10-ball with 9-ball rules-why?

[CJ Wiley]

So you're saying you can call two shots at the same time (two way shot)?

Actually they are the same with each variation when it comes to the following:

So you're saying you can call two shots at the same time (two way shot)?

Example: you have tough shot on the 3 ball with a tough carom on the 5 ball......can you call both shots and shoot again if you make one of them?

Complete and utter nonsense. The rules eliminate some two way shots and some "one way" shots (just as the "old" rules and various 8 and 9 ball rules eliminate some two way shots and some one way shots). The shots that are "eliminated" (which is actually quite a strong word for it) are not necessarily the same with each variation.

Do you understand the meaning of the word "creative"?

 

[jsp]

No, call shot works well for straight pool, in particular for fans who'd otherwise have no idea what the pro player is trying to accomplish. In rotation games, one always knows what ball is being shot at and can usually deduce the purpose of the shot. Call shot has never been used in one pocket or snooker. I think it's less about tradition and more about the personal preference of players. Those who prefer call shot or even the "shootout" version of ten on which many of us grew up can certainly play by those rules.

As for me, I've seen the game played many different ways by pros and I enjoy Texas Express rules best, largely because it has so many multi-purpose shots that can be played.

I do not completely disagree with what you're saying here. I was just a little taken aback that Paul Schofield felt call shot has no place in 8-ball in particular. I've never come across any player who can run three or more balls who thinks slop in 8-ball is a good idea.

 

[Paul Schofield]

My comments on 14.1 are not meant to disparage the game but instead to reflect on it's current status. The fact remains (IMO), there is no better game to learn to play pocket billiards with than straight pool.

 

[sjm]

I do not completely disagree with what you're saying here. I was just a little taken aback that Paul Schofield felt call shot has no place in 8-ball in particular. I've never come across any player who can run three or more balls who thinks slop in 8-ball is a good idea.

Agreed about 8-ball. I've always seen 8-ball as being very similar to straight pool in many ways, with similar pattern building options and techniques.

 

[Poolmanis]

2 more cents

I did post about double bank shot earlier for 1 possible 2-way shot. I really did not want to mention more because they are obvious when you are playing ten/nine-ball..
another "two-Way" is combination 10 where you can make another ball also..
example shooting 1-ball to 10-ball and 1-ball is going near left corner where is 5 ball hanging and 10-ball is going right corner...
so "official" 10-ball rules you have to choose what ball you call.. that another 2-way shot right there.

Also kick shots have most of times 2-way outcomes if you can hit it right side of ball..

If you watched Efren play 10 ball against Earl at Steinways last year .. they had call shot - call safety rules..
Efren started call balls always, even on kicks.
coz he is so good kicker it´s always better to him call shot.
If he miss ball and snooker himself he just kick 1 more time and if he makes ball you know.. he will run out...

 

[Straightpool_99]

I respectfully disagree. There is no good place for called shot / called foul in any of our three short games. (Eight, Nine, or Ten-Ball). All three games are more skilled and more fun to play and watch without it. And that goes for pros, average players, and novices alike.

Agree (although I cannot speak for the pros of course). I just think that simple rules are more elegant, and allow for more creativity. Complex rules detract from games and make them less enjoyable and harder to understand for casual viewers. The whole idea behind the complicated rules is to remove aspects of the game that some do not want. I happen to disagree with the wishes of these people a lot of the time.

No matter how lucky some get (and some people seem to have more "luck" than others) pool is a skill game and the skilled player will win more often than not. The occational lucky shot and resulting upset adds drama and exitement to the game for the spectators. What gets a crowd reaction more than a lucky shot? Only the very extreme skill shots. They are both rare, so lets allow for the maximum audience involvement and make them both a possibility.

 

[CJ Wiley]

really good things in your post, especially about pool being a skill game

Calling pockets in pocket billiards is vital to the integrity of the game.

You said some really good things in your post, especially about pool being a skill game. Another problem you commented on is how rare you see tough shots these days. This is another reason to format the rules differently - in a way that forces the player to make tough, demanding shots every game.

This is something I have been working on for a few years and I've finally got a polished product. As soon as the trade marking is complete I will be promoting this game to the general public here in Texas. If anyone is interested in getting involved at the ground floor of this project let me know by PM, or Email.

Agree (although I cannot speak for the pros of course). I just think that simple rules are more elegant, and allow for more creativity. Complex rules detract from games and make them less enjoyable and harder to understand for casual viewers. The whole idea behind the complicated rules is to remove aspects of the game that some do not want. I happen to disagree with the wishes of these people a lot of the time.

No matter how lucky some get (and some people seem to have more "luck" than others) pool is a skill game and the skilled player will win more often than not. The occational lucky shot and resulting upset adds drama and exitement to the game for the spectators. What gets a crowd reaction more than a lucky shot? Only the very extreme skill shots. They are both rare, so lets allow for the maximum audience involvement and make them both a possibility.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Agree (although I cannot speak for the pros of course). I just think that simple rules are more elegant, and allow for more creativity. Complex rules detract from games and make them less enjoyable and harder to understand for casual viewers. The whole idea behind the complicated rules is to remove aspects of the game that some do not want. I happen to disagree with the wishes of these people a lot of the time.

No matter how lucky some get (and some people seem to have more "luck" than others) pool is a skill game and the skilled player will win more often than not. The occational lucky shot and resulting upset adds drama and exitement to the game for the spectators. What gets a crowd reaction more than a lucky shot? Only the very extreme skill shots. They are both rare, so lets allow for the maximum audience involvement and make them both a possibility.

The innocent and well-intended rule that stops a player from benefitting from slopping in a ball has far reaching unintended consequences. I am not going to recite them all. I will point out the one that comes up most frequently:

One player missis a shot and leaves his opponent behind a ball. His good luck just went up about four notches. Not only does his opponent not have a shot, not only does his opponent also have to kick and hit a ball, he also has to call a ball and call a pocket!! It is no wonder that Eight-Ball angers so many.

This is just one of the many ways that calling balls warps and detracts from the game.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

The innocent and well-intended rule that stops a player from benefitting from slopping in a ball has far reaching unintended consequences. I am not going to recite them all. I will point out the one that comes up most frequently:

One player missis a shot and leaves his opponent behind a ball. His good luck just went up about four notches. Not only does his opponent not have a shot, not only does his opponent also have to kick and hit a ball, he also has to call a ball and call a pocket!! It is no wonder that Eight-Ball angers so many.

This is just one of the many ways that calling balls warps and detracts from the game.

I don't quite get this. Your example has to do with a guy missing a shot and lucking into hooking his opponent. What difference does it make whether the game is slop 9 Ball or call shot 8 Ball? The guy missed and his opponent is faced with kicking. If anything your example seems to make the case for WPA+ call shot 10 Ball - option on any miss. Then the incoming player can give it back.

 

[leto1776]

It never takes long for a hypocrite to "out" himself.

Your original question was answered 20 times by the time anyone offended your sense of propriety.

ONB

You're only angry because the second quote was directed at you and another, and you knew it.


Back on topic, I like call shot (but not call safe) 10-ball, but I'll have to give Texas express 10-ball a chance.

 

[jsp]

The innocent and well-intended rule that stops a player from benefitting from slopping in a ball has far reaching unintended consequences. I am not going to recite them all. I will point out the one that comes up most frequently:

One player missis a shot and leaves his opponent behind a ball. His good luck just went up about four notches. Not only does his opponent not have a shot, not only does his opponent also have to kick and hit a ball, he also has to call a ball and call a pocket!! It is no wonder that Eight-Ball angers so many.

This is just one of the many ways that calling balls warps and detracts from the game.

Huh?

Let me get this straight. The rule that prevents a player from slopping in a ball is bad because it prevents a player from slopping in a ball.

Okay.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I don't quite get this. Your example has to do with a guy missing a shot and lucking into hooking his opponent. What difference does it make whether the game is slop 9 Ball or call shot 8 Ball? The guy missed and his opponent is faced with kicking. If anything your example seems to make the case for WPA+ call shot 10 Ball - option on any miss. Then the incoming player can give it back.

I was talking about Eight-Ball. We can get back to Ten-Ball. Now you get it. You just elevated called shot to a new higher level of misery: Grady's Rules.

You cannot tell the difference? If your only option is to kick at a ball, you do not know that having six pockets to pocket a ball is better than having only one pocket?

 

[poolscholar]

It is interesting how many good players support call shot 8 ball but not call shot 9/10 ball

Perhaps its just habit? Habit and feelings > logic

 

[Paul Schofield]

Huh?

Let me get this straight. The rule that prevents a player from slopping in a ball is bad because it prevents a player from slopping in a ball.

Okay.

You are looking at this upside down. The rule that prevents a player from slopping in a ball exponentially rewards a player who misses and hooks his opponent.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I was talking about Eight-Ball. We can get back to Ten-Ball. Now you get it. You just elevated called shot to a new higher level of misery: Grady's Rules.

You cannot tell the difference? If your only option is to kick at a ball, you do not know that having six pockets to pocket a ball is better than having only one pocket?

Yeah I get it. I also get that you called this the one comes up most frequently. The situation is negligible in my opinion. Most guys when faced with a kick are not going to bang at it warp speed in hopes of slopping in a ball except bangers and apparently you. See, you're not the only one that can be snotty. :grin-square:

 

[Paul Schofield]

Yeah I get it. I also get that you called this the one comes up most frequently. The situation is negligible in my opinion. Most guys when faced with a kick are not going to bang at it warp speed in hopes of slopping in a ball except bangers and apparently you. See, you're not the only one that can be snotty. :grin-square:

Oh come on. I am not picking on you. I am being serious. I will try this again from another angle.

Hooking a player behind a ball is a frequent event. Slopping a ball in a pocket happens far less often than the previosly mentioned. Pick your poison.

As I said, this is only one of the many ways that calling balls effects the game.

 

[jsp]

You are looking at this upside down. The rule that prevents a player from slopping in a ball exponentially rewards a player who misses and hooks his opponent.

How do you figure this?

If a player is hooked, then simply kick at the ball and call the most likely pocket. So how does that make things "exponentially" worse compared to no call shot? It doesn't make things much worse at all unless you play by the philosophy of kicking the ball at warp speed and praying.

 

[Paul Schofield]

How do you figure this?

If a player is hooked, then simply kick at the ball and call the most likely pocket. So how does that make things "exponentially" worse compared to no call shot? It doesn't make things much worse at all unless you play by the philosophy of kicking the ball at warp speed and praying.

"exponentially" I don't know how to say it better than "six pockets is better than one". There are six pockets no matter how hard or soft a player hits the ball.

Enough of this for tonight. I have got to get back to work.......promoting this game!

 

[FranCrimi]

I sensed a debate starting in the 2015 DCC Bigfoot thread, and thought a separate discussion would be good.

One rule: keep it respectful, to each other, and to a great event.

The topic: why play 10-ball with 9-ball rules? Imo, it takes away from the nature of having a game that is separate from 9-ball. It just becomes 9-ball with an extra ball and more difficult break.

You are exactly right and you understand the reason for the call shot 10 ball rules. Sure, I would prefer to play 10 ball with the same rules as 9 ball. I agree with CJ's assessment of the importance of the 2-way shot in rotation games.

But unfortunately, without the new rules for 10 ball, 9 ball would eventually become obsolete, thus eliminating many events for players to play in, particularly on a global scale. It was already starting to happen.

The WPA saw what was coming and reached out to pro players around the world for their input as to what the best way would be to make 10 ball a different game. The result was a global collaboration which included input from top players.

I still prefer 9 ball rules however, I appreciate the role that the new 10 ball rules play. Players have more tournaments available to them and more money to win.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

You are exactly right and you understand the reason for the call shot 10 ball rules. Sure, I would prefer to play 10 ball with the same rules as 9 ball. I agree with CJ's assessment of the importance of the 2-way shot in rotation games.

But unfortunately, without the new rules for 10 ball, 9 ball would eventually become obsolete, thus eliminating many events for players to play in, particularly on a global scale. It was already starting to happen.

The WPA saw what was coming and reached out to pro players around the world for their input as to what the best way would be to make 10 ball a different game. The result was a global collaboration which included input from top players.

I still prefer 9 ball rules however, I appreciate the role that the new 10 ball rules play. Players have more tournaments available to them and more money to win.

This is a great post, thanks Fran. Along this thought line the problem I see is just like TE killed push-out 9 Ball, TE Ten Ball will kill call shot 10 Ball. Then what, we go to call shot 11 Ball to be the different game that creates variety, more tournaments, and more potential money for players? After that we can just do it again with 12 Ball when TE 11 Ball takes over...et cetera and so forth. :wink: