Using english to much

strmanglr scott

All about Focus
Silver Member
I believe you. It's just that the specific experiment/shot was not meant to illustrate what is possible or not. It is in fact entirely possible to find an angle, such that you are almost 100% to get from one of those to the other, without sidespin, and without scratching.

I wanted to illustrate that even though it may be possible to run two, three, nine or 14 balls without sidespin, that doesn't tell you that you SHOULD do it that way. Everyone makes errors. The trick is to find routes that minimize the impact of those errors.

I couldn't agree more.

English is a necessary part of the game. I wasn't trying to say otherwise.

I practice a very basic drill that tests understanding of english, use of the rail and speed.

Put the OB in front of the pocket, pick a random spot on the table for a leave, w bih make the OB and get the leave.

W the ball in front of the pocket and BIH you should be able to get the CB anywhere on the table pretty much, English used if necessary. Seems simple, yet it's amazing how many league games I see where people screw this up.

If it is simple for you, make the drill harder and move the OB around and maybe restrict the CB. Knowing which leaves can't be had by certain shots is great knowledge too.
 

RiverCity

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To the OP, talking tip placement, which of these more accurately depicts how much side you normally employ? Also, rate the different ones as percentages of how often you use a similar position. Example, I use A 25% of the time, B 50% etc.

48628571637_d09036ae6b_b.jpg
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
To the OP, talking tip placement, which of these more accurately depicts how much side you normally employ? Also, rate the different ones as percentages of how often you use a similar position. Example, I use A 25% of the time, B 50% etc.

48628571637_d09036ae6b_b.jpg

I like that. 80% of my shots are A and B, but usually lower or higher. If I am out in C territory I am usually trying to back the ball up off a rail or getting a sharper angle on two rail position or using running english to control the speed. D I avoid if I can.

I've really been focusing on planning the rack lately, which requires very precise cue ball control. For me to stay in line, I need a small amount of something on most shots. I am so used to using some degree of side that I don't think it hurts my accuracy at all.

Pros that use a lot of side include, Shane, Parica, Efren, Bustamante. Although some stay closer to center than the ones mentioned, they all seem to use it as needed.
 
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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Agree with Tate

I agree with Tate, predominantly A or B when I use side at all. My guess, if I kept up with shots with no side, A, or B, that would be about ninety percent of my shots, except for One Pocket.

When people are talking about spinning for shape they are usually talking about C and D. That I rarely do. Pool players typically go through stages. First they are thrilled just to make a ball in the hole. Then it is "how did you do that!?!" They discover draw and now every shot is a draw shot. Then they discover making the ball dance around the table with sidespin. That is fun and often people never really focus on angles which have been lurking in the background the whole time.

Then there are those that really focus on angles after learning draw and spin. There are probably a dozen or more posts on this forum with people talking about discovering angles and discovering how little side spin they need most of the time when they start seeing their patterns as series of angles.

A lot of spin is very easy for pro's if pocketing the ball is easy and there is little traffic on the table. They often use it without a thought that there might be a better shot. Study youtube matches. How often does a person get in shape using a lot of side spin? How often does he miss the ball or tangle in traffic using a lot of side spin? Were there better options? Sometimes the shooter really got in trouble one or two shots before the one they miss.

Everyone will have to confirm for themselves but it seems very common that when a pro ends a run with a miss it is because they had to take on a tough shot and use a lot of side spin to get to the next ball. They could have chosen a different pattern and either made pocketing the ball easier or not require extreme side spin to get to the next ball. Splashy play is fun to watch, boring play is often what gets the cash.

Nine times out of ten the elderly gentleman kicking the youngster's butt is playing a much simpler game than the youngster. The more experienced player can probably play better than the younger spinning balls a lot too but he has learned to minimize risk.

Hu
 

trinacria

in efren we trust
Silver Member
im an immigrant, I had to learn English and it wasn't always easy, so I say forget that old *****. Ill use my English bc I earned it. as far as pool goes, yeah, the old timers got a point. everyone says that you should learn to run racks with natural position, as it also teaches you the right paths. Tor lowry has a really good video on this, the man is a legit pool teacher. also, they come from a time before LD shafts, thin shafts. they make up for a lot of errors and English is easier to use. anyone who uses an LD shaft, myself included, becomes useless with a house cue or a 13mm maple shaft once you go past a couple of feet of distance from the object ball. im not wrong about that bc ive seen the temper tantrums from them.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This debate always seems to come down to "what is the right way to play" or "what do the pros do."

It seems to me that there is no truth out there waiting for you to find it; the proof is in the outcome. If you lose more games or miss more shots playing more English, you're using too much English.

Maybe people really concerned about proof here should just play the ghost 100 times, alternating playing with and without English, and see how many times you win. And it could be that some people are sh!tty English players and should avoid it, and other people are really good at adjusting for deflection and all that, and should keep using it.

:shrugs:
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Using too much english is wrong....

Using too much center ball is wrong also
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been waiting for years for someone to post a video of a pro player where they runout using center ball. I won't hold my breath waiting.
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
English

I agree with those who consider it a balancing act between not enough and too much, and I also agree this can vary slightly from player to player.

Where I think the conversation gets off track is when people talk about the negatives of side spin without then talking about the positives. If we just say "It makes shots tougher and introduces variables that can go wrong" then it leads to the conclusion that minimizing or eliminating side spin should be our goal. But this type of black and white thinking doesn't lend itself to a subtle game like pool.

English can do many positive things. It can send the cue ball on a trajectory that enlarges the positional zone substantially and taking pressure off of speed control. It can add speed to the cue ball off a rail allowing you to stroke at a softer swing speed, one that is easier to control and that enlarges the pocket for the object ball. It can even replace the need for draw which lends itself again to softer swing speeds and more consistency of results (often when I am cutting a ball down the rail I'll use outside instead of draw so I can roll the ball and establish the cue ball path I need).

For example, the end rail to end rail situation presented earlier, I for one would take ball in hand and use a slight angle and high inside English to go two rails towards the 2nd diamond on the long rail up table. This uses a rolling ball versus a stunning ball which eliminates a variable, it steers me away from any pockets, it creates a large positional zone as I'm coming across the line less than I would be with a one rail avenue, and finally that third rail kills the cue ball speed making it all but automatic for the cue ball to dribble down for perfect position. Oh, also it makes the first shot easier to pocket because I'm not relying on a steep cut angle to launch the cueball towards the top corner pocket crossing the line and hoping to hit the long rail and stop on a dime.

I don't know what my mix of A/B/C/D. Clearly on many shots I don't hit a rail in which case I'd very seldom use side spin, but I'd say on half the shots I hit a rail I use some type of spin, even if it's just a twist. And I definitely get all the way out to D when I am playing safe or if the shot is easy to pocket and there is an advantage to it. Shoot, I get out to D on inside three railers sometimes because that's what the situation demands.

Bottom line, pool isn't a game of eliminating risk, it's a game of managing and balancing risks. You shouldn't use a spinning ball without purpose, but if there is a purpose you shouldn't fight the table. The goal of the game isn't to eliminate spin, it's to run tables. Focus on that and let your tools serve you to get there.

EDIT: Of course there may be people that overuse side spin because they are weak in other areas of the game or just like to spin the ball for fun. Reducing side spin might be correct advice for these people. It's just important to realize this is player specific advice if they are out of balance, not universal advice.
 
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BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Another thing rarely mentioned about playing with side is -- it's simply WAY more fun! So much so, that if English didn't exist -- I would never have become mesmerized with the game to begin with. Which brings up a second point, when should players start using English? I say nearly from day one. The game just isn't fun otherwise.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Where I think the conversation gets off track is when people talk about the negatives of side spin without then talking about the positives. ...

Bottom line, pool isn't a game of eliminating risk, it's a game of managing and balancing risks. ...
Great post.

When I introduce new students to side spin, I start by showing them some standard position plays where english makes the shot easy. I then go into my list of five reasons why side spin is hard or dangerous to use: miscue, squirt, swerve, throw, skid. For swerve and throw, I'm careful to show the student how those "problems" can actually be used to advantage. (Even skid can be used to advantage on several proposition shots. :wink:)
 

Bob Jewett

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Another thing rarely mentioned about playing with side is -- it's simply WAY more fun! So much so, that if English didn't exist -- I would never have become mesmerized with the game to begin with. Which brings up a second point, when should players start using English? I say nearly from day one. The game just isn't fun otherwise.
It's too bad there aren't more carom tables in the US. It's really fun to spin a billiard ball, and many standard shots (nearly all?) cannot be made easily without side spin.
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Great post.

When I introduce new students to side spin, I start by showing them some standard position plays where english makes the shot easy. I then go into my list of five reasons why side spin is hard or dangerous to use: miscue, squirt, swerve, throw, skid. For swerve and throw, I'm careful to show the student how those "problems" can actually be used to advantage. (Even skid can be used to advantage on several proposition shots. :wink:)

Hahaha, this reminds me of a prop bet I thought I invented but sounds like you had nailed down way before me. I spot two balls and the bet is I have to shoot the second ball directly into the corner with ball in hand. Of course there's a jump shot where you can land on the second ball, but I have a very high percentage way of making it. I take ball in hand and drop a chalk on the floor, as I'm picking it up and am out of sight I grind a chalk spot on the cue ball. Then I place the cue ball very close (1/8" away) to the target ball and orient the cue ball so the chalk mark will be right at the contact point. I aim the cue ball towards the half ball hit with maximum inside spin and hit softly. It looks like the object ball will go towards the first diamond on the long rail but to everyone's surprise it skids right into the corner. I'm about 80% on this (once in a while it slides to the end rail).

Clearly illegal, but when it comes to prop bets there are no holds barred...
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Using no spin for practice is fine, particularly 14.1 practice, but it is impossible to play at a high level without using left and right spin to get the cue ball where you need it, particularly for rotation games.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hahaha, this reminds me of a prop bet I thought I invented but sounds like you had nailed down way before me. I spot two balls and the bet is I have to shoot the second ball directly into the corner with ball in hand. Of course there's a jump shot where you can land on the second ball, but I have a very high percentage way of making it. I take ball in hand and drop a chalk on the floor, as I'm picking it up and am out of sight I grind a chalk spot on the cue ball. Then I place the cue ball very close (1/8" away) to the target ball and orient the cue ball so the chalk mark will be right at the contact point. I aim the cue ball towards the half ball hit with maximum inside spin and hit softly. It looks like the object ball will go towards the first diamond on the long rail but to everyone's surprise it skids right into the corner. I'm about 80% on this (once in a while it slides to the end rail).

Clearly illegal, but when it comes to prop bets there are no holds barred...
A better technique than dropping the chalk is to get chalk onto your thumb while chalking normally and then use that thumb when spotting the ball. All motions that they expect.

I have made the back ball on the double spot shot once, but it was with a naturally dirty cue ball. I would never cheat by intentionally chalking a ball. :angel2:
 

OneArmBandit

Registered
I think English is often used as a substitute for having good 'pace'.

I don't play as much as I use to and find I will use English more to allow the cue ball to travel in more favorable path, where I would more often use pace when I played more.

It is certainly easier to use more English today with low deflection shafts.

I can't imagine playing banks without English. It is more useful there in creating shots where none existed.
 

rocketceo

<<< rocketceo >>>
Great post.

When I introduce new students to side spin, I start by showing them some standard position plays where english makes the shot easy. I then go into my list of five reasons why side spin is hard or dangerous to use: miscue, squirt, swerve, throw, skid. For swerve and throw, I'm careful to show the student how those "problems" can actually be used to advantage. (Even skid can be used to advantage on several proposition shots. :wink:)

Tin Man and Bob Jewett have it right. Two points. First, while most of us would concede that it is "better" to play all shots on the vertical axis, it unfortunately requires near-perfect speed control to get close to the right angle on every shot. To me that is top professional level, something even good professionals can not do consistently (let alone us mere mortals). Thus, as a practical matter, English becomes necessary to get back into a better line.

One can of course choose not to use English, and leave yourself a little harder or further away on the next shot -- this is the way some people go. As Tin Man said, it's really about balancing the risk. English makes the shot a little harder technically, but if it makes the next shot easier, then it often becomes an acceptable risk, and the "right" shot.

The second point is that English is ABSOLUTELY required on a not insignificant number of shots, and it also makes another class of shots MUCH easier. It is much easier to make a ball frozen to the rail with running English (at most middle and especially obtuse angles). It is much easier to make a frozen object ball with inside English when the cue ball is also frozen. When you're almost straight into the corner pocket and need to go to the opposite short rail it is sometimes the ONLY choice to pick a position path that "spins" the ball down the table. In fact, whenever I have a choice between power and spin I invariably pick spin, and let the ball do the work. I don't break my arm, my mechanics are more reliable, my stroke is more accurate, and the pocket becomes bigger --- IF you understand the adjustments required, how can this be wrong?

English is also required sometimes to use spin-induced throw to make a ball you can't fully see, or to alter the cue ball's path for position by throwing the object ball. English is also necessary for the deliberate swerve shots that come up often. English is also mandatory many times for kick shots. I could go on, but English is in my view a necessary part of the game, and I would think it extremely difficult to be anything more than an intermediate player without it. The trick, as Bob said, is to understand the squirt, swerve and throw adjustments required. English is just another tool in your toolbox, and the more tools you have the better.

I can finally add, personally, that I beat players quite often that are a full notch better than me by using finesse to control whitey to a better position. For example, using drag draw and max right (to increase the spin-speed ratio) in order to break out a cluster that simply can not be reached otherwise. English is a very powerful tool for me, and the rest of us elders that no longer have the eyesight and coordination to consistently make those long shots.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am not sure if I am better or worse off for it, but I rarely shoot a ball without some intentional degree of L or R spin.

On a straight on final ball, yes. Break shot, yes...but that's about it.
 
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