2013 Joss "Handmade" Cue - Not Exactly What They "Used To Make"

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Electronics store?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

We had a chain of super stores called Ultimate Electronics. Besides all the TVs -appliances and such they had a huge Billiards department.

They sold Brunswick pool tables, cues and all the accessories. At any one time they would have 100 cues on display-Lucasi-Viking-Joss-Action and a bunch of decal cues. Quite impressive. They also had a demo table set up so you could try out a cue before you bought. I was known to go there and play on their table for an hour or so under the pretense of buying a cue or table. Free pool. And it was a 9 foot Gold Crown.
Free water at the water fountain was a plus :thumbup:
 

Duane Remick

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thats a shame

I don't involve myself in too many cue issues' threads,
that cue doesn't look right though"
The BLACK OUTER VENEER looks LIKE PAINT, Not Wood" :embarrassed2:
 

Ken_4fun

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Disappointing.

Like most things, I dont care if he is a legend, in the HOF, or whatever other excuses others have posted in this thread.

I think you should be refunded your money or they should make a cue with the reasonable expectations.

I came out about a month ago with Showman cue or lack of cue issue. I got hammered for it, my thread was magically removed, and several nut huggers came out (like in this thread) to come to the side of John, where IMO, it is indefendable. But I got alot of PMs and email from folks that said it had happened to them, or their friends. While I appreciated the notes, it would have taken more guts to post in the thread their support. Thats what I am doing now.

Joss Cues have really gone down it appears.

Ken
 

DAVE_M

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Reminds me of some of the work by a notorious cuemaker that continually gets mentioned on this forum.

I think I broke one of those cues... lol :thumbup:

I would be extremely unhappy if this Joss were mine. That's not very good quality when the mop dots aren't lined up in the points.
 

cubswin

Just call me Joe...
Silver Member
I'd be pretty bummed by that cue for sure. I really like joss cues, have owned more than my share, and I'd be sending that one back.
 

Mikiemopa

pechauer dealer
Silver Member
I have had this experience with many cue makers, they just don't seem to care what they're putting out , as long as they get their money. I have found a couple I like and order from them.
 

leto1776

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Very disappointing to see that coming out of the Joss shop. If Toomny said he's bringing it to the attention of Dan, I wouldn't be surprised if this sees resolution.

I will say, been thinking of getting a custom order from Joss, and right now, this thread has me thinking second thoughts.
 

sonny_burnett

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am going to send Dan a link to this post.. If he has not seen it he probably should.. I have about 20 of his old Block letter cues and they all far exceed the workmanship in this cue.. I can't imagine he will turn his back on you.. Hope this works out for both of you in the end.. Dan S

Did you get a reply?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 

JoshStodola

My stroke is garbage
Silver Member
Don't hold your breath guys

No, Dan has not tried to contact me to make this right, and I would be utterly shocked if he did. After the way he talked to me on the phone, I sure as hell am not going to call him. He has my phone number, he knows how to reach me via email, and he knows how to use a computer too. I bet he would recognize this cue right away when he saw it.

And I can assure you without a shred of doubt that both Dan and Stephen had this cue in their hands. I think the following email excerpt proves that. This was sent to me the day the cue was shipped:

I was in the process of picking out a new killer piece of wood for your new (replacement) cue.
My son who is much smarter than me asked me "Dad what are you looking for"? I told him I had to find a new piece of wood for a custom cue.
He said that he had some really great wood hid off to the side and what order was it for?
I said that I had to replace a custom cue because the first one wasn't up to standards.
He said "What a shame who's cue was it"? When I told him yours he looked confused. "Why"? he asked.
I told him I had looked the cue over and the abalone was dull and didn't have any real sparkle.
Well long story short he hadn't polished it yet when I had looked at it.
Steve does all the finish work and all the polishing (He can still see). I think I confirmed his thought that I am getting old and senile. Hes just a kid only fifty-two.
After he polished the cue the difference is amazing ... as you will see about May 2nd.
Your cue is great looking and on the way. The ivory diamonds have plenty of grain in them so they look like ivory and the abalone is above and beyond. You don't know how relieved I am that I was wrong (hard word for me to say).

I got a tracking number and a link to the UPS web site to track the shipment. He closed the email with "Let me know what you think after you have had time to look at your cue." After reading this email I was excited and under the impression that everything was going to be perfect.

Making this thread was no impulse reaction, and my only intent is to forewarn others. Many pairs of eyes have seen this cue in person, including at least one other cuemaker, and everyone has given it the crooked eye. I think the vast majority of customers who would order a high-end custom cue like this would have responded in a much more abrasive manner than I did. I literally blew it off and did not let it bother me for a second. It still does not bother me. He won't get any more of my money, it is that simple. But I do feel that others should know about this because not everyone is as relaxed as I am. Also keep in mind that this was my first ever custom cue order and $1,800 is a lot of money for a self-sufficient guy in his 20s. I hand-picked Joss to make my dream cue because I thought with such a reputation and history I would be guaranteed a high quality result. Whoops.

The conclusion I made six months ago is that Dan is either legally blind or he just doesn't care what comes out of the shop any more. I learned one thing from all of this: Being nice comes with a price tag. I honestly believe if I was an insensitive unsympathetic jerk to Dan on the phone, and told him the cue was a complete useless piece of amateur garbage, I would have gotten my money back or a replacement no questions asked. But I was nice about it because the cue wasn't useless, it played very well, it just didn't meet my standards in terms of workmanship. I don't know what it is like to work on something for several months and have it turn out bad and have to start over from scratch, and I was trying to be considerate of that. Part of me actually felt bad for complaining! But I won't let that happen again. Next time I will put my foot down and it will stay down. Thanks again to all of you that have spoken up.
 
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Ken_4fun

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I went to their website and sent a note as well.

Maybe they will post my letter on their website....

Probably not.:eek:

Ken
 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
In all fairness to Dan the picture showing the veneers and Abalone dots is on about 10 times magnification of actual size on my screen. I reduced it down to where it was only one inch wide and could not see any flaws. The other pictures are showing up at about 4 times acutal size. A 4 times magnification jewelers loop will show many things like glue lines you cannot see with the naked eye. If the Abalone just has a dark spot in it then that is natural material. If the edge cut out that is another matter.

If you are giving up on this and want to cut your losses a little I will give you $500 for the cue.
 
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snowmon34

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The is a huge slap in the face..
There is no way in hell I would accept this cue!

1800.00 get's a nice cue from a very capable cue builder these days..

If I didn't get any satisfaction I would commit to A LIFETIME of
hammering the Joss name.. What a f'n joke!
 

snowmon34

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In all fairness to Dan the picture showing the veneers and Abalone dots is on about 10 times magnification of actual size on my screen. I reduced it down to where it was only one inch wide and could not see any flaws. The other pictures are showing up at about 4 times acutal size. A 4 times magnification jewelers loop will show many things like glue lines you cannot see with the naked eye. If the Abalone just has a dark spot in it then that is natural material. If the edge cut out that is another matter.

If you are giving up on this and want to cut your losses a little I will give you $500 for the cue.

Wow!!

Such a generous offer..
Here your attempting to protect Dan's name , and business claiming the
the macro photo's are unfair, and don't represent the workmanship accurately!

Than in the same paragraph you slap the OP in the face with a cash offer that reflects
shitty workmanship.. Looks like your talking out of both sides of your mouth..

Happy Holidays..lol
 

ddadams

Absolutely love this cue.
Silver Member
Wow!!

Such a generous offer..
Here your attempting to protect Dan's name , and business claiming the
the macro photo's are unfair, and don't represent the workmanship accurately!

Than in the same paragraph you slap the OP in the face with a cash offer that reflects
shitty workmanship.. Looks like your talking out of both sides of your mouth..

Happy Holidays..lol


I took some pretty close up magnified pictures of my Sugartrees recuts and points and don't see this stuff.

You're right about this.

$500 is a lot for what OP received from Joss..
 

JoshStodola

My stroke is garbage
Silver Member
In all fairness to Dan the picture showing the veneers and Abalone dots is on about 10 times magnification of actual size on my screen. I reduced it down to where it was only one inch wide and could not see any flaws. The other pictures are showing up at about 4 times acutal size. A 4 times magnification jewelers loop will show many things like glue lines you cannot see with the naked eye. If the Abalone just has a dark spot in it then that is natural material. If the edge cut out that is another matter.

Not really into measuring stuff on my monitor, but all you need to know is that these pictures were taken with a cell phone. I repeat: I took these pictures myself with a cell phone. And I suck at taking pictures, I am not a pro. I did take a lot of them though and I picked the ones that most accurately highlighted the flaws. But there is nothing high definition going on here. No digital enhancement. "No filter" I believe is what they call it Instagram.

The cue actually looks worse in person than in the pictures. Everything you see is clearly visible to the aforementioned "naked eye". And it goes without saying that when you look at the cue from a distance, it's not all that bad. Duh. When people like what they see from a distance they usually want to see it up close. I think most would agree this is something that should have never left that shop.

If you are giving up on this and want to cut your losses a little I will give you $500 for the cue.

I'd rather burn it!
 
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cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Wow!!

Such a generous offer..
Here your attempting to protect Dan's name , and business claiming the
the macro photo's are unfair, and don't represent the workmanship accurately!

Than in the same paragraph you slap the OP in the face with a cash offer that reflects
shitty workmanship.. Looks like your talking out of both sides of your mouth..

Happy Holidays..lol

No, I not talking out of both sides of my mouth. I am a cuemaker and a cue collector. I rarely pay top dollar for a cue. When I can get a real deal on a collectable cue I buy it. When buying a used cue 50% of new price is kind of average. So $500 would be a steal on the cue and although I am not looking for a Joss cue at this time I would take it for that price. I was not looking for a Bill Schick (since I already own one). But some time ago at a pool room someone I have known for years offered to sell me his for a real good deal. So I bought it. I would be thrilled to add this Joss to my collection for that price. Since I already have some Joss cues in my collection I am not looking for one, but will buy one if the deal is right. I have been offered $500 for my old block letter Joss. I just turned the offer down. He has done the same with me on this one and that is fine.

Shrink the pictures down to about an inch or so wide on your screen and see how bad it looks. I could be wrong and the cue look horrible in person, but I have looked at cues in my shop with a 4x loop and know what glue lines look like.

Here you go in closer to actual size.

KcBDdXQ.jpg
 
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$TAKE HOR$E

champagne - campaign
Silver Member
I got this cue over six months ago. I am writing this thread now because someone remarked on here in another post that Joss will still make a handmade cue with razor sharp points if you ask them. The phrase "like they used to make" was thrown around and I have to say I had a very different outcome. They definitely DO NOT make them like they used to. Let me share my experience with you.
On the topic of magnification and Joss cues I have a short story. I have had a few older Joss cues (early 70s era) and one time at a tournament I showed one to a dealer that I was selling. He pulled out the jewlers head piece and said "yeah I couldn't give you much you can see all the glue lines in the cue". A cuemaker friend of mine was with me and imediately called him on it, something to the tune of "that cue is about 40 years old what do you expect....and ill bet I can probably find something wrong with a lot of cues in your booth". Funny how you can remember those kinds of things. Long story short I went on down the line and sold the cue for not a penny less than I was asking to another dealer.

I have also delt with Dan on some older cues and have zero complaints, but I have never commissioned a cue from them. More often than not it seems people will let something leave their shop (not just cuemakers) even though it is not up to the highest standard in hopes the owner will except it, even with its faults. That may be what happened here or maybe they actually gave it a quick once over and let it slip out, that seems doubtful after reading the email though. It's definitely a lesson learned and im sure enough people will see this that it will have some effect on their sales, even if it's minuscule.
 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I took some pretty close up magnified pictures of my Sugartrees recuts and points and don't see this stuff.

You're right about this.

$500 is a lot for what OP received from Joss..

Here is the link to your sugartree cue.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=344444

The first picture looks great with no visible glue lines, because it is around actual size.
Then go down to the second picture which is 4 to 5 times actual size and you can see glue lines up the side of the points where the different woods meet. Do I think there is anything wrong with your Sugartree? NO! It is just fine. But it does have glue lines you can see under magnification just like the Joss has and like most cues have.

If you had pointed it out and said how dissatisfied you are and felt owed another cue, there would be a crucify Eric thread going right now. But because you are happy, the mob is happy. If you were not happy, the mob would not be happy either.

Again let me say I think Eric's cue is fine and it was not me that presented it as something to compare to. I also think the Joss cue is fine from what I see in the pictures when not magnified so heavily. But I have not seen either cue in person. If he posts actual size pictures from a good camera it might change my mind, but I am sticking to my opinion from the high magnification pictures presented so far.
 
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JoshStodola

My stroke is garbage
Silver Member
Even without pictures...

Let's forget about forensic image analysis and scientific formulas for magnfiying things on your monitor. Hell let's forget about glue! Look at my original post, I mentioned the veneers second. What about the first problem? I sent a picture of the inlay I wanted, he acknowledged it, said it would be no problem, but when I received the cue the inlays were a completely different shape.

But because you are happy, the mob is happy. If you were not happy, the mob would not be happy either.

I don't know what you are trying to say here.
 
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