526 and John Schmidt

[Richardson]

tables and equipment were obviously worse back then. just look at some old collectables and see for yourself.

to answer the question i would say no, although JS is an awesome shooter and probably has the best chance of anyone in the world.

 

[Richardson]

tables and equipment were obviously worse back then. just look at some old collectables and see for yourself.

to answer the question i would say no, although JS is an awesome shooter and probably has the best chance of anyone in the world.

 

[Richardson]

tables and equipment were obviously worse back then. just look at some old collectables and see for yourself.

to answer the question i would say no, although JS is an awesome shooter and probably has the best chance of anyone in the world.

 

[TheWizard]

I can think of 6 top shooters that are certainly capable of at least giving the record a damn good run.

Thomas Engert
John Schmidt
Danny Harriman
Thorsten Hohman
Nick Van Den Berg
Niels Fejin

I imagine though that there are quite a few other top level shooters that could also giuve the record a damn good run also, given the chance to really go for it, but untill someone actually does break it, then we'll be continualy wondering and guess who will/won't break the record, and that doesn't serve any real purpose.

To anyone going for the record, hats off to you and I hope that you're successful in achieving it :thumbup:

Willie

 

[Zagiflyer]

I'm thinking that somebody is going to break this record and get it on tape with some witnesses at some point. It seems that lately there has been a rash of really good players recording runs on video and I'm sure if these guys are in pool halls there are people watching. It would have to unquestionably legitimate and that may be the tough part. There are several players who have run 400+ (Schmidt has done it twice) and some of these guys can run 100 or 200+ in practice almost daily if they feel like doing it. There seems to be a market for "high-run" DVD's and some of these guys are making them. I like the idea of a Derby City type table at a tournament or other venue for run attempts. In fairness though I think it should be a standard GC or other table that would approximate the equipment that Mosconi made the run on. The motiviation to really make a run at this record may require a large enough prize. After all, money is what got Charles Lindbergh to fly a single engine airplane across the Atlantic solo and nobody thought that could be done. We need a very rich 14.1 fanatic to post a prize and set the contest rules, any takers?

It won't be easy because that's a huge run and the longer you play the greater the chances are that a bad roll or a minor lapse in concentration will get you. I would never say never though, some of these guys can shoot the lights out.

 

[pdcue]

I saw Mosconi play maybe a 100 exhibitions, I was like a stalker and would drive to see him. He often would do like a dozen in one area afternoon and night. They almost always concluded with him playing a local champ a 150 point match. When he was on a run and ran out he always continued the run if it was over a 100 and often did 200 +. Contrary to what many people may think, this was not done on some set up table he carried around with him. He would just pick a table in the room usually based on where the most people could comfortably watch and play. He could run hundreds on good tables, bad tables, humidity, nothing seemed to make a difference. I am talking about the 60's when he was already past his prime. He ran balls at will, I can't believe the game can be played better then he played it. He also played so often in front of an audience he had a zillion opportunities to run balls. I don't know when someone today could do it. There aren't even any 14.1 tournaments. It would be interesting to know how many 250 or 300 ball runs Mosconi had that are long forgotten. I would bet they are in the hundreds. Lets face it, he was the best.

Some good points.

I continue to be stunned by the fact that so many people who ought to
know better seem clueless to the diference between Mosconi's record and
the practice runs everybody else does.

He got only 1 chance a DAY - sometimes 2 - AND... running balls
wasn't the only goal - it was part of the show.

There is no way anyone will be duplicating the conditions he played under.

Charlie Ursetti(sp) tells the story of racking for Willie at his house.
Willie ran close to 700 and walked away from a perfect break ball
because supper was ready - this on a tight 9ft.

Dale

 

[CrownCityCorey]

If any of those three: John, Thorsten, or Thomas were to dedicate a year to playing 14.1 everyday at a poolroom (on camera). I think the record would be beaten.

I always thought it would be worth the effort. The press would be quite nice and the new record holder should be able to make some $$$ from the video and appearance fees. Worth the investment IMO.

 

[Rich93]

I saw Mosconi play maybe a 100 exhibitions, I was like a stalker and would drive to see him. He often would do like a dozen in one area afternoon and night. They almost always concluded with him playing a local champ a 150 point match. When he was on a run and ran out he always continued the run if it was over a 100 and often did 200 +. Contrary to what many people may think, this was not done on some set up table he carried around with him. He would just pick a table in the room usually based on where the most people could comfortably watch and play. He could run hundreds on good tables, bad tables, humidity, nothing seemed to make a difference. I am talking about the 60's when he was already past his prime. He ran balls at will, I can't believe the game can be played better then he played it. He also played so often in front of an audience he had a zillion opportunities to run balls. I don't know when someone today could do it. There aren't even any 14.1 tournaments. It would be interesting to know how many 250 or 300 ball runs Mosconi had that are long forgotten. I would bet they are in the hundreds. Lets face it, he was the best.

I only saw Mosconi twice (in the early 60's post-Hustler boom). Unfortunately, he didn't run 100 either time - off days, I guess. But I remember a couple of things about his play that surprised me. First, he was fast. He never took time to think, he just did it. Two quick practice swings, pocket the ball, and charge off to the next shot.

Second, his break shots were amazing. The cue ball didn't seem to pop open the rack, it plowed through it like Dick Butkus against high school linemen. The guy had one powerful stroke. I remember going back to the poolroom and trying to make my cueball act like that - never could.

As for the record, damn, I hope nobody ever breaks it. Not because I worship Mosconi, but because, as sure as night follows day, whoever breaks it will be acclaimed by many to be the now indisputably greatest straight pool player of all time. And that would be wrong. Running 526 doesn't make Mosconi the greatest, his many years of dominance against top competition does.

I like Irving Crane's quote regarding Mosconi - something like "I can do everything on a pool table that he can, so why can't I beat him?"

If Babe Cranfield, who ran more than 700 in practice, had done more exhibitions and tried hard to break Mosconi's record, he might well have broken it in front of witnesses. But what would that have proved? He never beat Mosconi in the tournaments.

 

[Bobby]

While it's certainly possible to beat Willies 526 ball run, I wouldn't bet on it. Some things to consider: Willies 526 was an exhibition run in front of people, it was his highest confirmed run, we know he ran higher in practice - he claimed runs of 589 and 608 I believe. Hohmann and Schmidt whom most people seem to consider the top candidtaes to beat the record have 403 and 408 as personal high runs in practice, not in exhibition where I think the pressure would be greater.

Another thing is how hard it is to stay focused after running 400 balls or so, it's easy to get careless at that point. Johnny Ervolino who had a high run of 361 balls told me I wouldn't believe the shot he missed to end the run, he said it was a hanger and he missed out of sheer carelessness.

You also have to get lucky to always have some kind of shot after each of the 38 breaks it would take to pass 526 balls. Even the very best players with great knowledge of break shots come up dry quite a bit.

Also, imagine the pressure that would build up after about 480-525 balls! If I was that good and closing in on Willies record my thinking would be "don't screw up because I'll probably never be in this position ever again". Maybe I'm wrong, maybe champions don't think that way, who knows.

While I wouldn't bet money that it will be broken I won't dismiss the idea either. If I had to pick a player to do it I'd say Thorsten Hohmann would be the best bet but I wouldn't be surprised to see Alex Pagulayan or Neils Fiejien make a run at it someday.

 

[PETARD]

Mosconi Vs Today's Players

I saw Mosconi play maybe a 100 exhibitions, I was like a stalker and would drive to see him. He often would do like a dozen in one area afternoon and night. They almost always concluded with him playing a local champ a 150 point match. When he was on a run and ran out he always continued the run if it was over a 100 and often did 200 +. Contrary to what many people may think, this was not done on some set up table he carried around with him. He would just pick a table in the room usually based on where the most people could comfortably watch and play. He could run hundreds on good tables, bad tables, humidity, nothing seemed to make a difference. I am talking about the 60's when he was already past his prime. He ran balls at will, I can't believe the game can be played better then he played it. He also played so often in front of an audience he had a zillion opportunities to run balls. I don't know when someone today could do it. There aren't even any 14.1 tournaments. It would be interesting to know how many 250 or 300 ball runs Mosconi had that are long forgotten. I would bet they are in the hundreds. Lets face it, he was the best.

Still favor TH, TE, JS, and several others in 14.1 but Mosconi was awesome. I was collegiate bowling and billiard champion in college and chose bowling as a person could only compete in one sport at the nationals. I watched Mosconi play the previous year's winner who was dressed with black suit, black shirt, white tie, chomping gum. greased hair and pimples; Mosconi hated him immediately. At the afternoon free session, Mosconi annunced he would run 150 and quit; after a few safeties, Mosconi ran 150 and unscrewed the cue as promised. The evening session he said he would try to run 200 as the spectators had paid a small fee and deserved a better perfomance; the same thing happened. Mosconi was asked to keep going to beat 526 and he denied as he said, "I already did that!!!!". I grabbed a cue and the table was a tournament 4.5 x 9.0 table and played fairly but I noticed the balls broke very easily but quite an impressive showing I will never forget.

 

[jay helfert]

I only saw Mosconi twice (in the early 60's post-Hustler boom). Unfortunately, he didn't run 100 either time - off days, I guess. But I remember a couple of things about his play that surprised me. First, he was fast. He never took time to think, he just did it. Two quick practice swings, pocket the ball, and charge off to the next shot.

Second, his break shots were amazing. The cue ball didn't seem to pop open the rack, it plowed through it like Dick Butkus against high school linemen. The guy had one powerful stroke. I remember going back to the poolroom and trying to make my cueball act like that - never could.

As for the record, damn, I hope nobody ever breaks it. Not because I worship Mosconi, but because, as sure as night follows day, whoever breaks it will be acclaimed by many to be the now indisputably greatest straight pool player of all time. And that would be wrong. Running 526 doesn't make Mosconi the greatest, his many years of dominance against top competition does.

I like Irving Crane's quote regarding Mosconi - something like "I can do everything on a pool table that he can, so why can't I beat him?"

If Babe Cranfield, who ran more than 700 in practice, had done more exhibitions and tried hard to break Mosconi's record, he might well have broken it in front of witnesses. But what would that have proved? He never beat Mosconi in the tournaments.

Crane and Jimmy Caras were Mosconi's chief competition in those days. They both won world championships during the Mosconi era and defeated him in several matches. Willie was a great player (kind of like Tiger), but not invincible.

 

[Rich93]

Crane and Jimmy Caras were Mosconi's chief competition in those days. They booth won world championships during the Mosconi era and defeated him in several matches. Willie was a great player (kind of like Tiger), but not invincible.

Jay, I didn't mean to imply that he had never been beaten, but the Crane quote is accurate, I think. Crane wasn't saying that he never beat Willie, but that he did it much less than he thought he should have.

When Mosconi lost to Crane or Caras, though, I think he always, or almost always, reclaimed the title shortly thereafter in a one-on-one challenge match. I forget the details, but I think Mosconi's challenge match record was near perfect. He could lose once, but not twice in a row.

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, I didn't mean to imply that he had never been beaten, but the Crane quote is accurate, I think. Crane wasn't saying that he never beat Willie, but that he did it much less than he thought he should have.

When Mosconi lost to Crane or Caras, though, I think he always, or almost always, reclaimed the title shortly thereafter in a one-on-one challenge match. I forget the details, but I think Mosconi's challenge match record was near perfect. He could lose once, but not twice in a row.

About half of his World Championships were from winning long challenge matches. John was right about that.

 

[sjm]

About half of his World Championships were from winning long challenge matches. John was right about that.

I remember those challenge matches, though I never saw one of them from start to finish, and I'd like to see the format return.

Irving Crane related the story to me of a long challenge match he played and narrowly lost in the mid 1960's to Lassiter (not for the world title), with the format being a race to 1000 as follows:

Day 1: Straight pool until one of the players reached 250
Day 2: Continuation of the race until one of the players rached 500
Day 3: Continution of the race until one of the players rached 750
Day 4: Completion of the race until one player had 1000

Now that's a mouthful. Imagine Schmidt and Hohmann matching up like this. Might be fun, right?

 

[Bobby]

Jay, I didn't mean to imply that he had never been beaten, but the Crane quote is accurate, I think. Crane wasn't saying that he never beat Willie, but that he did it much less than he thought he should have.

When Mosconi lost to Crane or Caras, though, I think he always, or almost always, reclaimed the title shortly thereafter in a one-on-one challenge match. I forget the details, but I think Mosconi's challenge match record was near perfect. He could lose once, but not twice in a row.

His challenge match record is what impresses me about Mosconi more than anything else. Most of them were total blowouts with his opponent ending up with about half of Willies total. I can't remember the exact numbers but I think he beat Crane 2000-950 and Caras something like 6000-3300... I think that one was played over a long time in many cities. I just can't imagine the players of today keeping up with Willie in that format.

 

[Mr441]

I'd pick Thorsten Hohmann in a heartbeat over John Schmidt. If they played a 1000 point match I honestly think Hohmann would win something like 1000-750. I've seen John Schmidt at the 14.1 worlds and I can't say that I was overly impressed with his game. Just my opinion.

 

[Richardson]

I'd pick Thorsten Hohmann in a heartbeat over John Schmidt. If they played a 1000 point match I honestly think Hohmann would win something like 1000-750. I've seen John Schmidt at the 14.1 worlds and I can't say that I was overly impressed with his game. Just my opinion.

BOLD sir, very bold statement.

btw sorry for my triple earlier, internet lag.

 

[Marop]

211

I picked up John from the airport at 1:00 pm, he has been on an airplane since 6:30 am. We had lunch and headed to my house, its raining out so the table is playing a little tight. On his 5th try he ran 211, got a bad break on a breakshot and really had no shot. The whole run is on video.

Hes not going to be playing much pool as he is in town to go dirt bike riding.

It would be interesting to see him trade in his dirt bike for a 4 X 8 with big pockets.

Bill

 

[Mr441]

BOLD sir, very bold statement.

btw sorry for my triple earlier, internet lag.

I guess my statement could be considered bold but I'd back it up with cash if that match ever happened. :smile:

 

[Rich93]

I'd pick Thorsten Hohmann in a heartbeat over John Schmidt. If they played a 1000 point match I honestly think Hohmann would win something like 1000-750. I've seen John Schmidt at the 14.1 worlds and I can't say that I was overly impressed with his game. Just my opinion.

When you were at the world's did you go up to John and tell him face to face that you weren't overly impressed with his game? No? Then I don't think you should do it here. Just my opinion.