touch of inside. CJ has me hooked

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Archer is one player that will walk over and look from the object ball perspective

Hmm...

I have no trouble seeing the pocket's "zones" with any cut angle - I practice it.

pj <- sometimes I even hit 'em
chgo

The perception you have from the shooting position doesn't allow the necessary perspective from the object ball to the pocket unless you're straight in (or very close).

Johnny Archer is one player that will walk over and look from the visual perspective of the object ball and then back to shoot. I was curious why the did that so I ask him when we were in London at the Mosconi Cup, thinking he might be imagining a "contact point" on the object ball.

He informed me he was looking to feed his mind the shot from the object ball perspective. This obviously works well for him, but players like myself and Efren will rarely do this unless there's another ball in the object ball's line.

My aiming point is the inside of the pocket, I can see this point from anywhere because it's not from the object ball perspective, it's from the shooting position perspective. Then, I use a Touch of Inside to cut the ball slightly thinner and calibrate the shot to hit the center.

If I don't contact the center of the pocket I can quickly get the feedback I need to make an adjustment necessary to hit the center on the next shot.

This technique will give the player more confidence because they can focus on making a good stroke with a consistent tempo. I'd say most times players "dog it," is due to being tentative and decelerating, which often leads to under-cutting the object ball.

The Game is the Teacher
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
"We Only Recognize What We're Familiar With"

This is a great comment by CJ--calling out the exceptions is probably more noteworthy than extolling the virtues (which I am really starting to appreciate). One other exception I would add to the list is cutting when the OB is just off the rail (and more than half a diamond from the pocket). TOI (or center-line, for that matter) will take the OB into the rail, and the shot is lost. Gearing, or even TOO (depending on angle and distance), is the best option in this case, at least for me.

Those type shots are easy using a Touch of Inside, just make sure you don't spin the cueball. The cueball will twist slightly, but I don't think of it as spinning, bank pool players use this type stroke to "hold" the banks.

When you say the "shot is lost," I don't know what that means, are you over-cutting it?

When using TOI it's amazing how many shots you can align and shoot like they are straight in, even when there's an angle. Once the shot is a half ball hit, your reference should shift from Center/Center to Center/Edge for your alignment above the shot.

My advice to everyone is to hit every shot with a Touch (just a hair) of inside on every shot for 3 hours, and still try to play shape as usual. Of course the exceptions will be as mentioned before, just try to hit EVERY shot with TOI.

This is what starts to open up your mind to types of shots you may not have known existed. "We Only Recognize What We're Familiar With" so become familiar with the TOI shots asap, you'll be glad you did.
 

zcrash

Diligent Home Player
Gold Member
When you say the "shot is lost," I don't know what that means, are you over-cutting it?

I mean, if I catch the OB a touch thick, then the OB brushes the rail, comes off the rail, and misses if there is any distance at all to the pocket. In other words, when the OB is almost on the rail, I don't have the same latitude for slightly over-cutting or under-cutting as I do for the same cut angle and OB away from the rail. At least, that's my feeling, but perhaps it's just a sighting thing for me...
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...when the OB is almost on the rail, I don't have the same latitude for slightly over-cutting or under-cutting as I do for the same cut angle and OB away from the rail. At least, that's my feeling, but perhaps it's just a sighting thing for me...
You can slightly overcut the OB even when it’s frozen to the rail (because the rail compresses enough to allow it). My advice is to hit the shot as if the rail isn’t there.

pj
chgo
 

zcrash

Diligent Home Player
Gold Member
You can slightly overcut the OB even when it’s frozen to the rail (because the rail compresses enough to allow it). My advice is to hit the shot as if the rail isn’t there.

Thanks, PJ, I understand what you're saying. As I mentioned above, I do shoot into the rail with inside spin for balls that are frozen to it, but that is different from TOI, at least to me. For balls just off the rail, there are cases where you can't get the cue ball to the proper contact point (due to cushion interference) needed for a cut that accounts for the throw (which will be there for TOI, as well as anything less than gearing english). This is when I choose to shoot with outside english instead. Definitely depends on the exact position, of course. I got onto this thread, though, because I am generally working TOI into my game, and it's really helping me!

I appreciate the responses from both you and CJ.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Thanks, PJ, I understand what you're saying. As I mentioned above, I do shoot into the rail with inside spin for balls that are frozen to it
You don't need to shoot into the rail with inside spin for these shots. Aim them exactly as if the rail isn't there, and use whatever spin (or none) is needed for shape.

For balls just off the rail, there are cases where you can't get the cue ball to the proper contact point (due to cushion interference) needed for a cut that accounts for the throw
I don't believe this is true. You can hit the overcut spot with the OB on the rail (see above), so an OB just off the rail is even easier.

pj
chgo
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks, PJ, I understand what you're saying. As I mentioned above, I do shoot into the rail with inside spin for balls that are frozen to it, but that is different from TOI, at least to me. For balls just off the rail, there are cases where you can't get the cue ball to the proper contact point (due to cushion interference) needed for a cut that accounts for the throw (which will be there for TOI, as well as anything less than gearing english). This is when I choose to shoot with outside english instead. Definitely depends on the exact position, of course. I got onto this thread, though, because I am generally working TOI into my game, and it's really helping me!

I appreciate the responses from both you and CJ.
Here is a shot that might change the way you think about frozen ball shots....

Freeze two balls to the short rail about in the middle and a chalk's-width apart. You are going to play the combination in a strange way. Put the cue ball out from the cushion about 45 degrees from the first ball. Shoot straight at that first ball hard. Hard. Hard. Do not cut that first ball at all.
 

zcrash

Diligent Home Player
Gold Member
You don't need to shoot into the rail with inside spin for these shots. Aim them exactly as if the rail isn't there, and use whatever spin (or none) is needed for shape.

Counter-intuitive to me, but I'll work at it and see if my Self 2 (inner player) will come around to getting it. Thanks.
 

zcrash

Diligent Home Player
Gold Member
Freeze two balls to the short rail about in the middle and a chalk's-width apart. You are going to play the combination in a strange way. Put the cue ball out from the cushion about 45 degrees from the first ball. Shoot straight at that first ball hard. Hard. Hard. Do not cut that first ball at all.

Wow, works every time, but I swear I don't have a clue why. Bob, what's happening here?
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Wow, works every time, but I swear I don't have a clue why. Bob, what's happening here?
A ball can sink into the cushion up to half an inch, depending on speed and angle. That's why Pat is telling you to ignore the cushion when you play frozen ball shots.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
it's a good tool for the poolbox

Here is a shot that might change the way you think about frozen ball shots....

Freeze two balls to the short rail about in the middle and a chalk's-width apart. You are going to play the combination in a strange way. Put the cue ball out from the cushion about 45 degrees from the first ball. Shoot straight at that first ball hard. Hard. Hard. Do not cut that first ball at all.

I haven't tried that shot, I'll make a point to asap.

The shot that's come up several times is when the object ball is by the point of the side pocket, but won't go, and you force the OB through the point of the cushion...I'm sure you know the shot, but for anyone else that hasn't it's a good tool for the poolbox.

Hope all is well with you and yours, BoB, play well.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
...
The shot that's come up several times is when the object ball is by the point of the side pocket, but won't go, and you force the OB through the point of the cushion... ... .
I knew the shot for the side pocket, but the first person I saw do it on a corner pocket was Lou Butera in an exhibition.

The cushions are not as solid as they seem.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'm not sure what's keeping so many players from figuring this information out?

Regardless of what the system is called, it's been around for a LOOONNNGGGG time.

Many, many players use a bit of inside (toi) in certain conditions. Then again, those same players normally use a touch of outside in certain conditions.

In short:

If felt is old or worn....toi (touch of insid). if felt is new or slick....too (touch of outside)

Yes, I trained a pro golfer recently and he had no problem with understanding the Touch of Inside, because it's like "drawing" a golf ball. The Touch of Outside is like "fading" a golf ball.

This is the way to maximize the pocket zone margin of error, just like the golfers use draw, or fade to maximize the zone on a golf fairway or zone.

I'm not sure what's keeping so many players from figuring this information out, in golf just about everyone has except the raw beginners.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
This is the way to maximize the pocket zone margin of error
So whenever I get lined up to hit center pocket with a little inside, not specifically to increase the margin for error but simply to control the CB for shape, do I get an increased margin of error too?

pj
chgo
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
speed and tempo are important to maximize the TOI benefits.

So whenever I get lined up to hit center pocket with a little inside, not specifically to increase the margin for error but simply to control the CB for shape, do I get an increased margin of error too?

pj
chgo

No, because. you aren't aligned to the correct part of the pocket initially.

Also, speed and tempo are important to maximize the TOI benefits.
 
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