Are Junior players being set up for a tough life?

[rexus31]

I think the key here is to have one's expectations in place. No matter how hard one practices, how much one wins/bets in action matches, and how much effort a player makes to improve, it is always worth bringing in an expert opinion.

I recall a recent post by JAM noting that Keith had watched the 12-year-old Josh Filler play and knew he was watching a future great. Thorsten Hohmann had said the same of the very young Filler.

Do the top pros see greatness in Colsten? By the age of 18, for example, the future greats can usually comfortably gamble with all but the best 50 players in the world. We now live in a world in which any player not carrying a Fargo of 790+ will be hard pressed to earn a living at pro pool and a Fargo 750 is a long, long way from world class speed. We also live in a world in which expecting to earn a living through action pool alone is probably unrealistic.

Where is Colsten's game relative to those who went on to earn a living at pro pool? Does he play as well at his age as they did at his age? He needs to know if he is going to make the best possible decisions with respect to his path in life.

Not so sure you can compare the European and Asian juniors to American juniors. If I'm not mistaken, most European (Germany included) and Asian countries have government funded federations and development programs because they view it as a legitimate sport. From what I've read, gambling is frowned upon by the Euros so their juniors aren't going out and matching up for decent/big money. Maybe not so much by the Asians? I'd be real curious what became of the juniors that were part of Filler's "class" who weren't skilled enough to compete at the highest level. At the end of the day and as someone else pointed out, this is no different than the 70's and 80's when kids were being taken on the road. The only difference is we have social media now so it's more publicized/scrutinized. IMO, I think it's a bad idea for kids to be heading down the road player/gambling path.

 

[sjm]

Not so sure you can compare the European and Asian juniors to American juniors. If I'm not mistaken, most European (Germany included) and Asian countries have government funded federations and development programs because they view it as a legitimate sport. From what I've read, gambling is frowned upon by the Euros so their juniors aren't going out and matching up for decent/big money. Maybe not so much by the Asians? I'd be real curious what became of the juniors that were part of Filler's "class" who weren't skilled enough to compete at the highest level. At the end of the day and as someone else pointed out, this is no different than the 70's and 80's when kids were being taken on the road. The only difference is we have social media now so it's more publicized/scrutinized. IMO, I think it's a bad idea for kids to be heading down the road player/gambling path.

Thanks for these insights. Yes, there are foundational advantages for emerging players in some of the Asian and European countries which can make the pursuit of excellence at pool less costly. No doubt, these, at least to some extent, explain why certain countries like Germany, Poland, and Taiwan have produced a lot of top players.

 

[kollegedave]

I saw a thread on Facebook where Colston Harrelson (great young player) has been matching up with people for $10k sets. Someone commented something about being careful going down this road and make sure he has a backup plan if the pool thing doesn't work out. He took a lot of heat for that, but it got me thinking. I see tons of junior players out there asking for sponsorships and traveling from city to city playing big tournaments. Very few of these young players are going to carve out a living playing pool. Not sure what kind of conversation I'm even looking for here, but does anyone else see what I see? There are teenagers out there posting of big tournaments and matchups that can't string a legible sentence together.

Things are no longer as simple as "stay in school". The decision to pursue pool or not, has to be made by each individual taking into account their unique strengths and weaknesses for the purpose of achieving what they want.

As a teenager, I showed some promise in pool. Other promising young players from my area pursued pool, and I pursued education. Currently, I will have health insurance when I get cancer, and I live in a nice house, but I am not as skilled at pool as the kids that stuck with it. Many people would look at this situation, and say, "See, Dave made good decisions." Maybe, but that was twenty years ago.

Now, A.I. does portions of my job better than me. Undergraduate degrees have never been less valuable, and they are getting less valuable by the day. School loans (which most people need) are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Is it a good idea to take out super high loans that cannot be escaped while A.I. creates downward pressure on wages or to work at all? Maybe not.

I share your worry about public education of our people. It's clear, at the population level in the U.S., we are lacking in some basic history and civics knowledge. However, I am not sure if follows that it makes sense for everyone to pursue degrees, especially if they have some advantages in achieving a high skill level in any discipline. I think this is particularly true for young men. (but that's for another thread).

It does seem to me, that many Americans who pursue pool as a profession, do not treat it as a profession. Turning Pro, by Steven Pressfield, is a book about turning pro in any discipline. I read this book, and it becomes clear to me that many American players who have a professional skill level in playing pool, still have not turned pro. American pool players do not have some advantages that some European or Asian players have. So what. In my mind, the American spirit is to consider your own challenges and look for a way to turn them into advantages.

Information on skill development in all sorts of disciplines is more available than ever. Information on pool is more available than ever. Traditional ways of making a life are more in danger than ever. If a young person wants to be a professional pool player, I am not sure it's a bad thing, especially if they have some environmental advantages (like access to free table time early in life or an adult who will help them along).

Some current professional players are showing ways to make a professional life in pool work (SVB, Fillers, Gorst, Yapp, and Biado). These players (and others) show there may be a future for player that treats their pool career like a profession and not an extended adolescence.

kollegedave

 

[garczar]

I said, the smart kids...

you're clueless. heyball will NEVER be a thing in the US. has nothing to do with being smart or not.

 

[Jaden]

What about the "influencers"? Are they better or worse off than young promising athletes?

Worse, way worse. They're relying on the trend of the day and their youth. A youth misspent chasing a sports dream at least leaves you with tangible skills and there's always "if you can't do teach". Someone who truly knows a game and how to get there can make good money at it by teaching. My college roommate in the mid 90's was on a high jump scholarship. He was in college, I was playing pool and running a local pool hall. He was also a decent pool player, which is how we met. He ended up taking up golf in 2007 and is now a house pro at a course in Irvine and makes a good living giving lessons.

Like most of the people who excel at something, they can usually do well at anything they set themselves to. That's just not the case with influencers. Whether they're successful because of their looks, or the current trends, etc..That's way more perishable than skill and knoweldge.

 

[Magictrat007]

To answer the question of the original post, I would say not really once you become an adult you’re free to try to become a lawyer doctor Pool, player or whatever you want.

 

[middleofnowhere]

Thanks for these insights. Yes, there are foundational advantages for emerging players in some of the Asian and European countries which can make the pursuit of excellence at pool less costly. No doubt, these, at least to some extent, explain why certain countries like Germany, Poland, and Taiwan have produced a lot of top players.

I don't know what it's like now, I remember when I was playing in Germany I'd go into a pool room and if I'm going to practice by myself they only charged me the equivalent of a dollar an hour. They referred to as training time.
Pretty tough for a kid to learn to play in the US when he only wants to do is practice and its $10 an hour. Pool nowadays is not a cheap game.
.

 

[highkarate]

Worse, way worse. They're relying on the trend of the day and their youth. A youth misspent chasing a sports dream at least leaves you with tangible skills and there's always "if you can't do teach". Someone who truly knows a game and how to get there can make good money at it by teaching. My college roommate in the mid 90's was on a high jump scholarship. He was in college, I was playing pool and running a local pool hall. He was also a decent pool player, which is how we met. He ended up taking up golf in 2007 and is now a house pro at a course in Irvine and makes a good living giving lessons.

Like most of the people who excel at something, they can usually do well at anything they set themselves to. That's just not the case with influencers. Whether they're successful because of their looks, or the current trends, etc..That's way more perishable than skill and knoweldge.

Meh. It’s an industry. If you get close but fail, you can teach ppl how to influence. Like your golf friend. Everything is perishable when you zoom out far enough

 

[straightline]

I don't know what it's like now, I remember when I was playing in Germany I'd go into a pool room and if I'm going to practice by myself they only charged me the equivalent of a dollar an hour. They referred to as training time.
Pretty tough for a kid to learn to play in the US when he only wants to do is practice and its $10 an hour. Pool nowadays is not a cheap game.
.

NATION GETS HOODWINKED

15 dollar minimum wage!1!!1!!11

 

[skogstokig]

Some current professional players are showing ways to make a professional life in pool work (SVB, Fillers, Gorst, Yapp, and Biado). These players (and others) show there may be a future for player that treats their pool career like a profession and not an extended adolescence.

that's very well put. i also wonder what future there is in approaching it from the gambling angle, rather than trying to get sponsors, work on the social media thingie (which i admit to still not fully understand) and play tournaments

you have some good points about AI and higher education, none of us know what the future holds. a small digression on that, i saw the other day an AI ping pong robot that could beat all but the very best male players. wonder when we'll see something similar in pool

 

[iusedtoberich]

Another perspective is if this was a 25 year old, it wouldn't be a big deal, right? We'd all be tuning in without judgment. What's the difference between 16 and 25? Yes, I KNOW there is some difference. But when it comes down to it, I personally don't think my brain was much different at 16 vs 25 vs 47 I am now. I liked pool then and was gambling what I had in my pocket. I like pool now and still do the same.

 

[sjm]

Some current professional players are showing ways to make a professional life in pool work (SVB, Fillers, Gorst, Yapp, and Biado). These players (and others) show there may be a future for player that treats their pool career like a profession and not an extended adolescence.

Yes, and for every one of them, there are at least ten that are just as dedicated, equally professional and work just as hard as these guys but don't have the ability and skills to ever get there.

Let's not tell a youngster that "if you're sufficiently talented and dedicated, fully professional in your approach, and you work your tail off, you will get near the top of the game." On the contrary, the odds are they will not, and unless they understand this, they may take the wrong path.

That said, if a top pro who is qualified has watched them and identified them as likely to be a future great, that is different, but even a 16-year old carrying a Fargo 750 is a longshot to ever be one of the best 50 players in the world, the ones who can make a living at the game.

As for whether they should go to college, that's irrelevant. There are careers for which they could plan, some of which require a college degree and some of which do not, and if they put all their eggs in the pool basket, they will be foregoing chances to develop skills in other areas that might one day earn them a good living. So many of those who put all their eggs in the pool basket find themselves in a very bad situation if it turns out that pool won't pay the bills.

In a chat he and I had in the 1990s, Allen Hopkins offered that if a player doesn't show signs of world class speed by the age of 18, the odds are they will never do so. Yes, there are exceptions but, for the most part, Allen is right.

In my opinion, we need to tell our youngsters to figure out, with all available assistance, by age 18 whether their prospects are good enough to pursue a career in pro pool. We can encourage them to give it everything they have up to that point, but watching the many "not quite skilled enough" players trying to eke out a living from pool must offer a red flag for all but the worthiest as they set their course.

 

[Coos Cues]

you're clueless. heyball will NEVER be a thing in the US. has nothing to do with being smart or not.

How's soccer doing after decades?

 

[kling&allen]

Pretty tough for a kid to learn to play in the US when he only wants to do is practice and its $10 an hour. Pool nowadays is not a cheap game.
.

And doubly so where the tables are $10 an hour in a bar filled with people there to drink. Few parents are going to drop their kids off after school at such a place. I’ve only seen a handful of the European rooms, and I’m sure some are stanky, but they seem by and large to be a place for sport and not drinking.

 

[kollegedave]

Yes, and for every one of them, there are at least ten that are just as dedicated, equally professional and work just as hard as these guys but don't have the ability and skills to ever get there.

Let's not tell a youngster that "if you're sufficiently talented and dedicated, fully professional in your approach, and you work your tail off, you will get near the top of the game." On the contrary, the odds are they will not, and unless they understand this, they may take the wrong path.

That said, if a top pro who is qualified has watched them and identified them as likely to be a future great, that is different, but even a 16-year old carrying a Fargo 750 is a longshot to ever be one of the best 50 players in the world, the ones who can make a living at the game.

As for whether they should go to college, that's irrelevant. There are careers for which they could plan, some of which require a college degree and some of which do not, and if they put all their eggs in the pool basket, they will be foregoing chances to develop skills in other areas that might one day earn them a good living. So many of those who put all their eggs in the pool basket find themselves in a very bad situation if it turns out that pool won't pay the bills.

In a chat he and I had in the 1990s, Allen Hopkins offered that if a player doesn't show signs of world class speed by the age of 18, the odds are they will never do so. Yes, there are exceptions but, for the most part, Allen is right.

In my opinion, we need to tell our youngsters to figure out, with all available assistance, by age 18 whether their prospects are good enough to pursue a career in pro pool. We can encourage them to give it everything they have up to that point, but watching the many "not quite skilled enough" players trying to eke out a living from pool must offer a red flag for all but the worthiest as they set their course.

I think Allen Hopkins is probably right about having to show signs of world class ability by 18. It seems unlikely to me that a young person would show these signs by 18 without some environmental advantages, which I alluded to in my post. For sure, there are careers options that are worthwhile to pursue without a college degree, and count me as a the biggest proponent of those. I guess I read the original post to imply that the kids should stay in school and "school" meant a four-year degree.

College and the inevitable graduate-degree-mill is not what it used to be, and just like dedication and professionalism does not guarantee success for an aspiring pool player, neither do degrees. How a young person winds up making a living for themselves is an increasingly complicated decision-making process.

kollegedave

 

[rexus31]

How's soccer doing after decades?

Apples, meet oranges. The US has one of the largest youth soccer programs in the world (AYSO), it just never really got traction as a professional sport here until recently. I'm not seeing any amateur Heyball leagues popping up. I'd doubt there are 100 Heyball tables in the US.

 

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Yes, and for every one of them, there are at least ten that are just as dedicated, equally professional and work just as hard as these guys but don't have the ability and skills to ever get there.



In a chat he and I had in the 1990s, Allen Hopkins offered that if a player doesn't show signs of world class speed by the age of 18, the odds are they will never do so. Yes, there are exceptions but, for the most part, Allen is right.

In my opinion, we need to tell our youngsters to figure out, with all available assistance, by age 18 whether their prospects are good enough to pursue a career in pro pool. We can encourage them to give it everything they have up to that point, but watching the many "not quite skilled enough" players trying to eke out a living from pool must offer a red flag for all but the worthiest as they set their course.

SJM, what would you say is the minimum for WORLD CLASS speed today? Use a player we all know if you can think of one. Brandon Shuff? Josh Roberts? Like John Morra is probably solidly in for world class speed but how much does he make a year in tournaments really? I'm too lazy for research.

Sure, the money in pool is better than it used to be, but it's still not much. And it still only goes to the very very best. Prize money beyond top 4 in events is hardly enough to cover expenses for most events

I bet most people in the forum would look at a salary under 6 figures as being not enough. Now make 40-80,000 or less and add to that 3-5 dozen flights and hotels etc and you're downright destitute.

It'll likely never happen but until 2000 people or so can make 200,000 or more per year(in today's economy) doing it, it's downright a hobby for most of them.

 

[jasonlaus]

SJM, what would you say is the minimum for WORLD CLASS speed today? Use a player we all know if you can think of one. Brandon Shuff? Josh Roberts? Like John Morra is probably solidly in for world class speed but how much does he make a year in tournaments really? I'm too lazy for research.

Sure, the money in pool is better than it used to be, but it's still not much. And it still only goes to the very very best. Prize money beyond top 4 in events is hardly enough to cover expenses for most events

I bet most people in the forum would look at a salary under 6 figures as being not enough. Now make 40-80,000 or less and add to that 3-5 dozen flights and hotels etc and you're downright destitute.

It'll likely never happen but until 2000 people or so can make 200,000 or more per year(in today's economy) doing it, it's downright a hobby for most of them.

Very few making an actual living, now there are those that will come on here claiming 20 - 30k/year is making a living as long as they're alive. Lol

 

[middleofnowhere]

Another perspective is if this was a 25 year old, it wouldn't be a big deal, right? We'd all be tuning in without judgment. What's the difference between 16 and 25? Yes, I KNOW there is some difference. But when it comes down to it, I personally don't think my brain was much different at 16 vs 25 vs 47 I am now. I liked pool then and was gambling what I had in my pocket. I like pool now and still do the same.

The gambling trap is this. The economics are so much different than the paid by hour job. When a guy wins 2 or $300.00 or even a thousand in a night or two. It's pretty tough to go back to work at a $15 an hour job.

I'm not saying that the gambling is better than the job certainly is not. What I'm saying is it messes with ones mind.

To skip back to a previous post by someone discussing ai and jobs. We've come full circle. Years ago a guy was always told to learn a trade. And later you were told it's better to work with your brain and with your hands.

Like I said we've come full circle. If a guy wants a steady job learn a trade. There's no AI that can install plumbing do carpentry, electrical work fixing an air conditioner and so on. And there's nothing to stop you once you're in that trade from ultimately having people working for you. There's really no limits how far you can go in a service business.

You have to be able to generate your income yourself and not depend on someone else. I had a lawn service business when I was in my teens making more money than my teachers. I owned a pool room when I was 25. I've only had a couple of jobs in my whole life.

 

[InsertCleverNameHere]

The gambling trap is this. The economics are so much different than the paid by hour job. When a guy wins 2 or $300.00 or even a thousand in a night or two. It's pretty tough to go back to work at a $15 an hour job.

I'm not saying that the gambling is better than the job certainly is not. What I'm saying is it messes with ones mind.

To skip back to a previous post by someone discussing ai and jobs. We've come full circle. Years ago a guy was always told to learn a trade. And later you were told it's better to work with your brain and with your hands.

Like I said we've come full circle. If a guy wants a steady job learn a trade. There's no AI that can install plumbing do carpentry, electrical work fixing an air conditioner and so on. And there's nothing to stop you once you're in that trade from ultimately having people working for you. There's really no limits how far you can go in a service business.

You have to be able to generate your income yourself and not depend on someone else. I had a lawn service business when I was in my teens making more money than my teachers. I owned a pool room when I was 25. I've only had a couple of jobs in my whole life.

I agree with that assessment in the short term, plumbers/carpenters etc "can't be replaced" But I think that's only in the near future. Looking down the line a bit, I don't believe that at all. My first grandson was just born and I fear there won't be any sort of job for him in 20 years.

Robotics and general automation has come a long way in a short time. It's not right in front of you yet so it's not on our radar so to speak. And it has done so without AI being on board. Now that AGI is the goal for all these global tech corporations, expect to robotics to be kicked into overdrive with the goal of replacing ALL HUMAN LABOR this is the only way these companies can turn a profit and that is absolutely their only goal damn the fallout/consequences. I could talk/complain about this all day. The future is quite BLEAK no matter what path you choose I'm afraid.