cueing to extremes in the demo pic'd, so you have what..?..., maybe >1" of lateral tip movement. Which translates to roughly ~4" at the butt...? The difference in elbow placement doesn't support that amount, but I'm not going to jump to other conclusions.

So, to utilize BHE you alter your mechanical set up. The 2 strokes above are different in relation to the body. This is inconsistency and a great way to manifest flaws in cueing. Can it be learnt and effective...?..., most certainly. Do I think a beginner should unnecessarily steepen their learning curve for sake of it...?..., hell no.

In comparison, I pivot my entire upper body. This allows me to maintain my mechanics and the 4 points of cue contact I prefer to employ, (grip, chest, chin, bridge). I'm not bashful in stating my stroke is as straight as a CF arrow. I worked very hard to get it that way and it's consistency has pulled me out of shooting slumps more times then I could possibly recall.

While I don't doubt the ability of BHE to impart spin on the CB. I do view it as a means to complicate mechanics and cause those attempting to ingrain fundamentals additional difficulty.

This is newish piece of information ...so let me jump back in for just a moment.

First I don't knock anyone's method for "getting there"...to each their own....I am just a lowly 600+ Fargo getting back in to the game of pool again....I am sure anyone on this board could beat me at any game.....but here are some thoughts on the "method" of applying BHE...

There are three ways to apply the BHE.....1 move the hips.....1...move just the grip hand....3 curl the wrist......All three will get you there....The way you get there is up to the comfort level of the player.

Personally...when I played (with my P-314) shaft I mostly used BHE and I applied it the same way in the Lil Chris demo video.....I just simply moved the grip hand in or out....no wrist movement, no hip/shoulder/head movement.

Why do I do it this way VS moving my hips as commonly taught.....This goes back to my method of teaching in Golf and the method I practice in pool and my personal comfort level with the process.

I am very much a believer that the only things you can control are Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment.....Everything that happens in the stroke is a "result" of those 4 things...you actually have very little control over the stroke...It just happens naturally based on the 4 parts of the set up.

Now in pool....(for me) everything starts from "square" or center ball alignment....CBA....whatever the natural angles and set up are for a no top,bottom,side spin shot.....all "adjustments" are made from there....

Now (as it applies to BHE).....If I set up square and then move my hips to apply the BHE....this (at least to me) makes my head move (at least turn with my shoulders and hips) which then "skews" my visual perception of the shot......

If I only move my grip hand in or out.....The rest of my entire set up is still "square" to a CBA.....Now if my stroke were to FAIL under pressure....the theory (at least my theory) is that the stroke will fail back to "natural" which would mean right down the CBA shot line.

If I shift my hips....that skews my entire set up from CBA and if it fails the result is less predictable.

I liken the whole process although different...very similar to setting up for hitting a Draw or Fade in Golf.....(or if you are behind a tree a hook or slice)....

The GOAL of my mechanics is to be one of those guys the you watch like Earl, Efren...or modern day Shaw that seem to make everything they look at but if you really watch their mechanics they don't necessarily have "text book" mechanics....yet they never miss?......I believe it is due to the set up generates a "natural" way of making balls the does not fail under pressure but only gets better.......and NO I am not one of those guys that never misses....but I do make a lot more balls than I miss....and although I am well past my prime I am still going to strive to be a "never miss" type of guy.

RE: the amount of "tip offset"......I make some goofy 3D stuff that I use for training and visual perception verification etc....
One is a Ghost Ball Conversion tool that I can slide into any shot pre-shot...and it will give me a GB verification that I can use to convert to my personal method of aiming and improve my visual perception on those "problem angles"

I also make a (I call it) stroke iron that I use to works on my personal stroke flaw of a twist....Using this I can adjust my set up (grip,stance,posture,alignment) to create a set up that delivers the shaft more straight...(at least through impact).....It also has gun (type) sights that I can use for shaft (aiming) reference alignment and tip offset for applying english.

What I find is that what is commonly referenced moving from center (gun sight pictured) to either edge gun sight is considered a "full" tip of English.....(even though it is in reality only moving 1/2 tip)....Moving the entire width from edge gun sight to edge gun sight is considered 2 tips of English.....The actual distance between each gun sight is only about 1/4"....so the MAX I am ever going to move my tip is 1/2".......That (depending on the shaft pivot point) is a max of 2" (or less) on the grip hand...It is in reality a very minimal amount of movement from CBA......and.....IF my stroke fell back on to the natural CBA stroke line instead of the adjusted stroke line....the result (in theory) should be a made ball with less or no english than desired.

To me this method (and also setting up using the shafts natural pivot point) are both "self correcting"....and since I am very much a player that does not get out for 10 hours a day every day to play pool....Instead of trying to get a "perfect" stroke....I need to find a way to play this game that allows my stroke to be "a bit wobbly" from time to time.

Not trying to change the way anyone applies their method of English...Nor am I saying 1 is better than the other....Each person has to ultimately go with what works for them.....This post is just an attempt to explain the "why" (I do it like that)

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I'm human and don't play very often...

Well I guess that depends on what you call good fundamentals. If I saw someone struggling to cue consistently and noted that their grip arm swung in and out randomly. I'll call that a flaw in his mechanics/fundamentals. Now if that same person told me that the lateral movement in their grip arm was purposeful for sake of BHE. Then I'd simply ask them how it's working out for them and suggest there's an easier way. That's only my opinion of course, and there's zero expectation they should be interested in what I have to say.

If their grip arm was swinging in and out all over randomly, they sure as hell aren't using and performing BHE properly. What's the easier way...picking up the whole hand and shifting it to the side for parallel English? Do you think it would be any better for someone at that level?

I'm going to stick to the topic at hand rather than have you pull me down a rabbit hole of tangents. BHE by it's description is a method to develop english by shifting the grip hand off baseline (natural) mechanics respective to the body to adjust tip/CB contact. How else do you do it...?

Are you saying a lateral shift is natural mechanics and better to do? Now deflection is being brought into the shot. Are you going to have a crash course on how to account for that?

My upper body pivot has got to be the closest comparable, as I do pivot the cue on my bridge much like one does with BHE. However I don't suffer from varying mechanics. That said, I'm getting the impression you don't put much importance on one's consistency with their mechanics...? I consider it the building block that defines the rest of someone's game.

Maybe your impressions are only your impressions and way off the mark. Did you even consider that? No? I didn't think so.

I've achieved no level of certification as a professional instructor. Subsequently I don't instruct on a professional level at all. I have offered advice and been asked to provide lessons, but I'd rather people keep their money and just ask questions. Players can do whatever they want. I'm not judging people for adopting whatever method they choose to.

It certainly doesn't appear to be the case from what I'm reading. You're totally contradicting yourself from one post to another.

Something to consider. I've also not achieved any level of education in the field of geology. However I can identify what a rock is

Of course you can. Just tap the top or side of your head!

 

[SpiderWebComm]

This is newish piece of information ...so let me jump back in for just a moment.

First I don't knock anyone's method for "getting there"...to each their own....I am just a lowly 600+ Fargo getting back in to the game of pool again....I am sure anyone on this board could beat me at any game.....but here are some thoughts on the "method" of applying BHE...

There are three ways to apply the BHE.....1 move the hips.....1...move just the grip hand....3 curl the wrist......All three will get you there....The way you get there is up to the comfort level of the player.

Personally...when I played (with my P-314) shaft I mostly used BHE and I applied it the same way in the Lil Chris demo video.....I just simply moved the grip hand in or out....no wrist movement, no hip/shoulder/head movement.

Why do I do it this way VS moving my hips as commonly taught.....This goes back to my method of teaching in Golf and the method I practice in pool and my personal comfort level with the process.

I am very much a believer that the only things you can control are Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment.....Everything that happens in the stroke is a "result" of those 4 things...you actually have very little control over the stroke...It just happens naturally based on the 4 parts of the set up.

Now in pool....(for me) everything starts from "square" or center ball alignment....CBA....whatever the natural angles and set up are for a no top,bottom,side spin shot.....all "adjustments" are made from there....

Now (as it applies to BHE).....If I set up square and then move my hips to apply the BHE....this (at least to me) makes my head move (at least turn with my shoulders and hips) which then "skews" my visual perception of the shot......

If I only move my grip hand in or out.....The rest of my entire set up is still "square" to a CBA.....Now if my stroke were to FAIL under pressure....the theory (at least my theory) is that the stroke will fail back to "natural" which would mean right down the CBA shot line.

If I shift my hips....that skews my entire set up from CBA and if it fails the result is less predictable.

I liken the whole process although different...very similar to setting up for hitting a Draw or Fade in Golf.....(or if you are behind a tree a hook or slice)....

The GOAL of my mechanics is to be one of those guys the you watch like Earl, Efren...or modern day Shaw that seem to make everything they look at but if you really watch their mechanics they don't necessarily have "text book" mechanics....yet they never miss?......I believe it is due to the set up generates a "natural" way of making balls the does not fail under pressure but only gets better.......and NO I am not one of those guys that never misses....but I do make a lot more balls than I miss....and although I am well past my prime I am still going to strive to be a "never miss" type of guy.

RE: the amount of "tip offset"......I make some goofy 3D stuff that I use for training and visual perception verification etc....
One is a Ghost Ball Conversion tool that I can slide into any shot pre-shot...and it will give me a GB verification that I can use to convert to my personal method of aiming and improve my visual perception on those "problem angles"

I also make a (I call it) stroke iron that I use to works on my personal stroke flaw of a twist....Using this I can adjust my set up (grip,stance,posture,alignment) to create a set up that delivers the shaft more straight...(at least through impact).....It also has gun (type) sights that I can use for shaft (aiming) reference alignment and tip offset for applying english.
View attachment 744690View attachment 744691

What I find is that what is commonly referenced moving from center (gun sight pictured) to either edge gun sight is considered a "full" tip of English.....(even though it is in reality only moving 1/2 tip)....Moving the entire width from edge gun sight to edge gun sight is considered 2 tips of English.....The actual distance between each gun sight is only about 1/4"....so the MAX I am ever going to move my tip is 1/2".......That (depending on the shaft pivot point) is a max of 2" (or less) on the grip hand...It is in reality a very minimal amount of movement from CBA......and.....IF my stroke fell back on to the natural CBA stroke line instead of the adjusted stroke line....the result (in theory) should be a made ball with less or no english than desired.

To me this method (and also setting up using the shafts natural pivot point) are both "self correcting"....and since I am very much a player that does not get out for 10 hours a day every day to play pool....Instead of trying to get a "perfect" stroke....I need to find a way to play this game that allows my stroke to be "a bit wobbly" from time to time.

Not trying to change the way anyone applies their method of English...Nor am I saying 1 is better than the other....Each person has to ultimately go with what works for them.....This post is just an attempt to explain the "why" (I do it like that)

Excellent, dynamite post!!

 

[Cornerman]

I quoted you, so I'd have to ask you what a "normal user" is:


I'm going to break down my responses. Not in an effort to be critical, but so there's no misconception between what you're describing and how I interpret it.

ok, so the norm as I understand it.

I didn't suggest that, just so we're not on different pages. However, if you had the opportunity and/or desire to watch the video posted by Spidey of this Lil'Chris guy demonstrating BHE. That's literally how he does it. Gets down center ball and only shifts the butt of his cue. Not at some weird angle, but no upper body shift.

Isn't the backhand motion relative to the amount of tip adjustment required...? So if you wanted only a few millimeters of BHE you would need roughly 4 times that movement at the backhand. Keep in mind we're speaking of a lever, and I'm approximating a 10" bridge length with a ~50" cue for sake of easy math.

Now what I'm interested in is the second sentence above. It reads to me that you're using BHE to determine your cueing angle, and then pivoting your upper body to match up with that stroke. Do I have that right...? If so, you're starting off with BHE, but then correcting your mechanics by shifting you torso back in line. If I have that right, then you're end result is no different than mine. Your process just has 2 steps, (BH and then torso) whereas mine is just torso.

I don't dispute how easy it would be to perform and understand the effects of BHE. The only torch I've been carrying is how pure BHE without torso adjustment is the best means for throwing your mechanics off. ...and again, I don't dispute that those random mechanics can be practiced around.

Exactly, and my point. BHE pushes/pulls your cue off natural alignment to your body. The second bolded sentence is upper body compensation and not an element of pure BHE. If you or anyone else pivots the body to fully correct misalignment of BHE then the end result isn't BHE. BHE was a step to get to the end result, but in the end it's a upper body pivot that doesn't contain an out of alignment grip hand position.

There's most likely a middle ground. Wherein there's a blending of BHE and subsequent torso compensation. The torso is only pivoted to realign the stroke to a comfortable position and not all the way back to baseline (natural).

I hope I've understood what you've tried to explain. ...and thank you

Selective bolding. It wouldnt be normal for me to shift my body after pivoting, but I cant say I dont pre-shift. But I dont want you to come away with wild gyration movement. Any movement would look like I’m just settling into my stance. The movements are so small, miles different than what people seem to be imagining. If I move my hips, we’re taking a move akin to doing a kegel exercise or just the effort to go down more on a shot. Well within any normal motion.

Millimeters is at the cueball. Yes, inch+ in the backhand, but it’s so small if you go to the table. So so small. I cant stress that enough.

To the point of shifting part of the body, absolutely. Sure. When I first talked to Hal, I asked about my head position after I pivoted since my eye alignment would be different. He said, “then move your head.” Brain surgery. When we move our head for Centergistic alignment (eye center), that’s the same movement of the head that except it’s an even smaller motion. Same exertion as smiling.

You’ll see other methods of getting down on the shot whether it’s pivoting prior (like air pivoting) or stepping into the shot from the side (similar to what Stan teaches). I dont air pivot.

I’m not sure where and to what intent this backhand english discussion has devolved. I do know that what people are describing about not being aligned, that’s useless noise. Forget about that since being misaligned isnt part of backhand english, unless for some strange reason people want it to be. That would be strange.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Selective bolding. It wouldnt be normal for me to shift my body after pivoting, but I cant say I dont pre-shift. But I dont want you to come away with wild gyration movement. Any movement would look like I’m just settling into my stance. The movements are so small, miles different than what people seem to be imagining. If I move my hips, we’re taking a move akin to doing a kegel exercise or just the effort to go down more on a shot. Well within any normal motion.

Millimeters is at the cueball. Yes, inch+ in the backhand, but it’s so small if you go to the table. So so small. I cant stress that enough.

To the point of shifting part of the body, absolutely. Sure. When I first talked to Hal, I asked about my head position after I pivoted since my eye alignment would be different. He said, “then move your head.” Brain surgery. When we move our head for Centergistic alignment (eye center), that’s the same movement of the head that except it’s an even smaller motion. Same exertion as smiling.

You’ll see other methods of getting down on the shot whether it’s pivoting prior (like air pivoting) or stepping into the shot from the side (similar to what Stan teaches). I dont air pivot.

I’m not sure where and to what intent this backhand english discussion has devolved. I do know that what people are describing about not being aligned, that’s useless noise. Forget about that since being misaligned isnt part of backhand english, unless for some strange reason people want it to be. That would be strange.

Damn Fred, you are on and hot today! Keep telling those Hal stories from years ago. I never get tired of them.

 

[BasementDweller]

I've been surprised by this thread. I didn't realize there were players who are at a minimum - very good amateurs, that come down on the center ball aim line and adjusted (however they do it) from there.

I'm wondering now if there are modern pros that do the same. I recognize some of the older guard did this or something very similar. Someone like Bustamante. I also wonder if it's the players that are down on the ball longer. Someone like Morra, Kaci, or Styer. I know Styer is a CTE guy but just talking about BHE.

I would think you could observe this on video, not that I've looked for it specifically. My hunch is the faster players are getting down really close to the required aim line as opposed to the center ball line.