Truth! :grin:
Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour
Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour
Loose Grip/Tight Grip and Resulting Cueball Action
- Thread starter Biloxi Boy
- Start date
One tool away from greatness!
Wood turners say "one tool away from greatness" but they are too well aware they are being tongue in cheek or sarcastic. If only it was so easy! Can't buy your way to greatness or great play but people never quit trying!
Hu
Wood turners say "one tool away from greatness" but they are too well aware they are being tongue in cheek or sarcastic. If only it was so easy! Can't buy your way to greatness or great play but people never quit trying!
Hu
This is the key.
I use a grip that is probably tighter than what many use, but I find it works best for me.
Biloxi Boy
Man With A Golden Arm
Unless we have had fomal instruction, I suspect we all employ a shooting form which developed naturally and was influenced only by comments in "pool hall school". I always heard a lot of discussion about "stroke" but never "grip". "Follow through" also garnered a great deal of instruction. At some point, many years ago, I got my hands on a book about pool which contained a discussion about gripping the cue with two, or three, fingers (the "V" grip?) which I attempted but gave up on because it never felt right and absorbed too much of my conscious thought. Ultimately, to shoot my best, I need to be in the "zone" and anything that intrudes or disrupts is counterproductive.
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I watch the cue. I taught my stroke "linear" . It's easy to remember and takes far less heartache than customizing your stroke for transient conditions.
Biloxi Boy
Man With A Golden Arm
"Linear" is good. I always practiced "parallel".
Pubo
Active member
Hi Bob, sorry for digging up this old post lol, but this effective weight of the cue is constantly bugging me. I read all your and Dr.Dave's comments/articles in this post, and what I don't understand is, what is the criterion for determining if the weight of the hand is involved in the impact or not? How do we know that the normal grip adds 1% of effective weight to the cue? What is the reasoning behind this? So far my own explanation is that the palm is very flexible, so during the tip-ball impact, the cue slides on the palm as if there is no hand: the skin effectively serves as a lubricant between the hand and the cue. Therefore the hand doesn't participate in the collision at all (in practical sense). Does my explanation make sense? Or did I misunderstand something?
If you study the speed vs. time curve of the cue stick, you can derive the spring constants for both tip-ball contact and the hand-cue contact. That leads to the effective mass increase of the cue stick due to the contribution of the hand.
In plain English!
The players that use more of their wrists give more rotation to the cue as it is swung back and forth. You may want to use a finger grip when applying maximum effect to the cue ball, (the cue ball maintains spin on 3 or more cushions.)
Just at the point before contacting the cue ball, the player will have better rhythm and timing in their delivery of their cue. It's at that split second when the wrist breaks, just before contacting the cue ball. This is the main reason why some players are able to create more effect on the cue ball than other players; fortunately, I've been one of those players that possesses this attribute.
The players that use more of their wrists give more rotation to the cue as it is swung back and forth. You may want to use a finger grip when applying maximum effect to the cue ball, (the cue ball maintains spin on 3 or more cushions.)
Just at the point before contacting the cue ball, the player will have better rhythm and timing in their delivery of their cue. It's at that split second when the wrist breaks, just before contacting the cue ball. This is the main reason why some players are able to create more effect on the cue ball than other players; fortunately, I've been one of those players that possesses this attribute.
The simple move
Most average players are looking for some magical move to make just before they strike the cue ball, well; I'm here to tell you, there isn't one. It's the simple opening of the hand on the cue when swinging the cue back, and when the cue swings forward closing the hand around the cue with all fingers.
I think the video link and explanations on the grip tightness effects resource page explain it fairly well. FYI, I expanded the description a little today. As Bob points out, because the grip hand flesh is so much more flexible than the tip, the CB is gone before the grip feels anything from the CB impact, so it can't contribute much to the mass of the cue during the collision.
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Pubo
Active member
Thank you for the quick reply. Appreciate it.
Now, if the grip were rigidly attached to the cue (which is not the case with a human shooter), the mass of the hand and arm would certainly contribute to the effective mass of the cue. This is actually a problem when attempting to design cue testing machines. It is very important to isolate the machine from the cue with a human-like flexible "grip hand." For more info, see the "problem with a non-human, extremely-firm robot grip" paragraph here:
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The Old Jaybird
Well-known member
Greatest stroke ever.....Cowboy Jimmy Moore, it was like his whole arm was running on ball bearings. Only saw him as an old man, but the first time I saw him play I thought, this guy has played a LOT of pool and that stroke is amazing, like a teen ager.
891014+1
Active member
None is better over the other... Pinois play loose grip, Filler plays tight grip...do you know what i mean?
Snooker players (best technic available) play loose grip at back stroke and tight grip at follow through, so... One needs to practice enough until understand what suits naturally better.
Snooker players (best technic available) play loose grip at back stroke and tight grip at follow through, so... One needs to practice enough until understand what suits naturally better.
Badpenguin
Well-known member
This is what I've always considered the "slip stroke". You let the cue slip through your grip on the forward swing, right before contact with the cue ball. The end result is that you are throwing the cue through the cue ball. This business of releasing the cue during the back stroke is more of a preshot routine in my opinion, similar to when people spin their cue while between practice strokes.
In my younger days, when I could play for 6 to 20 hours of pool per day every day and had no real life otherwise, I used this stroke. It was particularly good for long range power draw shots. I believe that it worked well for power strokes because when gripping "normally", it was common for me to tighten my grip right before contact with the cue ball, which lowers where the tip hits, causing scoops. Either that or lowering the elbow, which raises the tip, lessening the draw. If you are throwing the cue tip into the cue ball, it is difficult for the back swing or a tightening grip to interfere. But for me, using that stroke and being good with it required hours and hours of playing daily. I don't even try it any more.
In my younger days, when I could play for 6 to 20 hours of pool per day every day and had no real life otherwise, I used this stroke. It was particularly good for long range power draw shots. I believe that it worked well for power strokes because when gripping "normally", it was common for me to tighten my grip right before contact with the cue ball, which lowers where the tip hits, causing scoops. Either that or lowering the elbow, which raises the tip, lessening the draw. If you are throwing the cue tip into the cue ball, it is difficult for the back swing or a tightening grip to interfere. But for me, using that stroke and being good with it required hours and hours of playing daily. I don't even try it any more.
billiards_watch
Well-known member
Good topic and more people should study this.
It's the truth.
It's the truth.
Everyone seems to keep referring to letting the cue slide forward (throwing the cue) as a "slip stroke"...I've always considered a slip stroke to be holding the cue slightly forward of dead hang, then slipping the grip hand back a couple of inches on the back swing, forcing your cue to follow through the contact. Many if not most of the top Straight Pool players of old did it, notably Cisero Murphy, the Meat Man, even Willie Mosconi (sometimes). Watch Cisero at the 9:07 mark...
Yes, the original slipstroke referred to the hand slipping back on the final back stroke. Purely in an effort to end the confusion a handful of people on this forum agreed to call the release of the cue to let it slide forward just before contact with the cue ball a stroke slip to differentiate between the two completely different moves. Most of the people in those old discussions are gone now but I think the terminology should remain to minimize confusion. Releasing the cue on final delivery is not a slip stroke.
Hard to see Cisero's slip, Jimmy Moore is another almost full time slip stroke user with some cleaner video. The old players usually had a handful of strokes in their arsenal and would use whichever was best for a particular shot. I had footage of Willie using a slip stroke in practice for no particular reason so obviously practicing the shot. He often used a tiny slip, difficult to see. However, he also used a pretty big slip sometimes. The old players were versatile and saw no reason why one stroke should have to fit all occasions.
I try to practice a slip stroke now and then simply because done well it may be the prettiest stroke in pool. I had video of an old master of the slip stroke that made it seem that he had an extra joint between elbow and wrist or that his forearm was made of rubber! I was playing somebodcheap and was using the slip stroke. After twenty minutes or so he couldn't help himself, "What are you doing?"
One place the slip stroke really shines is the shots with the cue ball on the rail. The shot feels much more like a typical shot when you add a slip.
Hu
I believe this also. It’s not the loose grip that creates more “action’, but the loose wrist. You can’t have a loose wrist with a tight grip.