$200 for a billiard university diploma!!

[Mr. Wilson]

I'll start off for you.

First, you are an anonymous member who has opinions about a well known person and sniping from your anonymous location.

I personally refuse to take anyone who needs a mask of anonymity seriously, including their opinions. They simply don't count at all.

An anonymous internet opinion is less than useless.

I think I hit two rough spots in this thread. The first was when I ended my first post by saying, "It must be a rude awakening when you think you're smarter than everyone else in the pool community and you find out you're wrong."

As I said in a later post. Maybe these instructors are good folks and they just weren't thinking or they were Ill informed or they weren't entirely focused on things when they entered into this project. I should have conceded that possibility on my first post.

The second rough spot was when I had some choice words for the Dr. I told him I heard he was a good guy and I regretted my harsh tone in earlier posts,
although I was not going to apologize (there was no way I was going to apologize for saying that what is going on is very wrong, but I was giving Dave the benefit of the doubt as to his motives)

He then told me because I regretted but would not apologize, I should find a counselor and explore these feelings. That really ticked me off and I momentarily stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn't have those choice words for Dave today. Today, I don't really think he's conscious of how wrong this is.

So; there have been 5900 entries into this thread. I haven't received a single private post. If I deserve criticism, I'll appreciate being told. I'll keep all p.m.'s private, even one's severely critical. I won't say the same if it's a vicious rant. Also, folks who have already posted in this thread; no need to bother. I'm already aware of where you stand.

 

[JB Cases]

I'll start off for you.

First, you are an anonymous member who has opinions about a well known person and sniping from your anonymous location.

I personally refuse to take anyone who needs a mask of anonymity seriously, including their opinions. They simply don't count at all.

An anonymous internet opinion is less than useless.

And yet theses useless words from an anonymous poster have the power to generate so much controversy and strife.

While you think posts by anons don't count others don't think that way including the targets of those anons.

It is super easy for you to suggest such attacks be ignored and dismissed when you are not the target.

 

[sfleinen]

I'll start off for you.

First, you are an anonymous member who has opinions about a well known person and sniping from your anonymous location.

I personally refuse to take anyone who needs a mask of anonymity seriously, including their opinions. They simply don't count at all.

An anonymous internet opinion is less than useless.

Shoot. I was just thinking that I should use the AZB Suggestion Box, but logout first, so that I can feel free to opine away. Now you're telling me that approach would be less than useless.

I always suspected those pine suggestion boxes were useless. Now you confirmed it.



-Sean <-- actually, all kidding aside, agrees heavily :thumbup2:

 

[12squared]

Dr. Dave ("the other one"),

Thanks! I'm glad you are proud of your BU "Doctorate of Pool" diploma.

One of these days, you need to get a score that is more representative of your actual "speed." I am certain you are capable of a "Doctorate of Pool with Honors" if you actually practiced and really tried.

Catch you later,
Dr. Dean Dave (the other "Dr. Dave")

Nah, I'm good. But thanks.

Dr. Dave (without honors, but honorable)

 

[Mr. Wilson]

And yet theses useless words from an anonymous poster have the power to generate so much controversy and strife.

While you think posts by anons don't count others don't think that way including the targets of those anons.

It is super easy for you to suggest such attacks be ignored and dismissed when you are not the target.

That is the prerogative of anyone.
If someone is being a troll, of course they wish to be anon.
If you want to be taken seriously...why would you wish to be anon?

Why should someone like Dave give a moment worth of consideration to an anonymous opinion?....especially an antagonistic one?

 

[AtLarge]

... I personally refuse to take anyone who needs a mask of anonymity seriously, including their opinions. They simply don't count at all.

An anonymous internet opinion is less than useless.

I disagree with your view on this, Mr. Wilson, and will repeat what I have previously said about it:

Anonymous posting can facilitate discussion or exchange of information based on what is said rather than who says it. We all tend to view another person’s words and actions through filters. The filters are the preconceptions and prejudices formed by our prior knowledge of that person or other persons with similar characteristics – age, sex, race, nationality, wealth, income, marital status, family history, occupation, avocations, height, weight, and on and on. But with anonymous posting, one’s words have to be evaluated solely in terms of the quality of the thought and expression.

Over time, of course, an anonymous poster creates a posting history or profile that, in itself, creates preconceptions and prejudices that filter what that person subsequently posts.

Obviously, it can be useful to know who the poster is when trying to evaluate the accuracy, wisdom, or credibility of what he is saying. But for most topics, that’s not essential. Whether the poster is Joe Championplayer, Joe Supercuebuilder, or Joe Shmoe, let’s evaluate what is said rather than who says it.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Riiight.
So if Dr. Dave were to have created an anonymous account and offered his opinions, you'd take them just as seriously as you would if you knew the poster was legit?

In that case, none of us require any reputation at all.....just a veil and some words that you can take or leave as trash or gospel.

I disagree with your view on this, Mr. Wilson, and will repeat what I have previously said about it:

Anonymous posting can facilitate discussion or exchange of information based on what is said rather than who says it. We all tend to view another person’s words and actions through filters. The filters are the preconceptions and prejudices formed by our prior knowledge of that person or other persons with similar characteristics – age, sex, race, nationality, wealth, income, marital status, family history, occupation, avocations, height, weight, and on and on. But with anonymous posting, one’s words have to be evaluated solely in terms of the quality of the thought and expression.

Over time, of course, an anonymous poster creates a posting history or profile that, in itself, creates preconceptions and prejudices that filter what that person subsequently posts.

Obviously, it can be useful to know who the poster is when trying to evaluate the accuracy, wisdom, or credibility of what he is saying. But for most topics, that’s not essential. Whether the poster is Joe Championplayer, Joe Supercuebuilder, or Joe Shmoe, let’s evaluate what is said rather than who says it.

 

[jburkm002]

There was a video feed of a tournament once. Between games you could see this guy practicing. He kept trying this one shot over and over but kept missing. After he made the shot he went on to another shot. Not sure if he knew anyone was watching. Anyways. The commentator said "that's the difference with pro's, they practice that shot until they can't miss".

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Good post.

Elroy, I can only speak my opinion the views of this thread and the lack of PM' to you are not a validation of your stance.

Most of us will post our positions in the open. That is what makes this a discussion board. Out of all the years I have been here and participated in other online forums I have only seen one poster use pm as a posting mechanism. Do you want to guess who? Cause it happened to me too

As far as the views it is like a car wreak. Hard to drive by and not gawk.

Your opinion is wrong, in my opinion.

No one is being deceived. No one believes a Billiard University diploma equates to any other diploma in the world. It signifies achievement along a course of study, regarding pool. It is rather simple.

Yet still you continue to flog this deceased equine. You managed to drag Rick into it, leading to his banishment. Other than him and Tim, who is just playing along to tweak the general forum population, there is no one concerned about this.

Tilt on, Don Quixote.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[AtLarge]

Riiight.
So if Dr. Dave were to have created an anonymous account and offered his opinions, you'd take them just as seriously as you would if you knew the poster was legit?

Perhaps. There are many posters on AzB that I know only by their screen names and the substance of their postings. I assume posters are "legit" unless they prove otherwise, but a poster's long history of good participation certainly enhances my confidence.

In that case, none of us require any reputation at all.....just a veil and some words that you can take or leave as trash or gospel.

That's not a logical upshot of what I said. A poster's "reputation" for many purposes on AzB can be well formed by his posting history or profile.

 

[Neil]

Riiight.
So if Dr. Dave were to have created an anonymous account and offered his opinions, you'd take them just as seriously as you would if you knew the poster was legit?

In that case, none of us require any reputation at all.....just a veil and some words that you can take or leave as trash or gospel.

Seems like an odd stance to take when 90%+ of the people on here are anonymous.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Perhaps. There are many posters on AzB that I know only by their screen names and the substance of their postings. I assume posters are "legit" unless they prove otherwise, but a poster's long history of good participation certainly enhances my confidence.



That's not a logical upshot of what I said. A poster's "reputation" for many purposes on AzB can be well formed by his posting history or profile.

....and if a poster wishes to be taken seriously, and by that..being critical of a well known Person ( not just a poster )...why should anonymity be considered ok?

You wouldn't lend money to someone based on their character merely from their posting content.....would you? Nah...you'd want something to base this "opinion" on. In this example, you have some anonymous poster taking shots at Dave's livelihood.
Why is that ok?

 

[berko]

I think anonymity on AZB is different than the conventional meaning.

There are many posters here for whom I dont know their name, but they arent exactly unknown to me.

Anonymous on AZB are the guys with less than 5 posts who come on and have a well worn axe to grind.

 

[dr_dave]

Why should someone like Dave give a moment worth of consideration to an anonymous opinion?....especially an antagonistic one?

I value input, feedback, and questions from everyone, even if I don't always agree with them or like their style of posting. "His Boy Elroy" (AKA Elroy) did have some valid questions:

Why does a diploma cost so much?
and
Do you think it is appropriate to use the words "university" and "diploma?"

I was happy to answer these questions, and I did so many times in several different logical and reasonable ways throughout the thread.

Now, what I didn't appreciate was the relentless negativity, criticism, nit-picking, and confrontation both from Elroy and "English!" (AKA Rick). I also didn't appreciate being called a "shyster and a fraud" in an emphatic and slanderous way. People that do that will no longer get my respect, nor will I respond to them in the future.

Honestly, I am surprised Rick was banned and Elroy was not. The amount of negativity, abuse, criticism, confrontation, disregard for forum etiquette, total lack of personal respect, and slander that Elroy dished out in this thread makes Rick look like a quiet and respectful angel (which he obviously is not).

That's just my opinion, as the non-anonymous "shyster and a fraud" that I am (according to Elroy).

Thank you in advance for helping to keep this forum a place that pool enthusiasts, instructors, authors, and players might want to continue to visit in the future.

Best regards,
Dave

PS: BTW, please free "PJ." I miss him.

 

[dr_dave]

Dr. Dave ("the other one"),

Thanks! I'm glad you are proud of your BU "Doctorate of Pool" diploma.

One of these days, you need to get a score that is more representative of your actual "speed." I am certain you are capable of a "Doctorate of Pool with Honors" if you actually practiced and really tried.

Catch you later,
Dr. Dean Dave (the other "Dr. Dave")

Nah, I'm good. But thanks.

Dr. Dave (without honors, but honorable)

You probably knew that I knew that you wouldn't want to practice and challenge yourself further with the BU Exams.

You're still worthy and honorable pool "doctor" in my book.

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[AtLarge]

....and if a poster wishes to be taken seriously, and by that..being critical of a well known Person ( not just a poster )...why should anonymity be considered ok?

It's fine for an anonymous poster to be critical of something said or done by a well known Person. Just do it politely and give your reason(s). That's the basis for a civil response and, perhaps, even a civil debate. What's not fine is to do it in a manner that violates Forum Rules, such as: "there will be no ad hominem attacks. No name calling nor insults. Disagreeing with someone is fine, but calling them an idiot because of their opinion is not."

You wouldn't lend money to someone based on their character merely from their posting content.....would you? Nah...you'd want something to base this "opinion" on. In this example, you have some anonymous poster taking shots at Dave's livelihood.
Why is that ok?

It was not OK; it violated Forum Rules. But the anonymity of the violator(s) was not the problem.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

It's fine for an anonymous poster to be critical of something said or done by a well known Person. Just do it politely and give your reason(s). That's the basis for a civil response and, perhaps, even a civil debate. What's not fine is to do it in a manner that violates Forum Rules, such as: "there will be no ad hominem attacks. No name calling nor insults. Disagreeing with someone is fine, but calling them an idiot because of their opinion is not."



It was not OK; it violated Forum Rules. But the anonymity of the violator(s) was not the problem.

I don't disagree with you.

 

[His Boy Elroy]

What do you have against the BU Exams, rating system, and all of the supporting materials being available for free? The 3-DVD BU instructional series is available for purchase for those who want instructional help. The DVDs cover the exams in detail along with lots of instruction dealing with fundamentals, aiming systems for various types of shots, cue ball control and run-out strategies, and the break shot.

The reason why we put all of the exam materials and rating system stuff out there for free is that we wanted people to use it. We also hoped instructors around the world would embrace the BU concept. We also wanted instructors to benefit from any profits they help generate (mostly from DVD sales). I never once even thought about charging for the exams and rating system. Nor did I ever want to charge instructors any annual membership dues or training fees. We wanted instructors and students to have absolutely no reason to not use and benefit from our stuff.

Not true. The main expected source of profit is DVD sales, both directly from the website and through all of our instructors who also benefit from the sales. We also hoped the diplomas could generate some profit if the BU system became popular and widespread, but I always doubted the potential concerning diploma sales (regardless of the price). Having said that, I still think there are people out there who would value the diploma and not think the price is inappropriate. Again, the value of a diploma is explained at the bottom of the BU diploma section on the website. You obvious don't value these things or appreciate how much work and time went into developing the BU, but people with disposable income, a passion for pool excellence, and appreciation for what we offer might think otherwise.

I think I have addressed this completely and clearly in previous posts. I won't repeat myself.

Interesting. You "regret" your harsh tone, but you are not "sorry" for it. Again, I wish the BU had a counseling center to which I could refer you to explore those feelings further.

Anybody who knows me and my work knows that I have thought this through a very long time already, with significant input from many respected people. Sorry, but I see no need to put any more thought into any of your criticisms because they honestly don't make much sense to me. Sorry.

Regards,
Dave

This is what set me off with my choice words for the Dr. I was trying to make the debate more civil. I was reaching out to him for God's sake. I was saying, I'm not going to apologize at all, but I won't necessarily question your motives as harshly.
I was told you're a good guy. Why don't you think about what you're doing?

You're promoting what a terrific thing it would be for someone to post a video of themselves on You Tube taking this test, having a so-called billiard university representative confirm the score award a degree, and then merely list the degree on the so-called billiard university web site for $150.

Scott lee argues that it's free enterprise and the Dr. Should be able to charge $5 or $50 if he wants. I'm not arguing for any change in the free market system that would disallow this. Other posters say if other people want to do this, what do I care?

Call me an az billiards consumer advocate. If someone wants to open a hot dog stand and they believe they can convince a certain market out there to pay $50 for a hot dog, in the free enterprise system, they have the right to do it. We also have free speech in this country and I'll question why these folks are trying to sell a hot dog for $50 dollars even though there very well may be a market for it.

Why on earth are they trying to sell a mere listing of a test takers so-called degree status on their web site for $150. I believe that while no one is stupid enough to believe this is really a 4 year accredited university, everything is university themed and their trying to psychologically plant in the minds of some that this is the first pool version of a university.

So getting back to the first paragraph; I originally believed this psychological ploy was deliberate and conscious. No way was I going to apologize for thinking this. Upon further reflection, however, I began to give them the benefit of the doubt and thought the ploy maybe was subconscious. So I basically reached out to the Dr. as can plainly be seen in the words above. He then struck back with sarcasm at my attempt to reach out to him. That's what caused me to no longer give him the benefit of doubt and some choice words ensued. I never wanted that to happen.

As for my anonymity, Mr. Wilson. It wouldn't make any difference if I gave out my name. No one in the pool community would recognize my name. I've spent 2 hours of my life in a pool room. I've spent about 9998 hours playing in my basement.

 

[Mr. Bond]

Elroy, its disappointing that you think so little of me, and all the members here.

Not just disappointing but also insulting, for you to presume that you were the only one with brains enough to figure out that Dr. Dave is a fraud. The rest of us must be mindless drones I guess.

Well here's the irony Elroy: It's actually the other way around.
Practically everyone here knows that Dave is not a fraud, except for you.

I will accept your apology anytime, either public or private.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

As for my anonymity, Mr. Wilson. It wouldn't make any difference if I gave out my name. No one in the pool community would recognize my name. I've spent 2 hours of my life in a pool room. I've spent about 9998 hours playing in my basement.

That's a shame. Kinda makes you an arm chair quarterback more than a consumer advocate...don't you think?

Maybe a big fish in a very, very little pond.....but there is not just one but vast oceans you admit to not spending any time in.

Just what would put you in touch with what the consumers of these products want?