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Patrick Johnson
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05-18-2020, 10:11 AM

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Originally Posted by zcrash View Post
Thanks, PJ, I understand what you're saying. As I mentioned above, I do shoot into the rail with inside spin for balls that are frozen to it
You don't need to shoot into the rail with inside spin for these shots. Aim them exactly as if the rail isn't there, and use whatever spin (or none) is needed for shape.

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For balls just off the rail, there are cases where you can't get the cue ball to the proper contact point (due to cushion interference) needed for a cut that accounts for the throw
I don't believe this is true. You can hit the overcut spot with the OB on the rail (see above), so an OB just off the rail is even easier.

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Bob Jewett
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05-18-2020, 10:13 AM

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Originally Posted by zcrash View Post
Thanks, PJ, I understand what you're saying. As I mentioned above, I do shoot into the rail with inside spin for balls that are frozen to it, but that is different from TOI, at least to me. For balls just off the rail, there are cases where you can't get the cue ball to the proper contact point (due to cushion interference) needed for a cut that accounts for the throw (which will be there for TOI, as well as anything less than gearing english). This is when I choose to shoot with outside english instead. Definitely depends on the exact position, of course. I got onto this thread, though, because I am generally working TOI into my game, and it's really helping me!

I appreciate the responses from both you and CJ.
Here is a shot that might change the way you think about frozen ball shots....

Freeze two balls to the short rail about in the middle and a chalk's-width apart. You are going to play the combination in a strange way. Put the cue ball out from the cushion about 45 degrees from the first ball. Shoot straight at that first ball hard. Hard. Hard. Do not cut that first ball at all.


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05-18-2020, 12:27 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
You don't need to shoot into the rail with inside spin for these shots. Aim them exactly as if the rail isn't there, and use whatever spin (or none) is needed for shape.
Counter-intuitive to me, but I'll work at it and see if my Self 2 (inner player) will come around to getting it. Thanks.
  
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05-18-2020, 12:31 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Freeze two balls to the short rail about in the middle and a chalk's-width apart. You are going to play the combination in a strange way. Put the cue ball out from the cushion about 45 degrees from the first ball. Shoot straight at that first ball hard. Hard. Hard. Do not cut that first ball at all.
Wow, works every time, but I swear I don't have a clue why. Bob, what's happening here?
  
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05-18-2020, 12:57 PM

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Wow, works every time, but I swear I don't have a clue why. Bob, what's happening here?
A ball can sink into the cushion up to half an inch, depending on speed and angle. That's why Pat is telling you to ignore the cushion when you play frozen ball shots.


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it's a good tool for the poolbox
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Lightbulb it's a good tool for the poolbox - 05-19-2020, 07:25 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Here is a shot that might change the way you think about frozen ball shots....

Freeze two balls to the short rail about in the middle and a chalk's-width apart. You are going to play the combination in a strange way. Put the cue ball out from the cushion about 45 degrees from the first ball. Shoot straight at that first ball hard. Hard. Hard. Do not cut that first ball at all.
I haven't tried that shot, I'll make a point to asap.

The shot that's come up several times is when the object ball is by the point of the side pocket, but won't go, and you force the OB through the point of the cushion...I'm sure you know the shot, but for anyone else that hasn't it's a good tool for the poolbox.

Hope all is well with you and yours, BoB, play well.


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05-19-2020, 10:27 PM

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Originally Posted by CJ Wiley View Post
...
The shot that's come up several times is when the object ball is by the point of the side pocket, but won't go, and you force the OB through the point of the cushion... ... .
I knew the shot for the side pocket, but the first person I saw do it on a corner pocket was Lou Butera in an exhibition.

The cushions are not as solid as they seem.


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I'm not sure what's keeping so many players from figuring this information out?
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Question I'm not sure what's keeping so many players from figuring this information out? - 05-25-2020, 03:27 PM

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Originally Posted by jrctherake View Post
Regardless of what the system is called, it's been around for a LOOONNNGGGG time.

Many, many players use a bit of inside (toi) in certain conditions. Then again, those same players normally use a touch of outside in certain conditions.

In short:

If felt is old or worn....toi (touch of insid). if felt is new or slick....too (touch of outside)
Yes, I trained a pro golfer recently and he had no problem with understanding the Touch of Inside, because it's like "drawing" a golf ball. The Touch of Outside is like "fading" a golf ball.

This is the way to maximize the pocket zone margin of error, just like the golfers use draw, or fade to maximize the zone on a golf fairway or zone.

I'm not sure what's keeping so many players from figuring this information out, in golf just about everyone has except the raw beginners.


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05-25-2020, 04:52 PM

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This is the way to maximize the pocket zone margin of error
So whenever I get lined up to hit center pocket with a little inside, not specifically to increase the margin for error but simply to control the CB for shape, do I get an increased margin of error too?

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speed and tempo are important to maximize the TOI benefits.
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Arrow speed and tempo are important to maximize the TOI benefits. - 05-26-2020, 01:27 PM

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So whenever I get lined up to hit center pocket with a little inside, not specifically to increase the margin for error but simply to control the CB for shape, do I get an increased margin of error too?

pj
chgo
No, because. you aren't aligned to the correct part of the pocket initially.

Also, speed and tempo are important to maximize the TOI benefits.


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