16 Pro Player Invite Only Tour

[iusedtoberich]

That's as good a list as any.

 

[krelldog]

Who would play who in what game. Do you go Jeanette lee and Thorsten in 9 ball. Then do Shane and the Rocket for 10 ball, and those kind of match up's? Or just one game and all 16 in a bracket set up. Do you coordinate it with current tours since some players are already there or do you do it separate.

I think the best format would be a typical double elimination bracket.

Week 1- alphabetical slotting. After week 1 statistically slot the bracket.

One of the biggest challenges would be getting the players to commit to the schedule. Logistics would be a challenge also. Travel is expensive. If the bottom feeders aren't making money there not going to be real motivated to fill the fields.

To really make this thing work I think everyone has got to get some form of compensation, but where would the money come from?

Example- 1st-10k 2nd-5k 3-4th- 3k
5-8th-2k 9-16th-1K
This totals 37K
37K x 16 week tour = 592 K

It sounds like a lot, and I know these numbers are very rough and on the low side...but this concept is very achievable in these times.

 

[krelldog]

Also- One motivator for the bottom feeders would be retaining their exemption.

Example: The top 10-12 for the season retain their exemption. The bottom 4-6 have to qualify in some open event open to anyone. A Q-School for Pool..what a concept

 

[krelldog]

If I'm going to dream...I might as well dream big.

My above rough estimate was 592K

At the completion of the 16 week tour...Each of the 16 based on their good behavior/and total participation would get a check for 10K.

This adds 160K..bring the rough total to roughly 750K

What the bonus would do is create a lot of motivation to stay exempt.

It would also from the Pool Q school side....create a lot of motivation to become exempt.

BTW- The Pool Q school entry would be 2K. If you get 50 guys taking a shot at 4 exemptions...that's an extra 100K to finance this tour. You could also generate additional revenue with streaming and other creative promotions. Hopefully Predator/OB/Tiger/Joss/McDermott/Viking/Jacoby/Lucasi/Pooldawg/Seyberts/Simonis/Aramith/Diamond/AZ Billiards would understand the importance of revitalizing American pool and contribute what they can.

With the right leadership (which is critical) this tour concept is extremely possible.

 

[3andstop]

I don't really think popularizing pool is the goal. Making a few dollars for some players is the goal and what ever positive benefits pool gains from it are just side effects. It can be combined with other activities as well. Have local celebs. come. Often the local weather person or news people are are some of the most well know locals. It has to be a happening event even beyond the pool. It also need a lot of well done advance work before they arrive.

I understand, but the players can't make money until the industry makes money, and the industry can't make money unless there is a large enough consumer base to feed the industry, and I think it all has to start by cultivating the school kids.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea.

 

[NYC cue dude]

This is how its done in china

I understand, but the players can't make money until the industry makes money, and the industry can't make money unless there is a large enough consumer base to feed the industry, and I think it all has to start by cultivating the school kids.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea.

And in most European countries. In china, pool is taught in school. We've already seen the results. They have cultivated many world class players and 1000's of top players. For every great American, there are dozens of good players there. Korea is also becoming a strong force. Pool is often televised there and for being a relatively small country has a large percentage of its population participating. But again, China's numbers dwarf American, European and Korean players, COMBINED.

In Germany, they have school age clubs that players become members to. It's a safe environment, free of the seedy side of pool. There, players are groomed through local competition and practice. Kids are coached by world class teachers. Those that excel, move up through the ranks with the support of the community. Germany has produced some fine players at only a fraction of the percentage of America's population.

In all these countries, kids have access to digital technology, video games and all the other sports. Yet they choose to play pool, as well. The parents support it because they know their kids are engaging in a healthy environment. That can't be said about what's available in the US.

The only way to grow the sport is from the bottom up. Younger kids must get involved or our sport will continue to die.

 

[Johnnyt]

I understand, but the players can't make money until the industry makes money, and the industry can't make money unless there is a large enough consumer base to feed the industry, and I think it all has to start by cultivating the school kids.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea.

I think most of the industry has proven they are not interested in funding pro pool. That's why it's important to start getting sponsorship outside the billiard industry. Johnnny

 

[Dopc]

Allow me to add my thoughts and ideas. Keeping the OPs original thought and adding a twist.

In addition to the 16 player invitational field, why not make each stop a 32 player tournament field. Where do the other 16 players come from you ask. Simple, in the weeks before the visit at that particular location, have a series of qualifier tournaments for the local talent to compete for positions to join the field of pros'. Taking the top 4 from 4 separate qualifying events held in the previous weeks leading up to the main tournament.

In my opinion, everybody wins here. The local talent gets the opportunity to rub shoulders and compete with the pro's. The room owner gets the added revenue generated from not just the one single main event, but also the previous weeks leading to that main event.The qualifier tournaments entry fees build up prize money for the main event making it attractive for the traveling pro's.

This must be streamed for free to entice growing support from all over. It offers people the chance to see talent they otherwise would never have had the chance to discover before. Try to get some trade industry involved in the deal as much as possible and are willing to contribute or advertise with.

Everybody wins here with the exception of the possibility of some pro's getting bruised egos from some of the local undiscovered talent that's in every town. It nearly eliminates the cost of travel for the local talent, as the tournament trail comes to them. In most cases the qualifying players would more than likely be beat out of the competition anyways, unless there is a truly strong local lurking waiting to get discovered.

Or, is this a really, really bad idea and I should go to bed......

Dopc.

Its a good idea.

I have spent years thinking about the same type of thing. Small field events offer so many more options for all involved. It doesnt take long to see how a 16 man structure can grow and be modified into so much more in just a few seasons if it starts to get legs.

Thanks JCIN for taking the time to read and comment on my post, I truly have respect for your thoughts and opinions, both from reading your posts here on AZB and watching the TAR podcasts ( I love the podcasts by the way. I hope the two of you can do them more frequently as the content and events from the scene come to light).

I must admit though, that sudden idea wasn't truly as spur of the moment as I had alluded to. It has been a dream scenario of mine to see come to reality for well over 25 years. Not because I feel I would have a shot at it (it's nice to have dreams & aspirations though), but also I feel it would light a motivational spark for the talented amateurs to want to improve to higher levels of play and get some exposure opportunity. Creating the "Everybody wins" wins scenario, from the local pool room, to the industry as a whole & finally for the entire sport. truth be told, I haven't given the logistics side of it any thought, that's a dream killer now isn't it.......

Dopc.. The eternal dreamer...

 

[frankncali]

Kinda like watching the same 40 NASCAR drivers race every weekend from February to November? Whole lot of people seem to dig that.

People need to get to know players in order to give a shit if they win or lose. Its hard to do that in 64-128 man fields. Once you had a 16 man structure in place you could do any thing with it. This week we play a one pocket event. Next week is ten ball. Whatever. If people will pay attention to whatever you are doing then it means there are options.

The days of big events are coming to end. No one makes any money at them. Players or promoters. And the last year has made some of the people who do them decide the juice just isnt worth the squeeze anymore. That means shit is going to change. I want to see it create the seed of something that can grow. Otherwise its all gonna be $2000 added regional events with a couple of invitationals and the odd week long tournament. No structure. No future. No growth.

I have been working on the 16 man idea for several years. It makes lots of sense. There are the same problems you always have with regard to money, logistics and schedule but with a small field they are much more manageable.. Honestly one of the biggest problems for me deciding how much time and effort I want to invest in it is the question of what happens if it actually got off the ground and it starts to work? According to history the players will then screw things up. I like to think that could be addressed before hand but honestly I don't know if it would be worth all the trouble.

If there is no structure then there is nothing. How do you get a self sustaining structure? Soon as that happens there will be a shot.

IMO of course.

Interesting.. Didnt know if you would be for something like this or not..

I have kicked around lots lots of ideas but something like this ends up in my mind all the time.

You could seed the top 4 guys and actually have some play ins.. Maybe local qualifiers or a series of set qualifiers around the region or nation.

I like the team aspect like BB has and even something like that would work. or work a few times a year.
One of the quickest ways to build fans is to do it regionally. People like rooting for people they know or are from their area.
Kind of like guys following players from college to pro sports.

To get 16 -24 Pro level players interested what do you think the events would have to be worth?
Do you think that it would be best to have players in one location or move each tourney?

 

[StraightPoolIU]

This is one of the better threads regarding ideas for pro pool in recent memory. Lots of good ideas in this thread. Like a lot of you I've been kicking around similar ideas in my head, and I without a doubt think smaller field events are the way to go for most of the reasons mentioned above. However, there's another advantage to small field events that I didn't see mentioned. It would be WAAAAY better from a spectator's perspective. For example, I freakin love going to Derby every year, but to be honest to watch matches it's kind of a clusterf**k. It requires no small amount of effort to figure out where and when you're favorite player is playing, and when you do find out there are so many other tables and people in the way you may not get a good view. The Bigfoot Events are the exception because of the smaller field. (Nearly) All of the players are top notch. There's only 4 tables with seating (although it could be better with more room) so you know where they'll be. The bracket is small and posted so it's easy to figure out and follow and know the match times.

 

[poolguy4u]

I don't mean to be negative...but pool players don't like watching. Pool players want to play.

Pool players like to see friends play if they can't play themselves.

Now you can take 8 or 16 pro players and let them give a handicap to the local favorites or hot shots.

This is about the only way for local players to be interested and pay an admission fee.

If a pool player isn't playing, they want to be gambling. Guess it would have to be run like horse races and be able to bet on a player.:thumbup:

 

[JCIN]

To get 16 -24 Pro level players interested what do you think the events would have to be worth?
Do you think that it would be best to have players in one location or move each tourney?

I keep coming back to a 16 man field playing a 10-12 stop tour with a points fund and pay outs for each event. The first season you would just pick 14 players who would support the tour with a good attitude. Each stop would have a qualifier for two spots. The money from that qualifier goes into the pot for that event.

At the end of the season top ten stay and four players would be cut. There would be a qualifier event/series/whatever to bring up four players for the next season.

Each event would have $1000 entry fee all going into the events prize fund. Ten percent of each events prize fund go to the year end points fund. There would be a code of conduct and tour rules enforced by points deductions/suspensions. To start with the events would be held in pool rooms or in conjunction with large amateur events. The site would pay a fee to hold the event. In return tour players would be available to help promote as well as play a pro-am prior to the event that the site could make money with. The money paid by the site would go into the prize fund/points fund.

Each event would be streamed. The money from this would go to TAR (since this is my plan/organization/pipe dream). This would pay for the running and organization of the events. Rights to the video would also go to TAR. Initially the streams would be PPV. Sponsor money for the tour stream would be split between the tour and TAR.

You could do the whole tour out of one truck. The events would be single elimination long races. Each match would be streamed. You roll into a town on Wednesday to set up. Thursday is the Pro-Am. Play the event Friday, Saturday and Sunday. One event every two or three weeks depending on scheduling around other events.

Each player could have one primary sponsor. That primary sponsor would get placement in the arena and on promotional materials. All this money stays with the individual player. This creates value for the player as there are only 16 available spots. Ideally it gets to the point where sponsors pay the players entry fees for this. Basically a primary sponsor could put a player in for an entire season for $10-$12K. Or the price of three or four custom cues. I think its possible. Players could have two additional sponsors on their shirts as well. Limiting the number of potential spots means they have more value.

Money break down for an event with no sponsorship at all:

$1000 entry x 16: $16,000
$5000 site fee: $5,000
$1,000 from qualifiers ($300 entry x 10 players. $2K goes to player entry and the extra $1000 is added to prize fund)

$22,000 total.
- $2000 for year end prize fund.

You have 16 guys playing for $20,000 with zero sponsors. My thinking is to pay out top 8.

1st: $6000
2nd: $4000
3rd-4th: $2000
5th-8th: $1500

Basically you win one match you make $500.

Ten of these events leaves a $20K prize fund. Pay out top four in points.

1st: $10,000
2nd: $5,000
3rd: $3,000
4th: $2,000

This would be a $200,000 tour with $20K prize fund. $50K comes from site fees. The organization and infrastructure is paid for by the streaming. This is with zero outside sponsorship. I really believe if this was rolled out and proven that it was happening sponsors would jump on board.

The spectator gate is also not included in the money. My gut tells me the right deal is to split it between the tour and site. This would allow the site a way to get some money back in addition to selling food/drinks and the pro am. Sites for the first season would get first right of refusal for all future events in that geographical area.

There are a million more details. But this is what I think could work. If CSI, Diamond and some others got behind it I believe it would be possible. There is one big issue though. No one will get rich at this. Or even make much money in the beginning. It would be a whole lot of work and there is a good chance if you did everything right it would still fail. It is the one thing I have been able to come up with over the years that could create a viable and sustainable pro tour in the US.

There are lots of holes still and this is only a thumbnail sketch. But I do think something is possible.

 

[CJ Wiley]

16 fans in the audience and 400 players instead of 400 fans and 16 spectators.

The more I think of the 16 man pro player invite only tour, the more possibilities I can see coming out of it. When the 16 man tour shows it will work for players and promoters both, many things can grow from it. You can add a few more players a little at a time until you have 32. With 16 players 2 8 player ring games a few times a year. Also you can split the 16 into 4 man teams a few times a year. You can also have 8 doubles teams a few times a year. Lastly you can draw two guys for TAR type match ups when ever the time and the players have a grudge between each other. There are other ways to use the 16 pro players I'm sure. Johnnyt

I believe at Tunica I said there was 16 fans in the audience and 400 players instead of 400 fans and 16 spectators.

Anyway, I'll be really glad if the necessary changes are made and this current structure is refined. Personally I'd only use 8 players, but that would take some explaining. If there's no TV then this is another silly structure that won't do what we really need - to draw in the general public to recognize pocket billiards as a viable entertainment option for them.

 

[JCIN]

I believe at Tunica I said there was 16 fans in the audience and 400 players instead of 400 fans and 16 spectators.

Anyway, I'll be really glad if the necessary changes are made and this current structure is refined. Personally I'd only use 8 players, but that would take some explaining. If there's no TV then this is another silly structure that won't do what we really need - to draw in the general public to recognize pocket billiards as a viable entertainment option for them.

Pool is not a viable entertainment media for the public in this country.

Never has been. Never will be.

The fact that it was on ESPN twenty years ago means nothing. The powers that be at that time had a chance and they screwed up it as bad as possible.

What is possible is something small that can be built on the people who already play the game.

My guess is that will never happen either because history has shown that players much prefer to be lied to and promised pie in the sky money than be told the truth and work to build to something.

 

[Johnnyt]

When you say tour truck, do you mean to do the PPV out of and that means it doesn't matter what the poolroom has for cable? I hope enough of the industry and fans get behind this with a good send off. I know the PPV is needed for this, but the one thing I worry about is can you get enough PPV viewers to buy the feed every 2 or 3 weeks? I would think about having a package deal for the 12 -16 events a year. Johnnyt

 

[JCIN]

When you say tour truck, do you mean to do the PPV out of and that means it doesn't matter what the poolroom has for cable? I hope enough of the industry and fans get behind this with a good send off. I know the PPV is needed for this, but the one thing I worry about is can you get enough PPV viewers to buy the feed every 2 or 3 weeks? I would think about having a package deal for the 12 -16 events a year. Johnnyt

No the site would have to have the the internet connection.

Its all a rough idea.

Do I think it could work if everything went right? Possibly.

The reason I haven't pursued it is that I know exactly what most players would say: "Thats no money"

So I just do what I can with TAR matches and the players keep running on the hamster wheel of independent events with no structure or future.

 

[Johnnyt]

I've been playing around with models of this 16 man pro tour off and on for months...even though I have no skin in it. When I see your rough draft of it and look at the ones I came up with I can now see how it's almost impossible to get everything right. Every time I fix one part of it 2 more problems come up.

The cost of travel for one thing sticks out when you use poolrooms because the U.S is so vast. Doing it in one studio or poolroom has the drawback of the players have to move near it. If most of the players got a sponsor that would pay for travel and maybe entry fees, then it could work either way. If TAR could get enough sponsors to let the cost of PPV drop low enough for the viewer...then I believe that could work too. If the players get the sponsors and you don't over lap with other big tournaments the pros should be more than happy with the purse in your rough draft. If all the above could come together I believe it would work out fine for everyone. But the stars must align. Johnnyt

 

[JCIN]

I've been playing around with models of this 16 man pro tour off and on for months...even though I have no skin in it. When I see your rough draft of it and look at the ones I came up with I can now see how it's almost impossible to get everything right. Every time I fix one part of it 2 more problems come up.

The cost of travel for one thing sticks out when you use poolrooms because the U.S is so vast. Doing it in one studio or poolroom has the drawback of the players have to move near it. If most of the players got a sponsor that would pay for travel and maybe entry fees, then it could work either way. If TAR could get enough sponsors to let the cost of PPV drop low enough for the viewer...then I believe that could work too. If the players get the sponsors and you don't over lap with other big tournaments the pros should be more than happy with the purse in your rough draft. If all the above could come together I believe it would work out fine for everyone. But the stars must align. Johnnyt

Without a bunch of money invested up front it would take a lot of things to fall right. With a couple hundred grand to start with it would be easy to put together. What Bonus Ball or Galveston shot up in the air could of done it easily. Which is why it makes me ill every time I see the next guy step up and just set fire to the money that could actually create something that could last and grow.

But as I have said...you could do everything right and still fail.

The plan is nothing new. It takes things from rodeo, nascar, skateboarding and several other things that started very small and grew into functioning organizations/sports

The fact that it seems a huge hurdle for fourteen players to find $10K to play a 100% entry added tour in the US tells you exactly where the industry as a whole is.

 

[JB Cases]

Allow me to add my thoughts and ideas. Keeping the OPs original thought and adding a twist.

In addition to the 16 player invitational field, why not make each stop a 32 player tournament field. Where do the other 16 players come from you ask. Simple, in the weeks before the visit at that particular location, have a series of qualifier tournaments for the local talent to compete for positions to join the field of pros'. Taking the top 4 from 4 separate qualifying events held in the previous weeks leading up to the main tournament.

In my opinion, everybody wins here. The local talent gets the opportunity to rub shoulders and compete with the pro's. The room owner gets the added revenue generated from not just the one single main event, but also the previous weeks leading to that main event.The qualifier tournaments entry fees build up prize money for the main event making it attractive for the traveling pro's.

This must be streamed for free to entice growing support from all over. It offers people the chance to see talent they otherwise would never have had the chance to discover before. Try to get some trade industry involved in the deal as much as possible and are willing to contribute or advertise with.

Everybody wins here with the exception of the possibility of some pro's getting bruised egos from some of the local undiscovered talent that's in every town. It nearly eliminates the cost of travel for the local talent, as the tournament trail comes to them. In most cases the qualifying players would more than likely be beat out of the competition anyways, unless there is a truly strong local lurking waiting to get discovered.

Or, is this a really, really bad idea and I should go to bed......

Dopc.

I believe the EuroTour operates pretty much as you described.

 

[JCIN]

I believe the EuroTour operates pretty much as you described.

If you tried to do the Euro Tour here players would laugh at you.

Similar to what they would do if pitched my plan.