4.5" pockets on a table

[BasementDweller]

When watching Shane make an amazing shot by spiking the ball down the rail and punching the cue ball out just enough to get position, I realized it couldn't be done on my old gold crown 2 with mismatched rails, ancient rubber, and shimmed pockets. The object ball gets rejected every time.

You may be right about your particular table but I've certainly seen pros fire in shots from all different angles on all different tables.

It depends on what your long-term goals are. If you want to pull off those types of shots, you need perfect equipment. If you are just kicking around having fun, then by all means play on.

You don't need perfect equipment. I'll grant you that the hard shots along the end rail are the ones that are the most likely to bobble but this country is littered with tables that don't have the proper miter angle, and the proper cushions, and the proper facings and you know what -- on many of them you can still fire the ball in along the rail.

And he has a point in asking how does it play after cloth is broke in and settled on facings. Freshly clothed rails will be deceiving, he isn't exaggerating there.

Never said he was.

All I'm doing here is trying to point out that you can love to play pool and play on less than perfect equipment. The way we talk about pocket specs on here you would think that Mosconi would have never been able to make a ball because of how horribly pockets where set up in the past.

 

[Bishop]

There's certainly some middle ground here. Thing don't need to be perfect for most players to enjoy a table. I'd venture to say that most average players wouldn't know the difference between a shimmed pocket and a dialed table...but there is a difference.

When its your personal table and you're spending countless hours on it you'll pick up on the little things. Glen does have a point...when you're shelling out top dollar for a cue it doesn't make any sense to get frugal with the playability of the table.

Its a sound investment to have it done right...will everyone know the difference? No. But you will and down the road you'll be glad you payed to have it done right up front.

 

[fastone371]

I will start out by not quoting anyone so nobody has to be defensive. I am just starting my 4th year of play so I am plenty inexperienced. As far as the game being less enjoyable on less than perfect tables have you guys ever played on Diamonds? After spending some time playing on Diamonds I can tell you from personal experience that I choose not to go to establishments with tired old Valleys. Why? Cause it sucks paying money to play on crappy tables. If you guys are OK with beat up old Valleys with dead rails more power to you. In our leagues up here it has gotten to the point if you want a men's BCA league you need a Diamond because nobody wants to play for a bar with anything less. My first experience playing on a nice table was on a GC. I was looking for a home table and found a pristine privately owned GCII. Then I wanted to put new rubber and cloth on. Simonis=$300.00 Artemis=$300.00 more plus labor. But then I found out that the new cushions did not match my Monarch Super Speeds. Some installers suggested I just go ahead and put on the wrong rubber, at 100" long playing surface !/4" would not be missed. I suppose that is true unless you stop and realize the table wont be twice as long as it is wide anymore. Why would anyone spend close to $1000.00 for new cloth and rubber then intentionally f*(% up their table with wrong rubber? I spent the extra money to have the sub rails modified and do not regret 1 penny of it. If you are thinking about doing it it makes sense to do it sooner than later to get the use out of the table. I have less than $2k in my table including the modifications, cloth, rubber, purchase price and I got a real cool floor standing double sided cue rack and an original Titlist with the deal. I see a whole lot of used cues for sale for more than that. It just does not make sense to buy a $3k cue for a crappy playing table. One other point. My friend has one of those Chinese tables, American Heritage I think, the pockets are so big and the pocket shelves are so shallow that you can almost pocket a ball in the side pocket running a ball down the rail. That table is not whatsoever close to being enjoyable to play on. I have pictures of my table in my profile, I am not embarrassed to have anyone see or play on my table.:grin-square:

 

[GideonF]

There's certainly some middle ground here. Thing don't need to be perfect for most players to enjoy a table. I'd venture to say that most average players wouldn't know the difference between a shimmed pocket and a dialed table...but there is a difference.

When its your personal table and you're spending countless hours on it you'll pick up on the little things. Glen does have a point...when you're shelling out top dollar for a cue it doesn't make any sense to get frugal with the playability of the table.

Its a sound investment to have it done right...will everyone know the difference? No. But you will and down the road you'll be glad you payed to have it done right up front.

I agree with this.

On the one hand, the pool table mechanic is right that many people cheap out on their tables and cloth and don't do it right and that if you look at your table as an investment in years of recreation, spending the money to do it right is a bargain. Many pool players will balk at paying a few hundred dollars for a job done right when they will go buy a custom cue for thousands, or a set of golf clubs etc.

On the other hand, the perfect should not be the enemy of the good. If a person cannot afford a perfectly done (or even really really well done) table, or chooses not to spend the money on that instead of other priorities in life, that doesn't mean that the table that they DO have is not good and will not give them and their friends and family enjoyment, or help improve their game. Every time I feel like complaining about equipment I think of the youtube videos of the money games in the Phillipines! The interesting point that Glenn makes is to suggest that adding bigger shims to standard pocket is not going to make the table play better, which is an interesting perspective.

Gideon

 

[Jodacus]

OK.....but

A newer GC with standard miters but smaller pockets
will accept a ball fired down the rail at almost any
speed, short of break speed, as long as the ball doesn't
touch the rail on the way. If a ball is close to the rail
and it touches the side rail on the way to the pocket
it will either hang or be kicked out. All this means to
me is I can not cheat the pocket as much. Which is
why the pocket size is reduced in the first place!



Closing the pocket mouth with neoprene rubber with
a durometer of 60 (70 is ok but not quite as good) will
lead to a longer cloth life in the corners where the wear
is worst. Extending the wood and the cushion and
using a standard facing may be the "purest" method
of closing a pocket but most players are happy with
either method. After all, public rooms almost never
go to the expense of extending the whole rail and
the public room is where most of us learned to play.

I think for the most part these are distinctions without
a difference. I have never played anyone yet where
we played on different tables. Any table peculiarities
applied to both of us.

Joe

 

[realkingcobra]

Newer GC's haven't gone through as many hacks working on them, so that has nothing to do with tables out here 15-20 plus years of wear n tear on them. And factory GC corner pockets are 5" unless the tournament edition GC's were bought new, and are still wider than 4 1/2" at the mouth of the pockets. The main reason pool rooms are closing is because they're loosing their customer base, yet there's more people playing pool today than there's ever been, just look at how many different cue makers there are, they're selling us to someone who plays pool. Diamond is constantly selling tables to new room owners, as well as replacing GC's with Diamonds in existing pool rooms, not to mention the bar tables they're selling....so, why do pool rooms close?...because without customers returning back through their doors to play pool, they have no income, that's why, so look at the reasons why....the condition of the pool tables might just be ONE of them reasons, as well as several others.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Will want, or have no choice.

I vote for the latter.

Yeah I think you are exaggerating when you say "no one is gong to want to play on a table that rejects every ball pocketing attempt unless it's made right down the center of the pocket, because all the pocket facing are going to do with to wide of miter angles....is spit out every ball coming off the facings."

Plenty of people will want to play on less than perfect tables AND every single ball will not be rejected. Those are clear exaggerations.

 

[takeitdown]

Post up some pictures of that work you did, let's take a look at them pockets today, I'd like to see for myself what kind of work you performed.

Her it is.1962 table with original red rubber super speed cushions. I cleaned the rails until they were red. I reapplied any loose areas of rail with contact cement, those were near the pocket end mostly. Table plays fantastic. Bought it for 800 7 years back with a set of Aramith balls rack and house cues. I have a Valley barbox which is right beside this one...no excuses.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

I've only been seriously been playing for seven years, and the last five of them, I've had a beat up gold crown 2 bought from an area pool hall. I've always wanted to learn with inferior equipment until I felt I deserved to step up in quality. So I see basement dwellers point in that most will be fine with the shimmed pockets. But after countless hours of further beating on the table, I'm going to sink some serious coin into the rails and new cloth for about 1/4 of what guys at my work pay in golf memberships. I don't see it as expensive by any means if compared to the time I'll get out of my investment.

On the quality of table and playing debate, I was thiking it's similar to basketball- can be played on an uneven cracked blacktop with chain nets on double rims...the ball may bounce funny off the dribble and rattle in and out on jump shots but it's still enjoyable. But if you want to play pro conditions you'll have to be paying for a hard wood gym with nylon nets, and the game takes on a whole new level.

 

[realkingcobra]

In the last picture you posted you can clearly see the pocket facing is cupping inward because the end grain of the sub-rail is shattered, and the right facing is curved outward, and the pockets are not lined up with the castings, and those pocket liners are not Brunswick ball return pocket liners....looks just like the tables I rebuild all the time, and oh yes, your corner pockets are about 5" wide at the points, or at least very close to that.

 

[Bishop]

In the last picture you posted you can clearly see the pocket facing is cupping inward because the end grain of the sub-rail is shattered, and the right facing is curved outward, and the pockets are not lined up with the castings, and those pocket liners are not Brunswick ball return pocket liners....looks just like the tables I rebuild all the time, and oh yes, your corner pockets are about 5" wide at the points, or at least very close to that.

I rarely agree with RKC but these are the same things I'm seeing in that picture. Additionally some cupping at the end of the rubber probably due to stacking shims that might have been over trimmed or the cloth wasn't tacked up properly when they pulled it around the rubber and facing.

It really is the difference between a table that plays and a table that is dialed in.

 

[buddha162]

Glen, my pool hall has one of the red label diamonds, and the rails play significantly slower than the new blue label models. Why is this? And can it be fixed?

 

[realkingcobra]

No, they're single shimmer for sure, but no other work has been done to the pockets, I can still see the right miter is wider than the left miter is, just like all factory GC pockets, even on the GC5's.

 

[realkingcobra]

Glen, my pool hall has one of the red label diamonds, and the rails play significantly slower than the new blue label models. Why is this? And can it be fixed?

Without more information, I can't answer why it plays slower, but yes, I can fix any Diamond to play like a brand new Diamond straight from the factory bought today.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

No, they're single shimmer for sure, but no other work has been done to the pockets, I can still see the right miter is wider than the left miter is, just like all factory GC pockets, even on the GC5's.

So after five years of playing on my rails, that's why the left pocket facing looks like a letter C? The shim is worn through, and by extending subrails to the correct angle will decrease that?

This is all very interesting. Keep the info coming!

 

[takeitdown]

In the last picture you posted you can clearly see the pocket facing is cupping inward because the end grain of the sub-rail is shattered, and the right facing is curved outward, and the pockets are not lined up with the castings, and those pocket liners are not Brunswick ball return pocket liners....looks just like the tables I rebuild all the time, and oh yes, your corner pockets are about 5" wide at the points, or at least very close to that.

Table is nowhere near 5 inch holes.
You just like to slam people with your expertise.
I know people who are the best in the world at what they do who aren't arrogant bores like you.
You are pathological it's really pretty sad.
I went to school for 6 years to perform my job saving lives and helping people. So yeah if my table is good enough for me it's good enough.

 

[Bishop]

Table is nowhere near 5 inch holes.
You just like to slam people with your expertise.
I know people who are the best in the world at what they do who aren't arrogant bores like you.
You are pathological it's really pretty sad.
I went to school for 6 years to perform my job saving lives and helping people. So yeah if my table is good enough for me it's good enough.

Relax...I know I would happily play on your table and I'm sure almost all of us would. There's nothing "wrong" with your table...nothing outstanding or game breaking that is.

But from a consistency stand point there is a difference when you get down to maximizing the playability of a table.

I'm no fan of Glen or his bedside manor...just ask him, but I do agree with things he's pointing out when compared to a table that went though hours of tuning.

 

[realkingcobra]

So after five years of playing on my rails, that's why the left pocket facing looks like a letter C? The shim is worn through, and by extending subrails to the correct angle will decrease that?

This is all very interesting. Keep the info coming!

No, the facing becomes deformed because the end grain of the sub-rail right there where it cups inward no longer has any strength in it to keep the facing straight, kind of like how a 2 X 4 looks if you keep hammering the board right on the end, it's crushing the grain of the wood inward.

 

[realkingcobra]

Table is nowhere near 5 inch holes.
You just like to slam people with your expertise.
I know people who are the best in the world at what they do who aren't arrogant bores like you.
You are pathological it's really pretty sad.
I went to school for 6 years to perform my job saving lives and helping people. So yeah if my table is good enough for me it's good enough.

Thank god no one has ever called on you to save the life of a pool table

 

[takeitdown]

Thank god no one has ever called on you to save the life of a pool table

Did that guy ever get his rails back? Did he get the money he paid you for the work you never did?

Your perfect plastic wood tables are the new standard sure. They still bank completely goofy, short and just plain wrong. On those 3 points they are just like you. Good luck saving pool one table at a time while living in a van by the river and insulting house wife's across America for their hospitality.

You come off like a complete tool. Best of luck Glen.