How important is the cue ball?

WildWing

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
The-Professor said:
Thats very interesting!
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Yes, it is. Having been around the game for decades, I've heard all the urban legends about cue balls. The measle ball is bigger heavier, rougher, smoother, etc. The red circle is smaller, lighter, smoother, has a different finish, etc. Also, the older blue dot and red dot were lighter, smaller, etc.

There are two tools you need to set most theories aside. A micrometer, and a scale. Usually you will find there aren't differences major enough to have an effect on play, and more than likely, your mind has been trying to convince you of differences because you're heard them. It's human nature.

All the best,
WW
 
ideologist

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
WildWing said:
Yes, it is. Having been around the game for decades, I've heard all the urban legends about cue balls. The measle ball is bigger heavier, rougher, smoother, etc. The red circle is smaller, lighter, smoother, has a different finish, etc. Also, the older blue dot and red dot were lighter, smaller, etc.

There are two tools you need to set most theories aside. A micrometer, and a scale. Usually you will find there aren't differences major enough to have an effect on play, and more than likely, your mind has been trying to convince you of differences because you're heard them. It's human nature.

All the best,
WW
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The Red Circles and Measles we opened brand new in a local pro shop showed a difference of 3-4 grams each time, we tested with 3 of each kind of ball. This was also several years ago, and it wouldn't surprise me if the build out has changed.
 
WildWing

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
ideologist said:
The Red Circles and Measles we opened brand new in a local pro shop showed a difference of 3-4 grams each time, we tested with 3 of each kind of ball. This was also several years ago, and it wouldn't surprise me if the build out has changed.
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I suspect the buildout has changed, as you suggest. The diameters and weights are the same now, until someone wants to prove me wrong, with evidence, not thought.

I will agree that the resin compounds are different. The red circle cue ball has a slightly more yellowish, and slightly more translucent appearance than the Measle, Blue Circle, Aramith Super Pro, as well as the Aramith Blue Dot, and Red Dot.

Most differences in performance, however, are in the minds of players. There is one exception though. If whatever cue ball is very worn, where it is several thousands of an inch smaller than new, it will draw more easily, and have a hard time following through a stack of balls. The reasons are obvious. A worn cue ball will be smaller, and dig into the cloth upon impact with a bigger object ball very quickly and easily. Also, due to its lower mass, it will have a hard time following through other balls.

Good discussion, but a great deal of this thread is power of suggestion, rather than fact.

Micrometers and scales are your best friends.

All the best,
WW
 
jay helfert

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
WildWing said:
For what it's worth,

Weights of Red Circle and Measle balls. Both are genuine, Red Circle from Neilson's Billiards Ebay, Measle ball from an Aramith set. Both practically new, very little play on either.

Both weigh 168 grams. Perhaps others get different results. But, perhaps some should rethink assumptions.

All the best,
WW
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Just because they weigh the same does not mean they play the same! :rolleyes:
 
Ken_4fun

Ken_4fun

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
PoolBum said:
I play 9-ball and 10-ball exclusively, and I still prefer the red circle cueball to any other cueball.
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I also play one pocket and red circle is my favorite. It seems a tad lighter than the object balls.

Ken
 
WildWing

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
Ken_4fun said:
I also play one pocket and red circle is my favorite. It seems a tad lighter than the object balls.

Ken
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The cue ball isn't lighter than the object balls unless it's very worn. Use a scale to show it, with a new red circle.

Not a sermon, but empirical evidence beats opinion any day.

All the best,
WW
 
K

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
WildWing said:
The cue ball isn't lighter than the object balls unless it's very worn. Use a scale to show it, with a new red circle.

Not a sermon, but empirical evidence beats opinion any day.

All the best,
WW
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Empirical evidence suggests the red circle plays considerably different than the measle ball. How do you account for that difference? Thing is, how you account for the difference really is a lot less important than *the difference*.

KMRUNOUT
 
WildWing

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
KMRUNOUT said:
Empirical evidence suggests the red circle plays considerably different than the measle ball. How do you account for that difference? Thing is, how you account for the difference really is a lot less important than *the difference*.

KMRUNOUT
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I think the reason the two cue balls play differently is the resin compounds used for each are different.. And I do agree that the red circle draws more easily that the measle ball. There was a thread maybe a couple years ago, mostly about the red circle ball, I believe, where I think it was Rain Man who showed a one-page spec sheet from Aramith that listed the different resin compounds for each ball. It may be findable with a search. If I recall correctly, the measle and the super Aramith pro balls were the same resin, and the red circle was different. For that matter, the less expensive Blue Dot and Red Dot balls were different from either. I forget where the Centennial Blue Circle fell in the mix. So I think the answer you're looking for is the resin, rather than differences in weight. Having said that, I think you can find new examples with slight weight variances, especially if you have a scale that goes to fractions of grams. However I think we can assume those are manufacturing tolerances, and not something that would substantially alter the playing characteristics compared to either ball.

This thread does remind me though, of what I've wondered about the measle ball dots. How deep do they go, and are they the same resin compound as the rest of the ball with just a different coloring agent, or are they a different resin? I have heard people here say they notice flat spots at those dots after considerable wear, which would tend to indicate a different resin. I can't vouch for that though, as I've never noticed that, even with pretty well worn measle balls. Hope that helps.

All the best,
WW
 
WildWing

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
I knew I could find it if I tried hard enough.

Bottom line, for currently available balls:

Measle, Blue Circle, and Red Logo Aramith ball is Aramith's Super Aramith Pro resin.

Red Circle is Aramith Premium resin.

Blue Dot and Red Dot balls are Aramith Premier resin.

All the best,
WW
 

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Ken_4fun

Ken_4fun

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
WildWing said:
The cue ball isn't lighter than the object balls unless it's very worn. Use a scale to show it, with a new red circle.

Not a sermon, but empirical evidence beats opinion any day.

All the best,
WW
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No offense taken my brother.

It just seems to be lighter than the object balls. Cant argue with the facts and I can admit I was wrong.

Thanks for the clarification.

Ken
 
HawaiianEye

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The cue ball is the most important ball on the table.

If you aren't comfortable with the cue ball your game will suffer.

To me, every measles cue ball that I have played with played "slick". Maybe because it wasn't part of the set and maybe because it was newer and had a "slicker" surface. It also seems to play a little "weird", compared to other cue balls.

Whatever the reason, I have never liked it.

And lastly, I don't like seeing the spots going around and around. I know how much action I am putting on the ball without it.
 
Straightpool_99

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
HawaiianEye said:
The cue ball is the most important ball on the table.
You are absolutely right about that.
If you aren't comfortable with the cue ball your game will suffer.

To me, every measles cue ball that I have played with played "slick". Maybe because it wasn't part of the set and maybe because it was newer and had a "slicker" surface. It also seems to play a little "weird", compared to other cue balls.
That may be true. I remember when it came out and we added it to the worn Centennials of our club. It played super slick and heavy, because it was, relative to those balls!
Whatever the reason, I have never liked it.
Not really a fan either, but I've played with it for so long now that other balls are actually feeling strange in comparison, and it's not going away any time soon, so it's best to just adapt to it, IMO.
And lastly, I don't like seeing the spots going around and around. I know how much action I am putting on the ball without it.
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It makes it quite hard to keep your tip position a secret, though it doesn't really show TOI as well as other spins:cool:. There is another funny effect with this ball, and that's that it makes the all white cueballs seem smaller when you compare them! It's the weirdest things and has to be some kind of optical illusion. An old story, regarding ball weight: When I was just starting to play pool, two of the countrys top players were playing a money game. Earlier that day, the ball polisher had broken down, and at the time those two were ready, the only polished set had mismatched balls. Mostly Centennials with some random ones thrown in. They looked pretty similar, but they weren't as they were mutch lighter. Anyhow, I noticed that twice when one of the player got straight in on a mismatched (lighter) ball and tried to draw back, he came up short...The other player adjusted much better, but the ball weights clearly have an impact. On the lighter set, the cueball acted as a heavier ball, because it was, relatively speaking. Obviously, having a 168/169 gram cueball is better, but ONLY IF your object balls are the same. If they are lighter, you are probably better off with the cueball that came with the set, IMO.
 
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dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Bavafongoul said:
So if you think that using a smaller, or larger, cue ball that could be lighter, or heavier, than the object balls you are play with in a local tournament doesn't affect your overall play, you are sadly mistaken. If you are skeptical about what I wrote, check with Dr. Dave & by the way, also check the Rules too.
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For those interested, I have a video, articles, and other info related to CB weight effects here:

CB weight, size, and wear effects resource page

Enjoy,
Dave
 
HawaiianEye

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Straightpool_99 said:


It makes it quite hard to keep your tip position a secret, though it doesn't really show TOI as well as other spins:cool:.
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Are you trying to tell us you are pulling some "sneaky secret stuff" on us? :)

Why would you care if they know your "secret" tip position? I'll show them mine and tell them where I'm hitting the ball on every shot. If they can figure it out and duplicate it, more power to them.

You trying to be like Houdini and keep all the "secrets" hidden?
 
J

JohnnyOzone

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ken_4fun said:
No offense taken my brother.

It just seems to be lighter than the object balls. Cant argue with the facts and I can admit I was wrong.

Thanks for the clarification.

Ken
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the thing is, they get more wear so after years of play, they probably are lighter. plus there are all kinds of counterfeits out there that are way off.
i like the red circle balls mainly because they dont mark up. i also like the finish on them
 
WildWing

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
JohnnyOzone said:
the thing is, they get more wear so after years of play, they probably are lighter. plus there are all kinds of counterfeits out there that are way off.
i like the red circle balls mainly because they dont mark up. i also like the finish on them
Click to expand...

Correct. There are quite a few out there who think the Red Circle is lighter. It's basically because it gets played a lot and gets worn. It's probably the most popular replacement cue ball, so it makes sense.

It starts out the same weight as any cue ball. It does have a different resin build, as I've gone over. Again, calipers and scales are your best friend.

All the best,
WW
 
S

Skippy27

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cornerman said:
This is exactly how and why Diamond tables came into existence. The professional game should have a standard, and Greg Sullivan made it hjappen.


Yeah, because Donny Mills apparently isn't a high level player, since he's the one demanding a standard.

This type of ridiculous post is why professionals don't come on this forum, and why posters like you are just annoying.
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I couldn't care less what you think. This cry baby bullshit is the reason why people think pool players are a bunch of schmucks. There are standards in tolerance for every aspect of the game. Now whining and crying about wanting this particular cue ball or that particular cue ball is just nonsense. Balls play different and every table you play on plays different. They all meet the required tolerance and that is all we should need to concern ourself with.

You don't like my post? Then use that ignore feature and bite me.
 
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