Are Junior players being set up for a tough life?

[mnorwood]

Another consideration in all of this is comparing the prospects of a young American player versus a European player. All of the European countries have a socialist system some even bordering on communism. For better or for worse a young person in Europe has all of their living essentials provided by the state. The flip side of it is if they go to college and pursue a career and are successful they end up giving most of their earnings back to the government which isn’t much of an incentive to work hard. Their challenge is to generate money for travel and entry expenses. In America a pool player makes it by having private benefactors especially if they are more on the gambling end of the game. That makes for a very insecure and volatile personal finance situation. How many of these players ever make it on winnings alone? Few to none in my estimation.

 

[sjm]

SJM, what would you say is the minimum for WORLD CLASS speed today? Use a player we all know if you can think of one. Brandon Shuff? Josh Roberts? Like John Morra is probably solidly in for world class speed but how much does he make a year in tournaments really? I'm too lazy for research.

Sure, the money in pool is better than it used to be, but it's still not much. And it still only goes to the very very best. Prize money beyond top 4 in events is hardly enough to cover expenses for most events

I bet most people in the forum would look at a salary under 6 figures as being not enough. Now make 40-80,000 or less and add to that 3-5 dozen flights and hotels etc and you're downright destitute.

It'll likely never happen but until 2000 people or so can make 200,000 or more per year(in today's economy) doing it, it's downright a hobby for most of them.

Great question. No matter how I answer this, I'll offend somebody, but I'm going to answer anyway. I'm only considering the question as it relates to men's 9ball and 10ball.

I think the cutoff these days is about Fargo 780, although there are young players on the horizon that are near certain to get there such as Pongers, Vogel, Gangflot, Verner and many others. A veteran player who is a little less than Fargo 780 is borderline. Billy Thorpe, who will turn 30 this summer, and is one of my favorite players, seems a good example of borderline world class, a guy who could conceivably make a deep run at a major championship but in practice nearly never does. At 778, he is the world's 160th best player based on Fargo. Obviously, Billy is world class and then some at both bank pool and one pocket.

I don't think how many can make a living at pro pool is what matters. In my opinion, what matters is whether an aspiring pro knows how many can do so. If the answer today is only about 50, then a person considering pro pool as a career must assess whether they can become a top 50 player and, if not, whether they can a) secure sufficient sponsorships, b) get paid appearances, and/or c) give lessons to give them some financial stability and continuity.

... and, finally, just like you, I have always referred to the many who compete at the highest level without a realistic chance of making an income as hobbyists. To be fair, though, many a hobbyist can turn a decent profit in regional and local tournaments and in league play.

 

[JPB2]

SJM, what would you say is the minimum for WORLD CLASS speed today? Use a player we all know if you can think of one. Brandon Shuff? Josh Roberts? Like John Morra is probably solidly in for world class speed but how much does he make a year in tournaments really? I'm too lazy for research.

Sure, the money in pool is better than it used to be, but it's still not much. And it still only goes to the very very best. Prize money beyond top 4 in events is hardly enough to cover expenses for most events

I bet most people in the forum would look at a salary under 6 figures as being not enough. Now make 40-80,000 or less and add to that 3-5 dozen flights and hotels etc and you're downright destitute.

It'll likely never happen but until 2000 people or so can make 200,000 or more per year(in today's economy) doing it, it's downright a hobby for most of them.

When I saw the top 200 list I put all of those players as world class. To me if you are top 200 worldwide in almost anything you should be considered world class. The problem is that in pool world class does not necessarily mean you can make a good living. That is a different way of saying what I did in my earlier post. You have to be a top player among players I consider world class to really do well. Some might argue whether top 200 is really world class. But there are 450 NBA players plus some who bounce around and play 10 day contracts and such. And pro leagues internationally with some great players. Close to 1700 NFL players, many of whom don’t last and don’t make fortunes admittedly. Around 750 NHL players plus the overseas leagues.

Doesn’t bode well for making a living in pool. How many businesses out there have more than 200 employees making livings with the top guys making more than top pool players by a lot? In many different fields. And then factor in all the smaller businesses that provide good careers and livings for so many. Pool has never been a great opportunity for very many people. Some can do well at it, sure. But a job creating machine it is not.

 

[lfigueroa]

I saw a thread on Facebook where Colston Harrelson (great young player) has been matching up with people for $10k sets. Someone commented something about being careful going down this road and make sure he has a backup plan if the pool thing doesn't work out. He took a lot of heat for that, but it got me thinking. I see tons of junior players out there asking for sponsorships and traveling from city to city playing big tournaments. Very few of these young players are going to carve out a living playing pool. Not sure what kind of conversation I'm even looking for here, but does anyone else see what I see? There are teenagers out there posting of big tournaments and matchups that can't string a legible sentence together.

The eternal optimism of youth is a powerful aphrodisiac— you can do anything, overcome any obstacle and persevere. As you get older it all turns out to be alot like drinking too much tequila, lol.

The core problem for a young player is the inability to understand how good “good” really is when it comes to the elite levels and how difficult it is to achieve world class play and squeeze a living out of the game. That, and looking at school and working hard at a real job as the alternative, it’s easy to make the wrong choice because “the truth” will not reveal itself until long after the damage is done.

Lou Figueroa

 

[jasonlaus]

When I saw the top 200 list I put all of those players as world class. To me if you are top 200 worldwide in almost anything you should be considered world class. The problem is that in pool world class does not necessarily mean you can make a good living. That is a different way of saying what I did in my earlier post. You have to be a top player among players I consider world class to really do well. Some might argue whether top 200 is really world class. But there are 450 NBA players plus some who bounce around and play 10 day contracts and such. And pro leagues internationally with some great players. Close to 1700 NFL players, many of whom don’t last and don’t make fortunes admittedly. Around 750 NHL players plus the overseas leagues.

Doesn’t bode well for making a living in pool. How many businesses out there have more than 200 employees making livings with the top guys making more than top pool players by a lot? In many different fields. And then factor in all the smaller businesses that provide good careers and livings for so many. Pool has never been a great opportunity for very many people. Some can do well at it, sure. But a job creating machine it is not.

Except for the # 100, 150, 200 will never make a living from tournaments, probably more like #30 and down

Not to mention NBA, NHL get paid whether they win or lose

 

[Island Drive]

I saw a thread on Facebook where Colston Harrelson (great young player) has been matching up with people for $10k sets. Someone commented something about being careful going down this road and make sure he has a backup plan if the pool thing doesn't work out. He took a lot of heat for that, but it got me thinking. I see tons of junior players out there asking for sponsorships and traveling from city to city playing big tournaments. Very few of these young players are going to carve out a living playing pool. Not sure what kind of conversation I'm even looking for here, but does anyone else see what I see? There are teenagers out there posting of big tournaments and matchups that can't string a legible sentence together.

My perspective, it's all about the parents and the choices and situations they teach their kids to be involved in.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Apples, meet oranges. The US has one of the largest youth soccer programs in the world (AYSO), it just never really got traction as a professional sport here until recently. I'm not seeing any amateur Heyball leagues popping up. I'd doubt there are 100 Heyball tables in the US.

Also nearly every single middle and high school already has a combo football/lacrosse/soccer/track field.

To get Chinese 8 ball in the USA popular a room owner would need to replace all of his pool tables with C8B tables. Never going to happen.

 

[penguin]

Except for the # 100, 150, 200 will never make a living from tournaments, probably more like #30 and down

Not to mention NBA, NHL get paid whether they win or lose

Pool players know how to get paid whether they win or lose.

The problem is the payouts are too low.

 

[iusedtoberich]

In college in 2002 I needed to take a couple of electives to graduate. One I took was called "Sociology of Sports". One of the main themes of the class was spending one's entire youth to become a sports star was about the same longshot as winning the lotto. The sports were the major USA ones.

There were many aspects to it:
-The probability of getting onto a pro team, even if your skills are tremendous, is almost zero.
-If you do get on a pro team, the avg salary is 400k USD per year. This data might have been a few years old at the time (2002), but keep in mind, the millions and millions we see as salaries are the first round draft picks. The other guys are way lower.
-The average career length is 4 years. Due to injury. Due to being dropped in favor of the new class. Again, this was the avg. The first round draft pick guys that become the superstars obviously have avg careers closer to 10 years.
-The money management is nill. Most of these guys end up bankrupt. The start low or middle class, and then have a huge sum of money thrown at them. They blow it all on stupid stuff. Then 4 years later their knee goes out and they are cut. Now they have no income from sport, and they hadn't saved any.

I almost think pool is an easier path. It can be played much longer without injury or risk of being "cut". It's also a much lower level of money, so the player is always on a budget. Less likely to blow money on stupid stuff.

Although now that I wrote that, many GOOD players I've seen go straight to the poker machine and dump their pool score right into it.

 

[jasonlaus]

In college in 2002 I needed to take a couple of electives to graduate. One I took was called "Sociology of Sports". One of the main themes of the class was spending one's entire youth to become a sports star was about the same longshot as winning the lotto. The sports were the major USA ones.

There were many aspects to it:
-The probability of getting onto a pro team, even if your skills are tremendous, is almost zero.
-If you do get on a pro team, the avg salary is 400k USD per year. This data might have been a few years old at the time (2002), but keep in mind, the millions and millions we see as salaries are the first round draft picks. The other guys are way lower.
-The average career length is 4 years. Due to injury. Due to being dropped in favor of the new class. Again, this was the avg. The first round draft pick guys that become the superstars obviously have avg careers closer to 10 years.
-The money management is nill. Most of these guys end up bankrupt. The start low or middle class, and then have a huge sum of money thrown at them. They blow it all on stupid stuff. Then 4 years later their knee goes out and they are cut. Now they have no income from sport, and they hadn't saved any.

I almost think pool is an easier path. It can be played much longer without injury or risk of being "cut". It's also a much lower level of money, so the player is always on a budget. Less likely to blow money on stupid stuff.

Although now that I wrote that, many GOOD players I've seen go straight to the poker machine and dump their pool score right into it.

Or buy the trash of "rich" watches - Rolex

Speaking of being in Arizona. If ya know ya know. Don't blame em

 

[InsertCleverNameHere]

When I saw the top 200 list I put all of those players as world class. To me if you are top 200 worldwide in almost anything you should be considered world class. The problem is that in pool world class does not necessarily mean you can make a good living. That is a different way of saying what I did in my earlier post. You have to be a top player among players I consider world class to really do well. Some might argue whether top 200 is really world class. But there are 450 NBA players plus some who bounce around and play 10 day contracts and such. And pro leagues internationally with some great players. Close to 1700 NFL players, many of whom don’t last and don’t make fortunes admittedly. Around 750 NHL players plus the overseas leagues.

Doesn’t bode well for making a living in pool. How many businesses out there have more than 200 employees making livings with the top guys making more than top pool players by a lot? In many different fields. And then factor in all the smaller businesses that provide good careers and livings for so many. Pool has never been a great opportunity for very many people. Some can do well at it, sure. But a job creating machine it is not.

When I was discussing this post with my wife(as she started snoring) I got into the NFL MLB NBA NHL player numbers, base salaries etc. I almost went there here but I'm glad someone else did.

 

[Zerksies]

All i have to say is Danny Basavitch, Promising player when he was young. He got stuck with some dude named Mike who was a real scumbag. I am sure he didn't help. The last few years of his life was very pitiful. His father use to run his facebook account and i remeber was his father pleding to get this kid a Job at a gas station. It got so bad and depressing i stopped following.

Most of these kids don't have the talent to be a top player and pool don't play enough.

 

[Badpenguin]

Gambling is different than becoming a professional pool player. A professional pool player can hustle and make more money doing other things related to pool, lessons, paid appearances, merchandising, sponsorships, etc... Of course, all of these things require you to have personality and looks that will sell.

As far as gambling, most people aren't going to buy anything from drug addled cigarette smoking tatted up hustlers living out of a car who will rip off anyone any chance they get so they can survive. You'd have a better chance starting a rock band and making it big.

The reality is, at least in the US, that neither a gambling or professional pool career is going to take care of you when you or your loved ones get sick or are beyond your prime and forced to retire. Maybe 10 out of a million can pull that off somehow. Otherwise, you are going to be living off of someone else's graces when you can no longer perform at the highest level, probably at about 40 or 45 years old. Two good examples of players who have realized this are Alex Pagulayan and Fedor Gorst, both are investing as much time and effort into branding and merchandising as they are their pool game. Of course, both of these guys have access to healthcare that the US players don't, so they don't have to worry about that as much.

 

[billb]

Gambling is different than becoming a professional pool player. A professional pool player can hustle and make more money doing other things related to pool, lessons, paid appearances, merchandising, sponsorships, etc... Of course, all of these things require you to have personality and looks that will sell.

As far as gambling, most people aren't going to buy anything from drug addled cigarette smoking tatted up hustlers living out of a car who will rip off anyone any chance they get so they can survive. You'd have a better chance starting a rock band and making it big.

The reality is, at least in the US, that neither a gambling or professional pool career is going to take care of you when you or your loved ones get sick or are beyond your prime and forced to retire. Maybe 10 out of a million can pull that off somehow. Otherwise, you are going to be living off of someone else's graces when you can no longer perform at the highest level, probably at about 40 or 45 years old. Two good examples of players who have realized this are Alex Pagulayan and Fedor Gorst, both are investing as much time and effort into branding and merchandising as they are their pool game. Of course, both of these guys have access to healthcare that the US players don't, so they don't have to worry about that as much.

Case in point....Archer. Best in the world for a long time. Sponsors. Exhibitions. World Championships. Prize money. "Fame and Fortune" as it relates to the pool world. But in the end, the net result is sad.

Gorst seems to have it figured out.

 

[Badpenguin]

Case in point....Archer. Best in the world for a long time. Sponsors. Exhibitions. World Championships. Prize money. "Fame and Fortune" as it relates to the pool world. But in the end, the net result is sad.

Gorst seems to have it figured out.

As a general rule in whatever life someone chooses, addiction will destroy it. Doesn't matter if it is drugs, alcohol, gambling, whatever it is.

 

[iusedtoberich]

All i have to say is Danny Basavitch, Promising player when he was young. He got stuck with some dude named Mike who was a real scumbag. I am sure he didn't help. The last few years of his life was very pitiful. His father use to run his facebook account and i remeber was his father pleding to get this kid a Job at a gas station. It got so bad and depressing i stopped following.

Most of these kids don't have the talent to be a top player and pool don't play enough.

Bassavich WAS a top player though (national level, not world level). He'd probably be 780 speed in today's context. Drugs are what did him in.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I go by the opinion of do whatever the hell you want. I don't care if it's a 15 year old or a 50 year old. It's a free country. If a kid wants to dedicate himself to xyz, so be it.

Dedicating yourself to any sport, even the major ones that pay millions, for 99.999% of people will result in less money than working full time at McDonalds. That's the reality of pro-sports.

But so what? Life isn't just about money. If someone loves poking the balls with a stick, let them.

 

[BlueRaider]

Pool players with kids who show interest in the game should teach them the basics, ensure their fundamentals are solid, and help them get up to about Fargo 550 or so, and then turn them loose to dominate the frat house/dive bar tables in college (and maybe join a league when they're in their 20s or 30s).

No sense going any further than that. They can still make "being good at pool" part of their life, just on a lower scale, all while putting in maybe 20% of the time, effort, and expenses it would require to get to 700.

 

[DieselPete]

I think the questions that have to be answered for the very promising young player are, "If not 'pro' then what? To what end do I practice this craft, to have a good life?"

I would point to Anthony Meglino to answer that. Ranked #104 in Fargo but also has a full-time career that I believe pays well, and I'm sure has health insurance and retirement benefits. Then he puts in his practice time, plays in Florida-area tournaments and does really well. Plays at the level of Derby City and other bigger events and also does quite well. Makes a fair (perhaps even considerable) bit of money in action matches. Runs a weekly tournament on many Wednesday nights at his local pool hall to contribute back to the pool community. People really like and respect him.

There is a life to be had at very high levels of pool while still having an education and a career.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Pool players with kids who show interest in the game should teach them the basics, ensure their fundamentals are solid, and help them get up to about Fargo 550 or so, and then turn them loose to dominate the frat house/dive bar tables in college (and maybe join a league when they're in their 20s or 30s).

No sense going any further than that. They can still make "being good at pool" part of their life, just on a lower scale, all while putting in maybe 20% of the time, effort, and expenses it would require to get to 700.

Someone who will become a 700 level willl be a 550 for about 2 months. You either have the genetics for it or you don't.