BHE vs FHE

[The_JV]

What's competitive ability got to do with basic fundamentals?

We are different pages on what the word "fundamentals" stands for. Aiming methodology, application of english and compensation doesn't have much to do with fundamentals imo. At least not now the term is generally accepted. Fundamentals for the general public are stance, mechanics, grip and formation of bridge. All of which can be fluid from one player to another, but consistent in application.

When I ask for a measurable to gauge competitive ability. It's in an effort to determine the wisdom behind the posts. I'm curious as to how successful a player as been with their approach when faced with an opponent that will not allow a redo if something didn't work out on the first attempt. Really just an interest on how well your tires grip the road, if you will.

You really have nothing to offer except your take on some antiquated player wisdom and chops.

I straight up have nothing to offer other than wisdom. The value of that wisdom is left to the beholder to judge. I'm nothing more than the sum of my experiences. I'm also indifferent to whether or not someone is willing to listen as well.

If we were face to face you'd be pushing for a pool match.

I'm always up for a game. However although you haven't given me anything to go on. I've got a strong feeling that we wouldn't find ourselves on opposite sides of a table. In my experience, those who have a strong theory on how to play well but aren't willing to substantiate their claims. Tend to avoid situations, even lighthearted ones, that might shed a negative light on what they hold dear.

I know I don't have anything to prove.

CG and BHE are about accurate and consistent shooting with minimal guesswork and even less mathematical baggage... ;
for anybody to learn and grow with.

Quite possibly. I'll likely never know. BHE is the best method I know of to push your mechanics off alignment. So it will never be apart of my game. I believe "CG" is the method you coin as "contact geometry". So far I know you stand prone, air pump and hope. I've asked you for reference material to educate myself. If not a descriptive post somewhere on the forum, maybe a cheap book or pamphlet..?

I'd be more than willing to blend CG into my game if I find it has merit.

 

[BC21]

I didn't check your link yet but by your own medicine, 30 years playing and you ha'n't broke 700? Who you tryin to kid?

I'd say about 98% of all players in the fargo system are below 700. So, unless someone quits their job and dedicates 40+ hours to playing every week, hitting 700 is going to be very unlikely.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

BHE is the best method I know of to push your mechanics off alignment.

WRONG! You just don't know what there is to know as well as how to perform it. It's not just in the English, BH is a complete way of playing the entire game! Alignment, spin, stroke, accuracy, banking...ALL of it in one package.

And here we were getting along so swimmingly.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Do you speak English?

I said insisting on a video shows your lack of knowledge, not that a video itself would (although I'm pretty sure you'd find a way).

So once again you're being dumb and/or dishonest - I'm going with "and".

pj
chgo

Since I'm willing to do a video, you're unwilling, how does my insisting you put up or shut up show my lack of anything?

I've been honest, factual, and more than patient. So let's be clear, rather than my repeated offer:

Have a referree or us choose some shots with english, with varying degrees of difficulty, for you to perform/demonstrate with traditional english, me with both traditional and alternative shots, so that the advantages and limitations of different methods are evident, clear . . .

I'm going with put up or shut up.

 

[Jimmorrison]

WTF should PJ post a vid demonstrating applying English to the cue ball? There are a ton of very well done vids out there. If your dad, can beat up my dad, does that make it okay he is a pedophile? What a bunch of stupid concepts advanced in this thread.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Since I'm willing to do a video, you're unwilling, how does my insisting you put up or shut up show my lack of anything?

I've been honest, factual, and more than patient. So let's be clear, rather than my repeated offer:

Have a referree or us choose some shots with english, with varying degrees of difficulty, for you to perform/demonstrate with traditional english, me with both traditional and alternative shots, so that the advantages and limitations of different methods are evident, clear . . .

I'm going with put up or shut up.

You lose both ways. He's not going to put up and he's certainly not going to shut up. You think it's about pool. Being on a pool forum for him is the art of the put down to make whoever look like a fool while he's king on the mountain surrounded by fawning sycophants.

 

[The_JV]

I see that you put a good bit of validity into Fargo ratings which is fine if someone is involved in league play or tournaments.
Everyone isn't but they can be excellent players that play for money but don't have the time for leagues because they're still working stiffs putting in the hours where they make a lot more money. I won't call them gamblers necessarily because there are those who flat out know from watching that there's no gamble at all since they could waste everyone in the room, or a high percentage for the bucks.

I am definitively a fan of fargo. I enjoy the pure math of the rating methodology. ...and I agree that there was a world before it existed. Wherein many players that have various A/B/C, semi-pro/shortstop ratings played extremely well.

Straightline is not mandated to post playing credentials so he can voice his opinion. No differently then my willingness to do so should bolster mine. What it does do though is provide perspective. Really no different then claiming a 14.1 century break vs proving a video of oneself performing one.

But let's talk about Fargo and other credentials. What would you think about a person who had OVER a 700 Fargo rating and has it currently, and before Fargo was even in the imagination stage of it being created? How about if the person won a professional event with other professional players and finished high in some other pro tournaments?

Let's add something else. The same individual became and has been a Master Instructor in the PBIA of pool which takes a number of years and dedication to knowledge and professionalism? https://bca-pool.com/page/HowToInstruct/PBIA-Requirements.htm#:~:text=Become a Billiard Instructor with,to become qualified billiard instructors.

What If they taught one of their children to acquire the greatest amateur record during their youth in the history of the game as well as to be able to beat top pro players in matches?

How about that same person giving lessons to top women professionals and top male professionals who are good enough to be on the Mosconi Cup team 3 times as a result of the training?

I think you know who I'm talking about but on THIS forum it's a major sin to say his name...Stan Shuffett! Why? Because of those UNDER a 600 Fargo can say and do as they please and get away with it. Should this be like it is?

Are you asking me if I would apply additional respect to Stan's opinion on play then I am Straightline's because of his history of play and success passing on his teachings...? 100% I do... I know I've been painted as anti-CTE in the aiming forum, but i's really not the case. I even tried to watch the videos on YT to try and speak from a place of some education. When I posed questions here. I was shamed and the threads quickly turned into wars between others.

Regardless if I have any interest in adopting a system, any system. I wholeheartedly would shut up and listen to someone with such knowledge and success.

How I play is along the lines of what he teaches in various ways. Either an angled cue from a pivot or center and edge visuals.

Many ways to skin a cat. You've found one that works for you. Kudos

No need to answer if you don't feel like it. I didn't do this to set a trap or anything else for a flame war. Just sayin'. There are many different ways of doing things at the table.

100% ...but that still doesn't mean that the odds of landing perfectly on a shot are even remotely close to good. The vast majority of players are constantly making corrections that they're not even aware of. Some simply refuse to admit the possibility.

***Addition:
I want to add that although I don't believe Straightline lands perfectly on his shots. That does not translate to me completely discounting his CG method. I'm more than willing to extend the courtesy to read/listen, much like I would Stan. To this point, he has just simply displayed no interest in spreading his gospel. That's no fault of mine.

 

[The_JV]

WRONG! You just don't know what there is to know as well as how to perform it. It's not just in the English, BH is a complete way of playing the entire game! Alignment, spin, stroke, accuracy, banking...ALL of it in one package.

And here we were getting along so swimmingly.

Hey I'm cool with being wrong. However it takes more then just saying I am

So let me ask you this. If your upper body remains still and you employ BHE. How does your body (to encompass all possible movements) shift the butt end of the cue either left or right..?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Since I'm willing to do a video, you're unwilling, how does my insisting you put up or shut up show my lack of anything?

Since "putting up" a video would prove nothing about BHE/FHE, simply insisting on it shows you don't understand the topic.

I'd ask you to simply describe clearly what you do to correct for squirt/swerve (you know, like an "instructor" could), but you've already shown us that's not going to happen.

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Since "putting up" a video would prove nothing about BHE/FHE, simply insisting on it shows you don't understand the topic.

I'd ask you to simply describe clearly what you do to correct for squirt/swerve (you know, like an "instructor" could), but you've already shown us that's not going to happen.

pj
chgo

I've been more than polite, factual, and patient.

I've noticed when people are losing debates, they tend to twist others' words and make personal attacks. You lost this debate nearly before it began.

And since you twist words on this forum, I'd gladly describe clearly squirt/swerve corrections and more, via VIDEO.

Either put up a video or shut up.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

You lose both ways. He's not going to put up and he's certainly not going to shut up. You think it's about pool. Being on a pool forum for him is the art of the put down to make whoever look like a fool while he's king on the mountain surrounded by fawning sycophants.

Only, where are the sycophants on this thread? Joker on the mountain, neither king nor ace.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Hey I'm cool with being wrong. However it takes more then just saying I am

I've posted this video before. If you had me blocked, you didn't see it. But now that I'm not blocked here it is again just for you.
If you disagree with what he's doing and say it can't work, then you are WRONG. If you DO NOT get on the table and do it for yourself to see what happens, nothing will change your mind and I'll end up jumping on you like a wolf that hasn't eaten in a week. Btw, he has put out a number of great videos and if you and he were playing a match or for money, six figures of my money would be on him as the winner. I'd also be willing to bet his Fargo rate is higher than yours with virtually no swings up or down.

So let me ask you this. If your upper body remains still and you employ BHE. How does your body (to encompass all possible movements) shift the butt end of the cue either left or right..?

You tell me and I'll tell you if you're right or wrong. Give it some thought...THINK!

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Only, where are the sycophants on this thread?

Seriously? They're the ones punctuating his inane posts.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Are you asking me if I would apply additional respect to Stan's opinion on play then I am Straightline's because of his history of play and success passing on his teachings...? 100% I do...

I would hope so. It should also include PJ. ZERO credentials, low playing level, no heart for money or competition, but around for almost 30 years on forums spouting off about the math, science, feel, and 2D drawings. WOW, isn't THAT impressive!

I know I've been painted as anti-CTE in the aiming forum, but i's really not the case. I even tried to watch the videos on YT to try and speak from a place of some education. When I posed questions here. I was shamed and the threads quickly turned into wars between others.

I don't remember that happening with you and others and I'm pretty tuned in to the surroundings.

Regardless if I have any interest in adopting a system, and system. I wholeheartedly would shut up and listen to someone with such knowledge and success.
Many ways to skin a cat. You've found one that works for you. Kudos

No, I've found a couple of ways that work and it was done entirely over the years based on a process of elimination from high success and consistency vs. lower success and less consistency.

I want to add that although I don't believe Straightline lands perfectly on his shots. That does not translate to me completely discounting his CG method. I'm more than willing to extend the courtesy to read/listen, much like I would Stan. To this point, he has just simply displayed no interest in spreading his gospel. That's no fault of mine.

I would hope Stan wins out with his playing record and skills, and total background of successes in pool. Whatever you and Straightline have going between you is something I really don't care about or want to get involved with.

 

[sparkle84]

I've posted this video before. If you had me blocked, you didn't see it. But now that I'm not blocked here it is again just for you.
If you disagree with what he's doing and say it can't work, then you are WRONG. If you DO NOT get on the table and do it for yourself to see what happens, nothing will change your mind and I'll end up jumping on you like a wolf that hasn't eaten in a week. Btw, he has put out a number of great videos and if you and he were playing a match or for money, six figures of my money would be on him as the winner. I'd also be willing to bet his Fargo rate is higher than yours with virtually no swings up or down.

You tell me and I'll tell you if you're right or wrong. Give it some thought...THINK!

Once again your perception regarding the JV is seriously flawed. He'd destroy your lil Chris. News flash: This ain't the APA

 

[The_JV]

I've posted this video before. If you had me blocked, you didn't see it. But now that I'm not blocked here it is again just for you.
If you disagree with what he's doing and say it can't work, then you are WRONG. If you DO NOT get on the table and do it for yourself to see what happens, nothing will change your mind and I'll end up jumping on you like a wolf that hasn't eaten in a week.

One sec... I don't disagree at all with the concept that BHE can apply english to a CB. ...so no, as far as my opinion goes (whatever that's worth) it totally works. I don't need to get on a table and try it.

Btw, he has put out a number of great videos and if you and he were playing a match or for money, six figures of my money would be on him as the winner. I'd also be willing to bet his Fargo rate is higher than yours with virtually no swings up or down.

I've heard of lil'Chris. I have no idea what his real full name is, but will take your word that he is an accomplished player and carries a rating higher than mine. So we're clear. Someone doesn't need a rating higher than mine to get me to consider their approach.

You tell me and I'll tell you if you're right or wrong. Give it some thought...THINK!

It's exactly what I knew already and the video you posted backs it up.

Hopefully I don't need to add arrows to highlight what should be very obvious. Mr. Lil' shifts his arm back and forth horizontally to alter tip placement. This is my "problem" with BHE. He's altered his mechanics for sake of applying english. Based on his elbow position it looks as though the entire adjustment is at the shoulder. I could be wrong. I think he's cueing to extremes in the demo pic'd, so you have what..?..., maybe >1" of lateral tip movement. Which translates to roughly ~4" at the butt...? The difference in elbow placement doesn't support that amount, but I'm not going to jump to other conclusions.

So, to utilize BHE you alter your mechanical set up. The 2 strokes above are different in relation to the body. This is inconsistency and a great way to manifest flaws in cueing. Can it be learnt and effective...?..., most certainly. Do I think a beginner should unnecessarily steepen their learning curve for sake of it...?..., hell no.

In comparison, I pivot my entire upper body. This allows me to maintain my mechanics and the 4 points of cue contact I prefer to employ, (grip, chest, chin, bridge). I'm not bashful in stating my stroke is as straight as a CF arrow. I worked very hard to get it that way and it's consistency has pulled me out of shooting slumps more times then I could possibly recall.

While I don't doubt the ability of BHE to impart spin on the CB. I do view it as a means to complicate mechanics and cause those attempting to ingrain fundamentals additional difficulty.

 

[sparkle84]

His Fargo is in the 630-40 range and plays mostly on bar tables

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Once again your perception regarding the JV is seriously flawed. He'd destroy your lil Chris. News flash: This ain't the APA

Then I would hope JV puts as many videos out on YouTube like L'il Chris does to help the world of pool.
Can we pick which facet of pool he could do it on?

Btw, who do you think would win between JV and Stan Shuffett; JV and Landon Shuffett; JV and Tyler Styer.
This is like the hometown hero who can shoot par in golf at the local muni or club and all the regulars thinking he'd
kick ass and take names later against a top national amateur or pro player.
I guess what you've never heard of when there's something REALLY BIG on the line like a bunch of money or national notoriety,
something else kicks in. It's a medical term known as PUCKERING ASSHOLE SYNDROME and TREMORS.

 

[The_JV]

Then I would hope JV puts as many videos out on YouTube like L'il Chris does to help the world of pool.

Not my cup of tea... I have YT content but I don't bother with pool related topics. Too many content creators that get morphed into false idols already. No need to heap my name on that pile. Of course that assumes I have something worth viewing.

Can we pick which facet of pool he could do it on?

I'm an authority on nothing, so I don't see the value changing...lol.

Btw, who do you think would win between JV and Stan Shuffett; JV and Landon Shuffett; JV and Tyler Styer.

The better player on that day...? Do I win a prize..?

This is like the hometown hero who can shoot par in golf at the local muni or club and all the regulars thinking he'd
kick ass and take names later against a top national amateur or pro player.

It isn't like that. It's 100% like that. I have zero delusions about my ability, and I'm pretty sure I said it earlier today that I consider myself just a strong club player.

I guess what you've never heard of when there's something REALLY BIG on the line like a bunch of money or national notoriety,
something else kicks in. It's a medical term known as PUCKERING ASSHOLE SYNDROME and TREMORS.

I suffer from that in spades. Simply don't have the nerves I used to. Performance anxiety is a real problem.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I'm an authority on nothing, so I don't see the value changing...lol.

The better player on that day...? Do I win a prize..?

Do you honestly think you could be the better player on any given day against them?

It isn't like that. It's 100% like that. I have zero delusions about my ability, and I'm pretty sure I said it earlier today that I consider myself just a strong club player.

I have no reason to disbelieve it. As good as it may be, most have no clue just how good the really good and best are. I
visit Allen Hopkins every few months at his home and get humbly reminded. It's mind blowing to be right there playing with one of the greats in the HOF and see first hand what they can do and how their mind works.

I suffer from that in spades. Simply don't have the nerves I used to. Performance anxiety is a real problem.

For many, not just you.