A different perspective on the Mosconi Cup

[boogeyman]

Well, they certainly didn't act in the manner you portray when they had a tour. The BCA collects dues from its members to support industry, but the name of the group is BILLIARD CONGRESS OF AMERICA. All these years, they are supposed to be the North American representative of professional pool. If they had done their job, what the organization was supposed to do, things might look quite differently today, including the professional player.

Instead, they sold the league system, which could have been one mechanism to cultive pool, dropped the BCA Open tournament for pros, and to be quite honest, I don't understand what the purpose is of the group whatsoever. If it is to support industry members, fine. Then change their name to Billird Industry Members of America.

Currently, on another note, there's a cradle-to-prison pipeline going on in America. One out of every 100 Americans are incarcerated. One-third of American high school studentes will not recieve a high school diploma. The school of thought is to educate our children, provide them a decent environment to learn in, and let them grow up with a foundation to be somebody.

Same holds true for pool. Give the youth something to shoot for. Cultive new American professionals, instead of letting them scramble from coast to coast looking for crumbs to live off of, making savers at tournaments to survive, falling for the stupid Bonus Ball promises, dancing like monkeys, only to get stiffed. They're starved, hungry professional players with no future to look forward to. They're doing what they gotta do to survive.

You always speak from the heart and mind, JAM. I always appreciate your input when others blast the players.
Yes, when the pros were doing well (90s?) everyone was happy.
The bottom line is, however, a true test of character is when things are not going well.

Many posters on here are simply saying the one thing.
When given a chance to prove themselves on a worldwide scale (not talking about the pool skill) the players blow it.
They don't act like pros.

 

[Hungarian]

You're just a jerk. But to answer your question; TAR would fit perfectly in Europe. I'm going to go out on a limb and say TAR would have a higher caliber of professional players to draw from, not to mention how easy it would be to travel in the Asian players. Finally, higher caliber players would widen the target audience.

Really? Doing what?

 

[Hungarian]

Wouldn't sell

Would be cool to see Euro vs. Taiwan. Or Euro vs. Philippines.

 

[Hungarian]

Classic, how long did you work on that?

I like Thorsten 5th from the left best. He looks laid back

Maybe we can clone Thorsten a bunch and just have two teams of all Thorstens. Oh man... did you just get excited or what?!?!

^it's poorly done, but funny none the less.

 

[JB Cases]

So reality TV is the bar?

When did that happen?

When Big Brother and Survivor went on the air.

 

[sjm]

We were all witness to the savage beating the Euros delivered upon team USA. That's not what this thread is about. It's not about who won or who lost.

I think we can all agree that the Mosconi Cup is the mostly widely viewed TV broadcast for our sport, each and every year. It is watched by fans, other pro players and industry members alike. If you are interested in pool, its appointment viewing.

It took me a few days to put my finger on it, but there was something bothering me during these matches, beyond the disparity of the score. I watched and didn't like what I saw. It's safe to say that most of our industry members felt the same way. Coming from the American side, we oozed complete unprofessionalism. The teams body language conveyed contempt, entitlement and disinterest. The vulgar language was even worse. That the commentators had to, on multiple occasions, apologize to the viewers for this behavior, is incomprehensible. Then of course, there was Earl. He personally attacked his opponents, verbally, during multiple matches. He cheated, by intentionally sharking the other players. As has been said before, he embarrassed himself, his team, the promoters, the sport and his country. What made all of this look worse, if its even possible, is the exemplary behavior of the European team. They did everything right.

The point I'm trying to make is that the impression team USA made in public, was devastating. Who in their right mind would consider investing in American pool? Who would ever consider sponsoring anything pool related, after watching our "elite representatives" behave the way they did? Badi Nazhat just very recently addressed the problems of American Pool. Mark Griffin has as well. Those that understood what they were saying is that the problems center around unprofessionalism and disrespect. As the American pool scene crumbles around them, the players still refuse to head the warnings.

It is indeed a very sad day for American pool. Not because team USA lost. But because they continue in failing to learn from their mistakes.

Very well said Randy. Shane, by the way, behaves himself and has proper respect for both his sport and his opponents. He also happens to be the only member of Team USA that has a significant presence in international pool. through their play, the top Americans showed why they keep skipping the most prestigious events on pool's calendar.

Unfortunately, the result is that international pool fans see top American pool players not named Shane once a year and that's during the Mosconi. As you said, this was an opportunity lost. Losing to Team Europe is excusable, and so is getting demolished in the play, but poor demeanor is not, and this combination of poor play and poor conduct will surely hurt the image of American pool overseas, once again reducing the likelihood of foreign investment in American pool.

 

[thewhiffer]

I think the whole team should be blown up. Even Shane should have to fight for a spot.

I was talking to Griffin about this and he mentioned the talent pool is thin in the US how could you do a team without anyone on this years and my response was "How much worse could you do?"

Pretty evident to me Johnny is not a leader in this setting. All the Euros praise their coach endlessly as a big factor in their winning. Some people would call this an indicator.

As he sometimes (actually often) is, JCIN is right on. Johnny is not a leader in this setting.

The American talent pool may be thin but there is enough to win this event. What was lacking was chemistry and that is a result of poor (non-existent) leadership.

As a fan I love the Mosconi Cup and looked forward to this years match. I did not personally agree with all of the choices for the American team (yes to SVB, Hatch and Earl.....would have preferred Dechaine and Duel to round out the 5) but was in full support and optimistic.......for about 15 minutes.....and then was in full support and concerned.

In all professional sports there is a balance in terms of focus to be struck and maybe even more so in terms of golf and pool. You cannot allow yourself to get too high or too low. When I saw how pumped up the American players were at the start and then when they won their first game the ensuing rush from the stands of not only their team mates but some of the players family members (friends) and then their kids I started to worry about their focus. When I saw the team mates of those playing become so subdued when Europe won a game to start a comeback I sensed trouble. By the 5th game of the first match it was evident that leadership was needed and it was not there.

Contrast the controlled contact (support) that the European Captain and teammates had with the players that were in the match, whether winning or losing, making a great shot or missing a shot, with what was happening on the American side and it started to look bleak for the American team early.

My heart went out to the players of the American side. How debilitating must it be for them, each of them great players in their own right but clearly not able to turn it around. I waited for Archer to stop the kids and non team members from running down for the high fives, I waited for him to take any kind of control, show some early leadership but it just was not there.

As for the many comments on the language used by the players and on Earl’s behavior the Captain wears that too. Johhny Archer is very good at back room politics but is not a leader for an event like this.

Pick the right Captain (non playing) and I would match the team that I outlined above, Earl, SVB, Dechaine, Hatch and Duel against this European team without hesitation.

Jerry

 

[ironman]

I think the whole team should be blown up. Even Shane should have to fight for a spot.

I was talking to Griffin about this and he mentioned the talent pool is thin in the US how could you do a team without anyone on this years and my response was "How much worse could you do?"

Pretty evident to me Johnny is not a leader in this setting. All the Euros praise their coach endlessly as a big factor in their winning. Some people would call this an indicator.

Maybe each memeber should be asked,"Are you the problem or the solution"?
If not ready to be the solution, get rid of him!!

 

[cleary]

Classic, how long did you work on that?

Less than 5 min.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

I 100 percent agree with the OP, but I'd like to add a couple of other things that occurred to me while reading this thread. 1. Why should any pros (American or otherwise) be completely exempt from criticism just because they play pool? Criticism from fans is part of the deal in sports at any level. Have you seen ESPN lately or any sports talk show. It's the foundation of programming. We are the consumers of the product. No reason we shouldn't get a voice. Don't like it? Fine. No one has a gun to your head making you play pool (or any other sport) for a living. 2. Complaining about this criticism is ludicrous considering how small an insular the pool world is. For example if the American Ryder Cup team got mud stomped and had acted in the manner that some of the American Mosconi Cup team did the fallout wouldn't just be some people on a forum. It would be the biggest embarrassment/scandal news story in sports. Time to take a step back and get some perspective.

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[JAM]

I 100 percent agree with the OP, but I'd like to add a couple of other things that occurred to me while reading this thread. 1. Why should any pros (American or otherwise) be completely exempt from criticism just because they play pool? Criticism from fans is part of the deal in sports at any level. Have you seen ESPN lately or any sports talk show. It's the foundation of programming. We are the consumers of the product. No reason we shouldn't get a voice. Don't like it? Fine. No one has a gun to your head making you play pool (or any other sport) for a living. 2. Complaining about this criticism is ludicrous considering how small an insular the pool world is. For example if the American Ryder Cup team got mud stomped and had acted in the manner that some of the American Mosconi Cup team did the fallout wouldn't just be some people on a forum. It would be the biggest embarrassment/scandal news story in sports. Time to take a step back and get some perspective.

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I'm sensitive to this topic for a few reasons. Let me please provide an example of why.

Many moons ago, when I first met my other half, we were embarking on the professional tournament trail, which was quite foreign to me as well as him. He was more of an action player, and me, I had been away from the pool scene for many, many years, developing my career.

When we first started going to pool tournaments, I was thrilled and having the time of my life. I had to take time away from my business, which I regret today, in order to have the time to go to these cool pool happenings. I was literally on Cloud 9.

I also was new to posting on forums on the Internet. As a newbie, I learned quickly about forum culture. One unnamed pool Internet contributor wrote some unspeakable words about my other half. Not only were they outright lies -- and I am very careful when I use the word "lie" -- but they were extremely hurtful. I was enraged and went on a posting campaign to defend my other half, writing the truth, but it didn't matter what I wrote. This person took pleasure in demeaning him, disseminating his lies, and bragged about how much he thoroughly enjoyed "playing with his toys," as he put it, on the Internet.

A month or two later after this back-and-forth between me and the Internet contributor, me and my other half attended the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship in Virginia. I love that tournament. At the end of one of his matches, about a dozen folks came up to ask if my other half would sign their programs, give them an autograph, and/or allow them to take his photograph, to which he always complies without hesitation. He adores pool people, especially fans. Much to my shock, one of these persons standing in line was that Internet contributor that wrote the lies about my other half. It was all I could do to not to confront him, but I didn't. I just looked at this irony with disgust. Welcome to the wonderful world of pool on the Internet.

So you can compare pool to other sports, like golf, if you like, and I agree there are some similarities, but the pool community -- fans, enthusiasts, pro players, industry members -- is much smaller by comparison.

I am positive every single member of Team USA has already read the thousands of posts on this forum about the events of this week. I'm also quite sure they feel pretty wounded. What good does it do to continue to rip them apart? Of course, constructive criticism is always a good thing if it helps improve a bad situation. Don't you think there's been enough of that already on this forum, or do you believe we should all pool our funds together and take out a full-page ad in The New York Times to express our disdain for Team USA and announce to the world that they are a "disgrace," the popular word to describe them on this forum?

 

[Donny Lutz]

Blame it on the BCA?

While I appreciate the thread, reading these same thoughts over and over again is like pounding the members of Team USA with a hammer after they have lost. Don't you think they feel bad enough as it is? What else can be said after reading the hundreds of posts last night and today about what a POS the American pro is?

It is tragic that the state of pool is what it is here in the America, but there seems to be a caste system. The BCA members should be held accountable for letting professional pool die in the manner which it has.

You wonder why American pros are the way they are? Because there's no tour, no BCA support, no WPA support, nothing.

So while we can continue to verbally tar and feather the members of Team USA and other American pro players, it's not entirely the fault of these pros.

Nothing will change if we keep hammering in the same thoughts, stereotyping all American pros. If the American pros had something to shoot for, you'd see a different American pro. That's my perspective of the Mosconi Cup.

BCA needs to have their authority ripped away from them, and some new entity needs to take the reigns. When that unmentionable IPT came to the fore, the pros acted and dressed professionally. It's not so far-fetched to think that if they had something ot shoot for, they'd conduct themselves differently.

Blaming the problems with the American team on the BCA is typical. It's always somebody else's fault.

The BCA didn't make the Americans arrogant, obnoxious and disrespectful.

Some would say it's American culture...how many nations on earth must repeat a mantra like, "America is the greatest nation that ever existed" over and over on television every day. I should think such boasting would not be needed if it were true.

As I've stated before, I wouldn't have Earl (or several others) on the team because of their attitude. As the final days action began, before the first shot was taken, Earl was crying already. When Ralf glanced at the rack before breaking, Earl was up and complaining to the referee..."Why's he looking at the rack? Can he do that?" I think his teammates knew it was over at that point, and he proved them right.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

I am positive every single member of Team USA has already read the thousands of posts on this forum about the events of this week.

Do you know they read these forums for a fact? I would be surprised.

 

[JAM]

Blaming the problems with the American team on the BCA is typical. It's always somebody else's fault.

The BCA didn't make the Americans arrogant, obnoxious and disrespectful.

Some would say it's American culture...how many nations on earth must repeat a mantra like, "America is the greatest nation that ever existed" over and over on television every day. I should think such boasting would not be needed if it were true.

As I've stated before, I wouldn't have Earl (or several others) on the team because of their attitude. As the final days action began, before the first shot was taken, Earl was crying already. When Ralf glanced at the rack before breaking, Earl was up and complaining to the referee..."Why's he looking at the rack? Can he do that?" I think his teammates knew it was over at that point, and he proved them right.

Well, I guess I'm kind of glad that you are not involved in the decision-making process for the team selection process. :grin-square:

Neither you or myself are privy to what was said in the players meeting. Maybe -- and I don't know this to be a fact -- it was relayed to all Mosconi Cup competitors that they cannot question the rack. In Earl's mind, he could have thought Ralf was questioning the rack. I don't know. I wasn't there.

I'm not boasting that America is the best nation, but I am a proud American, and as such, even when my country is operating in activities that I believe to be wrong, I feel as though I must stand behind them. I'm not real happy about the continuing activities in Afghanistan today, but I support the troops because I am a proud American.

Was the behavior of the members of Team USA in poor taste? Yes, some of it was. That said, I'm going to look for ways to enhance American professional pool, rather than beat it down with a club in a never-ending brute-force attack until it's finally dead.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

JAM, I absolutely understand where you are coming from, but I think there are some important distinctions to draw in this case. This thread isn't about anonymous trolls making up false accusations against players. It's about a few well know members of this forum commenting on the poor conduct and lack of professionalism of some (not all) of the American team, a fact that can't be in dispute. This thread is not about criticizing their play or even the fact that they lost. (Even though I think even that kind of criticism is OK I'll give them a pass. Some days you're the windshield. Some days you're the bug.) This thread is about asking for and expecting a higher standard of behavior from our guys regardless of whether they are winning or losing. I don't see any harm in that.

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[JAM]

JAM, I absolutely understand where you are coming from, but I think there are some important distinctions to draw in this case. This thread isn't about anonymous trolls making up false accusations against players. It's about a few well know members of this forum commenting on the poor conduct and lack of professionalism of some (not all) of the American team, a fact that can't be in dispute. This thread is not about criticizing their play or even the fact that they lost. (Even though I think even that kind of criticism is OK I'll give them a pass. Some days you're the windshield. Some days you're the bug.) This thread is about asking for and expecting a higher standard of behavior from our guys regardless of whether they are winning or losing. I don't see any harm in that.

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There is nothing wrong with condtructive criticism, I agree, but when is enough enough?

My point is we should not be continuing to rip apart the American team at this juncture. I am positive they understand how this forum feels. Some may not give a damn, but I know some of them do care very much.

Again, I come back to the point of maybe all this energy we are exerting to criticize this year's Team USA could be put to better use by helping to improve the American professional pool scene. There are some who think they are not worthy and don't want to mess with it, and that's okay. They are certainly entitled to feel that way. I'm disappointed myself.

I just would like to see us move in a positive direction. I keep emphasizing cultivating our youth, to bring in new blood, but I don't even know if that's the answer. What I do know is I don't want to see American professional pool die. Maybe I stand in the minority on this sentiment, and if so, then so be it.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

You're just a jerk. But to answer your question; TAR would fit perfectly in Europe. I'm going to go out on a limb and say TAR would have a higher caliber of professional players to draw from, not to mention how easy it would be to travel in the Asian players. Finally, higher caliber players would widen the target audience.

And who ARE the target audience? Probably not Euros, definitely not British. It is always difficult to get across how small the game is here. I know it must be doubly difficult to understand this during trying times like this, when a few hundred enthusiasts generate more talent than millions of serious players.

I know little about TAR but I do know how easy it is for an Asian to spend another 6 hours on an airplane and continue onto New York, rather than get off in London. The world is small these days, and easily navigated.

Product, not location.

 

[voiceofreason]

We were all witness to the savage beating the Euros delivered upon team USA. That's not what this thread is about. It's not about who won or who lost.

I think we can all agree that the Mosconi Cup is the mostly widely viewed TV broadcast for our sport, each and every year. It is watched by fans, other pro players and industry members alike. If you are interested in pool, its appointment viewing.

It took me a few days to put my finger on it, but there was something bothering me during these matches, beyond the disparity of the score. I watched and didn't like what I saw. It's safe to say that most of our industry members felt the same way. Coming from the American side, we oozed complete unprofessionalism. The teams body language conveyed contempt, entitlement and disinterest. The vulgar language was even worse. That the commentators had to, on multiple occasions, apologize to the viewers for this behavior, is incomprehensible. Then of course, there was Earl. He personally attacked his opponents, verbally, during multiple matches. He cheated, by intentionally sharking the other players. As has been said before, he embarrassed himself, his team, the promoters, the sport and his country. What made all of this look worse, if its even possible, is the exemplary behavior of the European team. They did everything right.

The point I'm trying to make is that the impression team USA made in public, was devastating. Who in their right mind would consider investing in American pool? Who would ever consider sponsoring anything pool related, after watching our "elite representatives" behave the way they did? Badi Nazhat just very recently addressed the problems of American Pool. Mark Griffin has as well. Those that understood what they were saying is that the problems center around unprofessionalism and disrespect. As the American pool scene crumbles around them, the players still refuse to head the warnings.

It is indeed a very sad day for American pool. Not because team USA lost. But because they continue in failing to learn from their mistakes.

It was awful. Truly awful...

 

[Pathetic Shark]

JAM, I absolutely understand where you are coming from, but I think there are some important distinctions to draw in this case. This thread isn't about anonymous trolls making up false accusations against players. It's about a few well know members of this forum commenting on the poor conduct and lack of professionalism of some (not all) of the American team, a fact that can't be in dispute. This thread is not about criticizing their play or even the fact that they lost. (Even though I think even that kind of criticism is OK I'll give them a pass. Some days you're the windshield. Some days you're the bug.) This thread is about asking for and expecting a higher standard of behavior from our guys regardless of whether they are winning or losing. I don't see any harm in that.

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Well said. Denial isn't just a river in Africa. Some SERIOUS questions need to be asked about this and you may as well start now.

Put the kid gloves on and I guarantee you'll still be in this position in ten years time. This process will be brutal and if egos are bruised and reputations tarnished, so be it. The failure is systemic and there are no sacred cows.

I thought this was America?

As for where you go from here, can someone link me the threads started on this please?

 

[Joqpub4]

Expectations...

I've not read every thread on the MC and the American's performance… and I wasn't able to watch every match… But, I want to throw out a couple of comments.

1. Why is the hate/bashing so bad… We have high expectations for our team and they were not met. Heck, not even close… I didn't see the first day, but once that 5-0 train had left the building and the second day started felling the same way, the emotions of the players factored in. How much of pool is mental?? Yes, these are some of the best players on the planet, but they're playing people of equal stature… you just can't afford mistakes. They lose just a touch of their confidence and certainty to an equally skilled team and they tighten up and in a short race it can get ugly.

2. Leadership… sometimes there truly is nothing a leader can do. This looked like a team of individuals who were thrown together. That may (or may not) be true… but what I saw, that's the way it came across. My comment on this would be if they'd won the first day 5-0, I'd bet they'd have been a whole lot more 'team like' than they were… the situation plays into it.

3. Partners… People just play better with some people than others. Play in partners leagues and you see it all the time. Lefty/Lefty, people who play similar patterns, people who just flat out like each other… tend to play better together. Since so much of the match was scotch double partners, that needed to be part of the thought process when putting a team together (particularly if you can't have the same partner all the time).

4. and finally… I'm going to come back to expectations… What are the expectations that need to be met for the 'face' of the pro to the public. Real rules and guidelines. Whether it's attire, language, sharking, whatever… Earl may have an illness (I care as a person, but not as a competitor) but his performance in the last singles match was difficult to watch… the continual warnings with no consequences just fed the behavior. The penalties needed to be spelled out and enforced. Without any thought… the language or sharking… 1st offense - warning, 2nd offense - Ball in hand to the opponent, 3rd offense - loss of game - 4th offense loss of match. Somehow I think that would have changed behavior a bit.

Personally, I'm glad I got to watch the little bit that I did… It renewed my appreciation for really good pool and how good these guys really are. I've been on the losing end of a whitewash and it is hard to take emotionally (and physically to some extent), I feel for the Americans and congratulate the Europeans… the question to me always has been, how do you get off the mat and respond…. get back on that horse after you've been bucked off… you get the idea.

As a last thought… is there a Larry Ellison (America's Cup) who takes this personally and is willing (and has the resources) to step up and put together a Team USA that can preform as a team…

-Joe