Mirror Image Bank/Kick Sighting Trick

Patrick Johnson · Dec 6, 2015

[#1 of 2 posts]

You might already know this trick for aiming "equal angle" banks/kicks:

- Stand away from the table in the position where a mirror image of your target pocket would be.

- Sight from there back through the rail to the ball you want to bank/kick.

- Note the position on the rail that you're line of sight passes through - that's the equal angle rail target for your bank/kick.

pj
chgo

View attachment 54759

Patrick Johnson · Dec 6, 2015

[#2 of 2 posts]

But even if you have the room to do it, how do you know exactly where to stand? You can use the pockets and diamonds on your table to visually "triangulate" the exact position of any mirror-image pocket.

Just stand where two triangulation lines cross - in the spot where you're able to see straight along both lines - and you'll be at the mirror-image pocket location.

The pic below shows how to triangulate pocket positions for long rail banks/kicks - the trick works the same way for short rail banks/kicks too, but I'll leave that for you to work out.

pj
chgo

View attachment 54857

elvicash · Dec 6, 2015

Pool balls are not laser beams, rails are not mirrors. I guess my initial point is a ball being banked at any real speed will have a tendency to hook off the rail not roll straight. Not meaning any slight to the original poster.

That being said the geometry of splitting the shot in half the same as a laser off a mirror has been shown by any number of methods and those have been espoused and tried successful by many players.

After looking into the mirror thing, Learn to estimate and trust yourself for planning a bank shot. When you do you can playem a little long, hit them with solid speed so you can play the hook. Also hittem with center or a rolling cue ball more than you use draw you will find results to be more consistent.

Whatever you do play some banks it is good for your game.

Patrick Johnson · Dec 6, 2015

elvicash said:
Pool balls are not laser beams, rails are not mirrors. I guess my initial point is a ball being banked at any real speed will have a tendency to hook off the rail not roll straight. Not meaning any slight to the original poster.

That being said the geometry of splitting the shot in half the same as a laser off a mirror has been shown by any number of methods and those have been espoused and tried successful by many players.

After looking into the mirror thing, Learn to estimate and trust yourself for planning a bank shot. When you do you can playem a little long, hit them with solid speed so you can play the hook. Also hittem with center or a rolling cue ball more than you use draw you will find results to be more consistent.

Whatever you do play some banks it is good for your game.

Yes, of course the equal angle tracks are reference tracks, not precise ball paths. Actual ball paths change, as you say, so the fixed equal angle reference tracks can be a useful "anchor".

pj
chgo

pdcue · Dec 7, 2015

Late breaking news from the Gravesite of Eddie Taylor.

There are reports of the sound of "turning over" being heard.

Dale

3andstop · Dec 7, 2015

What Patrick has referenced is a legitimate way to estimate a bank shot. These things don't come automatically to all players, and anything that helps establish feeling angles better is always helpful to share.

I have always called this the ghost table system. useful actually in some pool rooms as well, where tables are aligned in rows. When these tables are placed five or so feet from each other and in a line down the room, you can actually use the near pocket on the next table to achieve the same type of estimate.

I will however say ... I can't figure out that second graphic at all. The first one, yes, but the second one confused me.

Maybe I'm looking at it all wrong. In that second graphic I attempted to explain what I don't understand and what is the real path of the ball. I tried to draw some lines .. LOL not too good.

Lines are not straight cause I don't know what the hell I'm doing, but there are two colored lines I drew. White, and yellow.

The white line points out that a black dotted line on the left that points to the far table side pocket extends back to the main tables corner pocket. That is not accurate. Shooting at the far imaginary side pocket takes the ball to the side pocket on the shooting table like my white line shows.

Also, the yellow line I attempted to draw shows the blue line aiming at the far corner on the imaginary pocket and then somehow returns to the side pocket of the shooting table where it should return to the corner pocket on the shooting table.

Anyway, while it's true that balls and cushions act differently than laser beams is true, but these are ways to help see angles.

Patrick Johnson · Dec 7, 2015

3andstop said:
I can't figure out that second graphic at all.

Use the lines in the second pic to figure out where to stand so you can sight shots. Stand where two lines cross, then sight the shot using lines as in the first pic.

pj
chgo

BRussell · Dec 7, 2015

Thanks for the idea and the pictures. I especially like the tip of lining up the diamonds with the pockets to ensure that you're standing in the right place. I know I tend to underestimate how far away the mirrored pocket is when I try to picture it.

But for me, kicks where the ball is out in the middle of nowhere rather than hanging in a pocket are tougher and more common, and I wonder if you could adapt this for those situations.

Perhaps start out at the mirrored pocket using your triangulation method, but then toward the table to mirror the spot where the object ball is. Or: Start at the mirrored pocket but then step to the side so you're at the mirrored spot on the rail where you would be sending the cue ball to make the kick.

Patrick Johnson · Dec 7, 2015

BRussell said:
...kicks where the ball is out in the middle of nowhere rather than hanging in a pocket are tougher and more common, and I wonder if you could adapt this for those situations.

Perhaps start out at the mirrored pocket using your triangulation method, but then toward the table to mirror the spot where the object ball is. Or: Start at the mirrored pocket but then step to the side so you're at the mirrored spot on the rail where you would be sending the cue ball to make the kick.

Yes, the same sighting technique works for kicking at balls in the middle of the table - but figuring out the ball's exact mirror image position is harder. The simplest method for that may be the "measuring" trick where you hold your stick straight out from the rail even with the ball and sight from the spot that's the same distance from the rail.

pj
chgo

mortuarymike-nv · Dec 7, 2015

Mirror image

Have you guys actually used a mirror or mirror's for anything longer then 15 minutes ?

The mirror needs to be placed flush with the rail,

That means the mirror needs to be raised about 1/3 of a inch so the ball will not strike the mirror when the ball strikes the rail..............
anyone not knowing that hasn't ever used a mirror........correctly.

Hitting the cue ball the same speed and the place is extremely important and the mirror will show that.

For those who have a tough time imagining banks an kicks using a mirror will help most players.

The mirror will show aiming points and what English should be used .

I know Dan Ponds, and this system works well .... He also makes a set of mirrors that suction cup to the sides off any table and will hold the mirror's ( 3 ) in the right place where you can do up to 3 rail bank or kick shots .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wZU_oN8bOM

bdorman · Dec 7, 2015

Thanks for the ideas PJ. I've been having pretty good success using Tor Lowry's Zero-X banking system, but I'll try adding this to the mix.

IMHO the goal of any system is that it becomes so ingrained that one begins to sense/feel the shot without using the system. However, I've often found that combining a couple of methods gets me to the sense/feel ability sooner.

Patrick Johnson · Dec 7, 2015

mortuarymike-nv said:
The mirror needs to be placed flush with the rail

Actually, it should be over the "gutter" (the worn path about an inch from the cushion nose), but that's harder to do with an actual physical mirror. I've seen mirrors designed to sit under the rails, but they have the same positioning problem.

pj
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Runner · Dec 7, 2015

I remember Grady talking about the mirror system for kicking... he mentioned the 'mirror' image starts right after the tip of the cushion... he said it's better to use your imagination to envision the 'mirror' ball... vs getting a real mirror, which is impractical for most players.

Mirror image for banking?... not so much. IMO, banking is a 'feel' thing... look at Bugs and Taylor, Ronnie Allen. Table speed, new cloth or old, rails going long or short... plus if you're using inside/outside english... too many variables. First thing I see when some serious One Pocket is played, the players run long straight back banks, cross corners, etc. to see how the table is playing... feel.

"Two tips left, one tip low.... mmmm hmmmmm"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAlRHRJidaM

Patrick Johnson · Dec 7, 2015

Runner said:
Mirror image for banking?... not so much. IMO, banking is a 'feel' thing... look at Bugs and Taylor, Ronnie Allen. Table speed, new cloth or old, rails going long or short... plus if you're using inside/outside english... too many variables. First thing I see when some serious One Pocket is played, the players run long straight back banks, cross corners, etc. to see how the table is playing... feel

Equal-angle guides are just that: guides. It's assumed you'll aim a little long or short as needed. I find knowing the equal-angle guide is a big help in estimating the different adjustments needed from that for different conditions.

pj
chgo

dr_dave · Dec 7, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
[#2 of 2 posts]

But even if you have the room to do it, how do you know exactly where to stand? You can use the pockets and diamonds on your table to visually "triangulate" the exact position of any mirror-image pocket.

Just stand where two triangulation lines cross - in the spot where you're able to see straight along both lines - and you'll be at the mirror-image pocket location.

The pic below shows how to triangulate pocket positions for long rail banks/kicks - the trick works the same way for short rail banks/kicks too, but I'll leave that for you to work out.

pj
chgo

View attachment 54857

PJ,

As always, nice idea and nice illustrations! FYI, I've added quotes of your posts and images to the mirror systems for aiming bank and kick shots resource page.

Again, good work,
Dave

dr_dave · Dec 7, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, the same sighting technique works for kicking at balls in the middle of the table - but figuring out the ball's exact mirror image position is harder. The simplest method for that may be the "measuring" trick where you hold your stick straight out from the rail even with the ball and sight from the spot that's the same distance from the rail.

Bob Jewett and I demonstrate techniques related to this method in the video below. We also discuss how to use different reference lines (rail groove, nose cushion, line of diamonds) to account for speed and distance effects.

NV E.7 - Mirror Kick-Shot Aiming System, from HAPS III

Enjoy,
Dave

ctyhntr · Dec 7, 2015

I started out with angle in/angle out, then added the mirror concept. The mirror concept clicked with me, and was a much faster method (not unlike first learning long integration in calculus). Later I picked up Banking with the Beard and helped framed things I picked up from feel.

Dunnn51 · Dec 7, 2015

ctyhntr said:
I started out with angle in/angle out, then added the mirror concept. The mirror concept clicked with me, and was a much faster method (not unlike first learning long integration in calculus). Later I picked up Banking with the Beard and helped framed things I picked up from feel.

Mirrors ??? aiming ??? (again)

I dunno, maybe it is me, but if you know Mathematics you really don't need to even think about "mirrors."

I played a Math professor who enjoys the game of pool last summer. He gave me the 8-out in a race to 9. ....................... every ball ............... center pocket onna Diamond table, banks too. He missed 2 banks in the match, which were both odd-angle, and he hit the points on the side pocket both times !

I lost 9-4 .

So,................
Knowing what he and I both know about Math and pool; mirrors are for this,.....

oh,............. Angle in/angle out is a great start !

Patrick Johnson · Dec 7, 2015

Dunnn51 said:
...if you know Mathematics you really don't need to even think about "mirrors."

And if you "know mirrors" you don't need math, and if you "know feel" you don't need either. Different folks are, you know... different.

pj
chgo

Dunnn51 · Dec 7, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
And if you "know mirrors" you don't need math, and if you "know feel" you don't need either. Different folks are, you know... different.

pj
chgo

:lol: :lmao: :rotflmao1:

ok PJ . I'll leave it at that. :smile2:

Mirror Image Bank/Kick Sighting Trick

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