The Philosophical Mosconi Cup Issue

N

Netherton

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For 20 years the Mosconi Cup (my apologies Willie) has been played, and for 20 years I've had the same problem with the tournament. It is a fun tournament that's a sheer delight to watch, after all, how many times do we get to see world class pro's actually dog shots?!
However,
My issue is with the underlying pre tense of the whole thing; The underlying pompousness of the notion that one country, the USA, can take on around 50. Doesn;'t that seem odd to you?

Well it does to me and always has. it's because of the population base you might say. Well, not really - USA 300 million to Europe around 740 Million.

Actually, not only is the tournament ridiculous in it's apparent claim that the USA can do it's best in pool against around 50 nations, but that I might be able to argue quite convincingly that the USA today might not be able to beat GERMANY in pool. Or the UK. Thoughts anyone?
 
HawaiianEye

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Netherton said:
However, My issue is with the underlying pre tense of the whole thing; The underlying pompousness of the notion that one country, the USA, can take on around 50. Doesn;'t that seem odd to you?

Well it does to me and always has. it's because of the population base you might say. Well, not really - USA 300 million to Europe around 740 Million.

Actually, not only is the tournament ridiculous in it's apparent claim that the USA can do it's best in pool against around 50 nations, but that I might be able to argue quite convincingly that the USA today might not be able to beat GERMANY in pool. Or the UK. Thoughts anyone?
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I agree 100%. I say China will become the most dominant pool force in the world, simply based upon population and the "law of averages".

If 1 out of a thousand people can rise to the TOP of the pool world, then just do the math. China has our population dwarfed and as we are dwindling in pool playing in the USA, their pool playing populace is growing by leaps and bounds.
 
Jaden

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
the USA is not one nation.

Netherton said:
For 20 years the Mosconi Cup (my apologies Willie) has been played, and for 20 years I've had the same problem with the tournament. It is a fun tournament that's a sheer delight to watch, after all, how many times do we get to see world class pro's actually dog shots?!
However,
My issue is with the underlying pre tense of the whole thing; The underlying pompousness of the notion that one country, the USA, can take on around 50. Doesn;'t that seem odd to you?

Well it does to me and always has. it's because of the population base you might say. Well, not really - USA 300 million to Europe around 740 Million.

Actually, not only is the tournament ridiculous in it's apparent claim that the USA can do it's best in pool against around 50 nations, but that I might be able to argue quite convincingly that the USA today might not be able to beat GERMANY in pool. Or the UK. Thoughts anyone?
Click to expand...

The US is a federation of nation states. 50 of them to be exact.

US pool has suffered recently and it has put undue pressure on its players. That is the main reasonthat they haven't performed as well in the mc.

Jaden
 
sjm

sjm

Older and Wiser
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What matters is the number of people who play pool, not the population.

I think it highly improbable that Europe has as many pool players as the US. In fact, even though Europe has proven that its top few are superior to America's top few players, the talent pool is much deeper in the US than in Europe. Yes, there are many more good nine ball players here in the US than in Europe.

It is not Europe's population that is driving it's recent Mosconi Cup excellence, during which it has won six of the last seven. It is, instead, the dedication of its top players to the development of their games and the maximization of their playing pedigree and performance.

An English poster on this forum once suggested that there are only about 1,000 people in the UK who play nine ball. And yet, a UK team of Darren Appleton, Karl Boyes, Darryl Peach, Chris Melling and Jayson Shaw would be favored over any team the US could put together. OF course, the US has over five times the population of the UK, so there's more to it than population.

Yes, times have changed and US vs. UK looks the fairer fight than US vs. Europe, but it's not too late to do something about it.
 
Mr. Bond

Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
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On the flip side, the U.S. is very literally made up of people who just stepped off the boat. The U.S. is, was, and always will be a true melting pot of cultures from all over the world. So, in one sense, placing a line in the sand really makes no difference. It's simply the people from over here vs some people from over there, regardless of the individual cultural boundaries that are found both here and there.

That said, IMO its the player selection process that is AFU.
Why shouldnt the U.S. team get to pick its own players?
Or, why dont the players from both sides all have to meet the same criteria to be on the team? I don't like it.
 
B

bdorman

Dead money
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And the Philippines population of 96 million could beat the combined US and Europe.

It's not just population...and it's not just the popularity of pool; it's a combination of the two.
 
jay helfert

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
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bdorman said:
And the Philippines population of 96 million could beat the combined US and Europe.

It's not just population...and it's not just the popularity of pool; it's a combination of the two.
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There you go. I might take Team Philippines over Team Earth, 96 million against six billion! :thumbup:
Give me Dennis, Carlo, Lee Vann, Francisco and Alex and you can pick any five players you want. I'm betting on the filipinos all the way!
 
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H

HelloBaby-

AzB Silver Member
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jay helfert said:
There you go. I might take Team Philippines over Team Earth, 96 million against six billion! :thumbup:
Give me Dennis, Carlo, Lee Vann, Francisco and Alex and you can pick any five players you want. I'm betting on the filipinos all the way!
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How about Ko Pin Yi, Chang Jung Lin, Wu Chia Ching, Yang Chin Shun and Kuo Po Cheng ( or Fu Che Wei ) :wink:
 
sjm

sjm

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jay helfert said:
There you go. I might take Team Philippines over Team Earth, 96 million against six billion! :thumbup:
Give me Dennis, Carlo, Lee Vann, Francisco and Alex and you can pick any five players you want. I'm betting on the filipinos all the way!
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JL Chang, Thorsten Hohmann, Darren Appleton, Shane Van Boening, and Niels Feijen would give your team a serious run for their money, but I'd have to admit that your team would be a slight favorite.
 
M

Mole Eye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know Jay is a big fan of the Filipinos, but nobody is going to walk over the Euros. They're the best on the planet. For that matter, the Taiwanese pretty well spank the Filipinos every chance they get.
 
jay helfert

jay helfert

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Whenever there were team events with teams from all over the world the filipinos won. Yes they did have such events several years back. No doubt China/Taiwan and Europe could produce some great teams, but a funny thing seems to happen every time you get several filipinos together on one team. Everyone else faints and the pinoys all try to top each other with their great play. They feed off each other and laugh and joke about who makes the best shot or the best run-out. They play better and better and the other team wilts. Don't ask me why but it's happened more than once. It's kind of like, they KNOW they're the best players going in and it's their party getting a chance to prove it. :rolleyes:
 
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jay helfert

jay helfert

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KoolKat9Lives said:
The top 5 Euros vs top 5 Filipinos. Who wins?

I'm leaning Euro, but not betting the house.
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No doubt Europe has an abundance of great players right now, but I still like the Pinoys in a team event given the chance. That could all change some day, but that day hasn't come yet! Here's the bottom line my friend. The Pinoys will make shots that no one else will attempt and will run out from spots that look impossible. That will wear you down after a while, I don't care who you are.
 
jay helfert

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
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Mole Eye said:
I know Jay is a big fan of the Filipinos, but nobody is going to walk over the Euros. They're the best on the planet. For that matter, the Taiwanese pretty well spank the Filipinos every chance they get.
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I'm a fan of great pool players! And there are many in the Philippines who you've never seen play YET! If their top hustlers ever met up with our top hustlers, all the money would end up in filipino pesos! :wink:

P.S. One example, there's a guy named Koy Koy who's from the south. He is constantly in action with many of the "name" players, playing even of course. Last I heard he had a winning record (Efren was one of his victims). Another young kid from Cebu (I forget his name) will take on ANYONE who wants to come there and challenge him. Not many takers on his offer, and those that did didn't fare too well (Alcano among them!). There's probably a dozen guys this speed running around the islands looking for action. I've had the experience of beating a few players at Banks or One Pocket and they bring some kid in who just drills me. You don't forget things like that. Don't think these guys can't and won't play One Pocket or Banks if the bet is right. When you never miss a ball or a bank, then you don't need to know all the nuances of the game! Kapeche
 
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CreeDo

CreeDo

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Add "population count" to a long list of lame excuses :rolleyes:

Can you imagine Johnny Archer or Earl saying
"yeah, we just can't beat them because our country is just too small, we can't give
birth to enough pool players to produce the number of world champions they have."?

Not only does the US have no excuse, I doubt they WANT anyone making excuses for them.
They don't want to hear 100 reasons why it's OK for them to get beat.
 
B

backplaying

AzB Silver Member
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jay helfert said:
I'm a fan of great pool players! And there are many in the Philippines who you've never seen play YET! If their top hustlers ever met up with our top hustlers, all the money would end up in filipino pesos! :wink:

P.S. One example, there's a guy named Koy Koy who's from the south. He is constantly in action with many of the "name" players, playing even of course. Last I heard he had a winning record (Efren was one of his victims). Another young kid from Cebu (I forget his name) will take on ANYONE who wants to come there and challenge him. Not many takers on his offer, and those that did didn't fare too well (Alcano among them!). There's probably a dozen guys this speed running around the islands looking for action. I've had the experience of beating a few players at Banks or One Pocket and they bring some kid in who just drills me. You don't forget things like that. Don't think these guys can't and won't play One Pocket or Banks if the bet is right. When you never miss a ball or a bank, then you don't need to know all the nuances of the game! Kapeche
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When you have a culture/country that supports their pool players instead of looking down on them, you will get many more dedicated players. This is the main reason the pinoys have always produced great players.
 
sjm

sjm

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CreeDo said:
Add "population count" to a long list of lame excuses :rolleyes:

Can you imagine Johnny Archer or Earl saying
"yeah, we just can't beat them because our country is just too small, we can't give
birth to enough pool players to produce the number of world champions they have."?

Not only does the US have no excuse, I doubt they WANT anyone making excuses for them.
They don't want to hear 100 reasons why it's OK for them to get beat.
Click to expand...

Go back thirty years and Team New Jersey, consisting of Ray Martin, Steve Mizerak, Allen Hopkins, Pat Fleming and Jose Garcia could have demolished any team of Europeans. There must be more to this than population.
 
jay helfert

jay helfert

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backplaying said:
When you have a culture/country that supports their pool players instead of looking down on them, you will get many more dedicated players. This is the main reason the pinoys have always produced great players.
Click to expand...

True and a lot of them come from poverty where $10,000 is a fortune! They can take care of their families with money like that.
 
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