9-ball, change the rules
- Thread starter cbi1000
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I feel ya bro. In town this weekend from Bakersfield for a funeral and played in KC's Midway tourney on Friday and had some slop happen. Institute $#!+ for slop and ya got it. Still in 3rd money but still. The percentage of it helping a good player vesus helping a bad player is off ratio for sure. Still the the better players cash more often even without the luck factor.
Hope your new cue is coming along well.
Hope your new cue is coming along well.
When I had just started to play, my mentor used to say, don't like slop in 9-ball, play straight pool instead.
Looks like you have made a choice.
Looks like you have made a choice.
cbi1000 said:
I don't think that it's such a big deal... if you slop one ball you still have to pocket 8 more for a win...
slops are happening both ways no need to cry about it.... I'm sure if your last session's outcome was the other way around you wouldn't start this thread...
The better player you become the less it'll bother you (and that's coming from a B player as well).
slops are happening both ways no need to cry about it.... I'm sure if your last session's outcome was the other way around you wouldn't start this thread...
The better player you become the less it'll bother you (and that's coming from a B player as well).
Straight pool or One Pocket. I detest 8 ball and have just about given up 9 ball because of the one-foul-ball-in-hand-anywhere rules.
I play 10 ball a bit also, but still don't like the rules.
By the way, slop evens out most of the time, if you play long enough. Part of the allure of 9 ball was because it was not
a call shot game. I've been playing a long time but never cared for the idea of call shot 9 ball. It's pretty much been the ball-in-hand rules that soured me, right out of the gate. As Ray Martin told me in the mid or late '70s, "Any idiot can hide the 9 ball, by accident or on purpose."
I play 10 ball a bit also, but still don't like the rules.
By the way, slop evens out most of the time, if you play long enough. Part of the allure of 9 ball was because it was not
a call shot game. I've been playing a long time but never cared for the idea of call shot 9 ball. It's pretty much been the ball-in-hand rules that soured me, right out of the gate. As Ray Martin told me in the mid or late '70s, "Any idiot can hide the 9 ball, by accident or on purpose."
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I agree
On another forum I suggested to Bob Jewitt, who was working on a clarification of the BCA(?) 9-ball rules, that they make 9 ball a call-shot game. I don't understand why anyone would argue FOR slop, but a few did.
Unless you are a boy under 12 (or a beautiful girl over 16
), there is no reason for slop in any pool game. My opinion.
It is interesting to note that when Willie Mosconi played Minnesota Fats on Wide World of Sports in 1978, Willie insisted they modify the normal rules of 9-ball so that it was call-shot for that tournament. Mosconi wanted to show Fats up as a loudmouth, and Mosconi slaughtered him in 8-ball, (modified) 9-ball and rotation.
Maybe slop in a game makes more bangers overconfident and more willing to risk their money. Most people I know who hate 9-ball hate it because of the slop. They hate to get burned by a lucky shot, and they hate to keep shooting because THEY got lucky. It always creates doubt...
But, I suppose that's why 10-ball was invented. Exactly like 9-ball but with (DUH) 10 balls, and you call ball and pocket.
Keep the crusade going. Until it changes, negotiate your own rule change or just play 10-ball instead. :thumbup:
On another forum I suggested to Bob Jewitt, who was working on a clarification of the BCA(?) 9-ball rules, that they make 9 ball a call-shot game. I don't understand why anyone would argue FOR slop, but a few did.
Unless you are a boy under 12 (or a beautiful girl over 16
), there is no reason for slop in any pool game. My opinion.It is interesting to note that when Willie Mosconi played Minnesota Fats on Wide World of Sports in 1978, Willie insisted they modify the normal rules of 9-ball so that it was call-shot for that tournament. Mosconi wanted to show Fats up as a loudmouth, and Mosconi slaughtered him in 8-ball, (modified) 9-ball and rotation.
Maybe slop in a game makes more bangers overconfident and more willing to risk their money. Most people I know who hate 9-ball hate it because of the slop. They hate to get burned by a lucky shot, and they hate to keep shooting because THEY got lucky. It always creates doubt...
But, I suppose that's why 10-ball was invented. Exactly like 9-ball but with (DUH) 10 balls, and you call ball and pocket.
Keep the crusade going. Until it changes, negotiate your own rule change or just play 10-ball instead. :thumbup:
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Both ways?
I have to disagree with those that think that slop goes both ways. I don't have any proof or stats to back my thoughts, but I've always felt that the lesser (sloppy) player, with lesser control of the table when he/she is playing is always more likely to sh$t something in as opposed to a player that can control the cb better.
However, I'm against eliminating slop in 9 ball with the exception of the 9 simply because of what I think the defination of the game of 9 ball is: The game of 9 ball is purely a run out game, so for every time you either fail to run out or leave the table locked up, then you should be punished with a loss by way of our oponnent running out, or by losing the game by some slop shot. Obviously I don't play at that level all the time, but my perception of the ideal way to play the game, is that your opponent should never be given the opportunity to slop anything in..........................period.
dave
I have to disagree with those that think that slop goes both ways. I don't have any proof or stats to back my thoughts, but I've always felt that the lesser (sloppy) player, with lesser control of the table when he/she is playing is always more likely to sh$t something in as opposed to a player that can control the cb better.
However, I'm against eliminating slop in 9 ball with the exception of the 9 simply because of what I think the defination of the game of 9 ball is: The game of 9 ball is purely a run out game, so for every time you either fail to run out or leave the table locked up, then you should be punished with a loss by way of our oponnent running out, or by losing the game by some slop shot. Obviously I don't play at that level all the time, but my perception of the ideal way to play the game, is that your opponent should never be given the opportunity to slop anything in..........................period.
dave
Ten-ball has been around a long time...not many played it. Ten ball came back strong because of Corey and everyone else that was smart enough to follow his soft cut break.
I don't know why they ever stopped playing call shot 15 ball rotation. When 9-ball came in I guess. Johnnyt
I don't know why they ever stopped playing call shot 15 ball rotation. When 9-ball came in I guess. Johnnyt
BTW, before the 9ball "Texas express" rules took over you had to call the 9ball and balls that went in on a foul or off the table used to be spotted.
8ball also had some changes in the rules in last few years...
I agree that a better player will have less slops but I guess the better player doesn't need them...
For two player at the same level it'll even up if the race is long enough.... which bring us to the real problem in 9ball, the races are just tooooo short! IF the race is long enough then the luck factor is becoming negligible.
8ball also had some changes in the rules in last few years...
Tokyo-dave said:
I agree that a better player will have less slops but I guess the better player doesn't need them...
For two player at the same level it'll even up if the race is long enough.... which bring us to the real problem in 9ball, the races are just tooooo short! IF the race is long enough then the luck factor is becoming negligible.
skor said:BTW, before the 9ball "Texas express" rules took over you had to call the 9ball and balls that went in on a foul or off the table used to be spotted.
8ball also had some changes in the rules in last few years...
I agree that a better player will have less slops but I guess the better player doesn't need them...
For two player at the same level it'll even up if the race is long enough.... which bring us to the real problem in 9ball, the races are just tooooo short! IF the race is long enough then the luck factor is becoming negligible.
I also agree that races are too short. A race to 7-9 in a game of 9 ball with winner breaks..................is like playing a game of basketball with the first team that gets to 20 points wins, and after each score you get to keep the ball. (I've heard that somewhere else, not my quote) Pool/billiards is the only game I can think of that the player that scores gets to keep the ball.
The reason the "Texas Express" (ball in hand on all fouls) was established was to make the 9-ball game go quicker, expressly for compacting the match into an hour time frame for TV.
Prior to TV broadcasting pool, the "old style" 9-ball game took longer and therefore the complaint about short duration matches wasn't a factor. Whether "slop" rules or not, IF all balls made with a foul were spotted, the next player had his choice as to whether to shoot again or pass the shot back to the player that made the foul. That makes the games take much longer. Also, the "Spot shot" from behind the line would be back in play.
If you would prefer to extend the game even longer, you could play call shot AND no slop, (perhaps even spotting the 9-ball made on the break), AND spot all balls pocketed with a foul.
Pool IS a game of skill....let's bring the rules back where they belong.....and get rid of the "Texas Express" rules!
Prior to TV broadcasting pool, the "old style" 9-ball game took longer and therefore the complaint about short duration matches wasn't a factor. Whether "slop" rules or not, IF all balls made with a foul were spotted, the next player had his choice as to whether to shoot again or pass the shot back to the player that made the foul. That makes the games take much longer. Also, the "Spot shot" from behind the line would be back in play.
If you would prefer to extend the game even longer, you could play call shot AND no slop, (perhaps even spotting the 9-ball made on the break), AND spot all balls pocketed with a foul.
Pool IS a game of skill....let's bring the rules back where they belong.....and get rid of the "Texas Express" rules!
When we get through fixing the rules to suit us here, let's go to the NBA and not let them count points if they go glass and didn't call it. When we're done there, let's go to tennis and call any ball that touches the net a dead ball. While we're at it, sometimes the ball comes off the line funny and it's hard to return, so let's consider any ball that touches the line to be out.
i have to agree, especially if someone slops in the 9 ball. There is no reason to play slop. It is suppossed to be a game of skill, not luck.
Slop certainly will not even out. A better player will not miss as badly as often leaving balls to clang around with one possibly going in.
Taking away the slop rule would alleviate many of the problems people complain about with 9 ball. There is absolutely no reason for any game to be played with slop, especially at the pro level.
Pushout,
I don't think the allure of 9 ball has anything to do with it not being a call shot game. It is the necessity of having to be precise, and only having one ball to play. Slop takes away from that. I have heard many older players complain about ball in hand in any game. I personally don't like the kitchen rule for any game, but that seems to be different between the last two generations in pool. The kitchen rule just creates the ability for lesser players to prolong a game by scratching when their opponents last balls are in the kitchen. Also, in 9ball, the kitchen would never work. You only have one ball to play. If it is in the kitchen, you would have no way of playing any real shot on it. Players should never be rewarder for scratching or slopping in a ball. The kitchen rule rewards scratching, and the slop rule in 9 ball rewards missing. Neither belong in the sport IMO.
Slop certainly will not even out. A better player will not miss as badly as often leaving balls to clang around with one possibly going in.
Taking away the slop rule would alleviate many of the problems people complain about with 9 ball. There is absolutely no reason for any game to be played with slop, especially at the pro level.
Pushout,
I don't think the allure of 9 ball has anything to do with it not being a call shot game. It is the necessity of having to be precise, and only having one ball to play. Slop takes away from that. I have heard many older players complain about ball in hand in any game. I personally don't like the kitchen rule for any game, but that seems to be different between the last two generations in pool. The kitchen rule just creates the ability for lesser players to prolong a game by scratching when their opponents last balls are in the kitchen. Also, in 9ball, the kitchen would never work. You only have one ball to play. If it is in the kitchen, you would have no way of playing any real shot on it. Players should never be rewarder for scratching or slopping in a ball. The kitchen rule rewards scratching, and the slop rule in 9 ball rewards missing. Neither belong in the sport IMO.
OK. Let's make pool race to 120 balls, if you're going to use the NBA or Tennis analogy. In either tennis or basketball, the one or two flukes that happen constitute less than 2% of the total score of the match. Example - Federer is beating up on Joe Blow, and he's pounding him 40-0. Joe Blow gets a fluke - it's 40-15. Joe Blow still needs to fluke a bunch more times to win the match. Basketball, the fluked basket is worth 2 or 3 points. Most NBA scores are over 100 points per game, so if the game is decided by 3 or less, then that fluke came into play. Now, take 9-ball. My opponent flukes the 6. He then runs the rack out. Then he BnRs the next rack. That fluke cost me two racks, plus whatever more he could put on me. Tennis and basketball are alternate possession games, 9-ball isn't.dchristal said:
1 rack in a race to 9 is 12% of what he needs to win the game. If the fluke allowed him to win that game, it's worth 12% of the total he needs to win. If the game of basketball was played to 100, and fluke shots counted as 12 points, I'm quite sure there would be a rule against it. Same with tennis. Imagine if a net shot or bad bounce was worth 3 games in the set it happened in. The ATP would have a rule against it too.
Good players rarely "slop" balls in. I've been watching 9-Ball for many a Moon and I keep seeing the best players get there in the end. It takes "Heart" to play 9-Ball! Luck alone won't get you there. 
You're correct Jay, unless you're playing a race to three.jay helfert said:Good players rarely "slop" balls in. I've been watching 9-Ball for many a Moon and I keep seeing the best players get there in the end. It takes "Heart" to play 9-Ball! Luck alone won't get you there.
P.S. Is the eight ball next week call pocket?
even good player's wins are decide by luck. Just about every match has a shot missed and the incoming player is penalized for the mistake and usually it makes the fortunate player feel like the match is rolling in his favor. I see it all the time in Pro matches. It's called 9 ball, not the roll of fortune. If the better player of the match is going to be decided then missed balls should come with a penalty of letting the incoming player to decide to play the shot or give it back. And what the heck is this stuff of combinations and the 9 on the break. Spot the nine and it must be made last like all the other games. Scratch on the nine and a spot shot from behind the line should decide the winner. With these changes the best player of the match will win.