A different perspective on the Mosconi Cup

[JoeyA]

We're all in this together.

Contempt, entitlement, disinterest, vulgarity, sharking, cheating, incorrect focus, and a lack of team camaraderie.

I added a couple of more items to your list. I'm not sure how fair all of these items are but I highlighted them in my trademark blue, because they deserve to be emphasized if for nothing more than the perusal of those in the this forum or by chance, members of the USA Mosconi Cup Team.

I am usually hesitant to pile on with negative criticism of the U.S.A. "professional" pool players because their life is not an easy one but I respect their journey and the difficult path they have chosen. It is with resignation that I agree with your post.

A few years back, Doug Gordon (a fine, respected European promoter/pool aficionado and friend of America) and I took it upon ourselves to write a CODE OF CONDUCT for pool players of all ranges. The chore wasn't taken lightly and Doug and I put forth some great effort.

It was published in the Sticky Notes of AZ Billiards for years but a few, loud, whiney babies from this very forum, cried unceasingly to the moderators and owners of this site, wailing about how it was useless, how it had no teeth and just wasn't relative.

Eventually the owners grew tired of these few whiners and removed the CODE OF CONDUCT from AZ Billiards. I mention this because it really isn't just the professional pool players who lack the will to build or carry themselves in the manner needed. A few unsavory people with mean-spirited vengeful agendas managed to coerce the very owners of this site into removing the CODE OF CONDUCT for pool players.

I have to concede that our CODE OF CONDUCT was merely a sign post for people involved with pool and that it had no teeth but instead of Americans pulling in the same direction, they managed to divert a harmless sign post over the cliff. The owners of this forum also have to be held responsible for allowing the patients to run the asylum. So you see it is not just the USA Mosconi Cup Team that has let America down. This self-centered, egocentricity runs throughout America and I'm not sure if there is any hope of anything changing.

Maybe as others have opined; "pool is what it is and doesn't need a face lift" and maybe that is true here in America; but sad nevertheless.

It sure seems that in other parts of the globe, pool is viewed in an entirely different manner.

My ideas about bringing in fresh, young talent, like Landon Shuffett has fallen victim to the European Mosconi Cup management perspective that the pressure would be too great for young, up and coming athletes.

And perhaps my silence and the silence of others, bears some responsibility as well. Thanks for starting this thread.

JoeyA

 

[mikeyfrost]

Moses smell the roses! Do you even know what "enabling" means? I'm not enabling a damn thing, and I'm not apologizing, either.

I don't think those players are worried about you one bit, FWIW. With fans like you, who needs enemies?

If you are not interested in professional pool surviving, fine, but don't denigrate othres who may want to see it progress in a positive direction.

Of course I know the meaning of the words I type and if I don't and want to sound cool, I just google it duh....

You're wrong though, players do worry about guys like me. Well correction, guys like I used to be. They definitely shouldn't worry about guys like me now though cause I absolutely am not worried about them at all. I'm the best kind of fan, an honest one. Ever since I rejoined a more civilized circle I realized a lot.

If you're totally unprofessional and in the public eye, you deserve it. No one makes you act the way you act besides yourself. If your performance is poor be accountable for that. The fact is these guys stunk it up and their will be no corrective action on either front. They no better yet choose not to do better. I only know a certain brand of people that make excuses, whine, and perform poorly.....losers.

My buddy James Roberts summed the Mosconi Cup up perfectly he said "Why is everyone so upset about the Mosconi cup? Both teams got what they wanted team America wanted that check and the Europeans wanted to win."

 

[mia]

I never said it is acceptable behavior. Sheesh! Come on, man. Surely, you can do better than this if you want to debate this subject matter.

FWIW, the BCA did screw 'em, not the billiard world.

Just continue to rip 'em apart until you get sick of gnawing on this topic. It's been overplayed. It's time to move on to a remedy to the existing state of professional pool, with or without Dennis, Earl, et al.

No. You never said it was acceptable. But you've spent the better part of the last 2-3 days justifying it by blaming the BCA for it and telling us all that we should lay off already.

Personally, I don't see people continuing to comment on it as excessive. If you act like an ass on a world stage, you should expect the world to treat you like an ass. Maybe the BCA DID fail American pool players. But at least two other men on that team certainly didn't act out in an unprofessional and immature manner. The actions of those 2 or 3 others can ONLY be blamed on themselves and themselves alone. They clearly didn't have enough respect for themselves, their opponents (in Earl's case), or the viewers to refrain themselves. So why should everyone else cut THEM some slack?

 

[JAM]

No. You never said it was acceptable. But you've spend the better part of the last 2-3 days justifying it, blaming the BCA for it, and telling us all that we should lay off already.

Personally, I don't see people continuing to comment on it as excessive. If you act like an ass on a world stage, you should expect the world to treat you like an ass. Maybe the BCA DID fail American pool players. But at least two other men on that team certainly didn't act out in an unprofessional and immature manner. The actions of those 2 or 3 others can ONLY be blamed on themselves and themselves alone. They clearly didn't have enough respect for themselves, their opponents (in Earl's case), or the viewers to refrain themselves. So why should everyone else cut THEM some slack?

I never justified a damn thing, but I did blame the BCA for allowing American professional pool to suffer. I did state that there was enough bashing threads on the forum already, you know, those like yourself who have spent the last 2-3 days bashing the Mosconi Cup Team USA members and pros in general.

 

[Quesports]

Contempt, entitlement, disinterest, vulgarity, sharking, cheating, incorrect focus, and a lack of team camaraderie.

I added a couple of more items to your list. I'm not sure how fair all of these items are but I highlighted them in my trademark blue, because they deserve to be emphasized if for nothing more than the perusal of those in the this forum or by chance, members of the USA Mosconi Cup Team.

I am usually hesitant to pile on with negative criticism of the U.S.A. "professional" pool players because their life is not an easy one but I respect their journey and the difficult path they have chosen. It is with resignation that I agree with your post.

A few years back, Doug Gordon (a fine, respected European promoter/pool aficionado and friend of America) and I took it upon ourselves to write a CODE OF CONDUCT for pool players of all ranges. The chore wasn't taken lightly and Doug and I put forth some great effort.

It was published in the Sticky Notes of AZ Billiards for years but a few, loud, whiney babies from this very forum, cried unceasingly to the moderators and owners of this site, wailing about how it was useless, how it had no teeth and just wasn't relative.

Eventually the owners grew tired of these few whiners and removed the CODE OF CONDUCT from AZ Billiards. I mention this because it really isn't just the professional pool players who lack the will to build or carry themselves in the manner needed. A few unsavory people with mean-spirited vengeful agendas managed to coerce the very owners of this site into removing the CODE OF CONDUCT for pool players.

I have to concede that our CODE OF CONDUCT was merely a sign post for people involved with pool and that it had no teeth but instead of Americans pulling in the same direction, they managed to divert a harmless sign post over the cliff. The owners of this forum also have to be held responsible for allowing the patients to run the asylum. So you see it is not just the USA Mosconi Cup Team that has let America down. This self-centered, egocentricity runs throughout America and I'm not sure if there is any hope of anything changing.

Maybe as others have opined; "pool is what it is and doesn't need a face lift" and maybe that is true here in America; but sad nevertheless.

It sure seems that in other parts of the globe, pool is viewed in an entirely different manner.

My ideas about bringing in fresh, young talent, like Landon Shuffett has fallen victim to the European Mosconi Cup management perspective that the pressure would be too great for young, up and coming athletes.

And perhaps my silence and the silence of others, bears some responsibility as well. Thanks for starting this thread.

JoeyA

Hey Joey, If you have a copy of your code of conduct and don't feel like posting it up please PM me a copy. I would love to read it, somehow I cannot recall reading it in the past..

 

[mia]

I never justified a damn thing, but I did blame the BCA for allowing American professional pool to suffer. I did state that there was enough bashing threads on the forum already, you know, those like yourself who have spent the last 2-3 days bashing the Mosconi Cup Team USA members and pros in general.

I never once bashed pros in general. I have respect for many a pro pool player. What I don't have a lot of respect for is grown men carrying themselves like toddlers with sour grapes and potty mouths. Especially when they're representing American pool.

But hey. The BCA screwed them and now they're bitter. And the Mosconi Cup is a lot of pressure, right? So cut them some slack.

...Again.
...For yet another year.

Then we can all meet up again this time NEXT year and rehash it once more. Sound good?

 

[JAM]

I never once bashed pros in general. I have respect for many a pro pool player. What I don't have a lot of respect for is grown men carrying themselves like toddlers with sour grapes and potty mouths. Especially when they're representing American pool.

But hey. The BCA screwed them and now they're bitter. And the Mosconi Cup is a lot of pressure, right? So cut them some slack.

...Again.
...For yet another year.

Then we can all meet up again this time NEXT year and rehash it once more. Sound good?

Oh, you never bashed pros in general? How does it feel to have your words twisted like you did mine? See how it works?

The pros don't give a hoot about the BCA; the BCA doesn't give a hoot about the pros.

I am simply pointing out the fact that if the BCA had done the job that they were given initially, a lot of the problems experienced in American professional pool may have never happened. A tour would have been created, a ranking system, et cetera, but this may be above your pay grade to understand. No matter what I write, I'm sure you will find a way to twist it up again to mean something quite the opposite.

 

[mia]

Oh, you never bashed pros in general? How does it feel to have your words twisted like you did mine? See how it works?

The pros don't give a hoot about the BCA; the BCA doesn't give a hoot about the pros.

I am simply pointing out the fact that if the BCA had done the job that they were given initially, a lot of the problems experienced in American professional pool may have never happened. A tour would have been created, a ranking system, et cetera, but this may be above your pay grade to understand. No matter what I write, I'm sure you will find a way to twist it up again to mean something quite the opposite.

Ok. How about we eliminate the risk for 'twisting words'. Do you think the way the majority of Team USA acted this year was unprofessional and embarrassing?

And if so, do you think they should be subject to criticism because of it or it should just be overlooked?

 

[JoeyA]

Hey Joey, If you have a copy of your code of conduct and don't feel like posting it up please PM me a copy. I would love to read it, somehow I cannot recall reading it in the past..

Sure, no problem. It was in the Sticky Notes section for a pretty long time.

PM me your email address as I don't want to force feed the CODE OF CONDUCT on anyone in this thread.

JoeyA

 

[justadub]

Oh, you never bashed pros in general? How does it feel to have your words twisted like you did mine? See how it works?

The pros don't give a hoot about the BCA; the BCA doesn't give a hoot about the pros.

I am simply pointing out the fact that if the BCA had done the job that they were given initially, a lot of the problems experienced in American professional pool may have never happened. A tour would have been created, a ranking system, et cetera, but this may be above your pay grade to understand. No matter what I write, I'm sure you will find a way to twist it up again to mean something quite the opposite.

Jennie, I agree with you often, and respect you always. Yet I wish to comment...

The BCA is no longer an issue. It hasn't been relevant for a long time. They dropped the ball, they don't represent US pool, they are not a factor. This is not news, and concerning ourselves with it will not affect change, either for the better or for the worse.

If professional pool in the US is to ever turn around, even a little, it will take a group effort. And it will require that those who want to consider themselves "pro's" should have to act the part, and represent themselves, and pool in general, in a positive manner.

It cannot thrive with such negative impressions. It simply cannot attract new people to the sport that way. Every time these guys step on their anatomy in public, they themselves contribute to their own demise. If they do not care enough to show some respect on live TV, there is nothing more that can be done with the existing lot of "pro" players. And remember, the movers and shakers of US pro pool are some of the ones involved . (Beyond Earl.) If the clique cannot get their own stuff together, they should no longer be the ones dictating terms and influencing desicisions.

It is a shame.

 

[JAM]

Ok. How about we eliminate the risk for 'twisting words'. Do you think the way the majority of Team USA acted this year was unprofessional and embarrassing?

And if so, do you think they should be subject to criticism because of it or it should just be overlooked?

Yes, I think the behavior of the members of Team USA was disappointing. In fact, I have written about it several times previous to this post on other threads, but for you, I will repeat it once more.

Shane Van Boening. I thought Shane was great. He didn't bring his best game with him to the table, as the Shane we all know and love, but he was fun to watch. In particular, my favorite moment of the entire Mosconi Cup was when Shane ran to give Earl a big ol' bear hug, seeing Earl in distress ---> HERE. Then during the after-match interview, Jim Wych speaks to Earl and Shane. After Earl gives his thoughts on the match that he just won as partners with Shane, Jim moves the microphone about 2 inches from Shane's lips and asks, "So what's it like shooting with Earl?" The pause and look on Shane's face was priceless ---> HERE.

Oh, gee, that's right. I'm only support to post about negative things about Team USA and the Mosconi Cup. Sorry, I forgot.

Earl happens to be a friend of mine, though I don't know him as well as Keith does. I can say that every time Keith has played against Earl in tournaments, Keith won't allow Earl to proceed to get enraged, but Keith has that effect on people. In fact, when Earl plays Keith, Earl actually is smiling and has a good time. :grin-square:

Dag nab it, there I go again not posting about those pesky Team USA members.

I know Earl, and I knew the very first day when photos were taken, the expression on Earl's face, that he was feeling the pressure. I also know the Earl wanted with all his being to have a good Mosconi Cup for America. He wanted to win. Unfortunately for Earl, with the exception of Shane, his other team mates seemed to be distracted, not putting forth their best effort to compete in this event. I'm sure that was frustrating as hell for Earl. He reacted to this frustration by speaking out to anybody and everybody who would listen. With his state of mind, this is how Earl handles frustration, but it is interpreted by most as he's a jerk-off freak of nature that needs to be beaten up to a pulp for his poor behavior. I don't see it that way. Did he misbehave? You betcha, but I know why.

Oh, and FWIW, out of all five Team USA members, Earl's pool shooting was the best, aside from his antics.

Johnny Archer was a playing team captain. He was so proud to be representing the United States. He brought his entire family to Vegas to witness what he hoped would be history in the making. His children were excited to see their father competing, and they wanted to join in the fun. Unfortunately, I believe their excitement and behavior in the stands was a distraction to Johnny, not allowing him to play his best game, much less be a captain. I admire Johnny as a good Christian family man, but I bevlieve if his family had not been there in the audience with his children running up and down the aisles, he would have played better pool. He didn't do anything offenseive on TV, IMO.

Rodney Morris has been in the pool world a long, long time. He's a warrior and survived many a pool battles. From the on-site accounts I have heard of the activities that transpired before Day One, I think Rodney may not have taken this Cup as seriously as his counterparts. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he was celebrating with buddies, looking forward to this cool pool happening. To some, saying the F word is commonplace in their vocabulary. I'm guilty of it with some people. Would I do it on national TV? Heck no. Rodney may not understand or practice good tableside pool etiquette, and personally, I think he needs a good woman -- ONE WHO WILL SLOW HIM DOWN -- one who will kick his butt and put him in his place. He's gone wild and needs to slow the heck down. He's no spring chicken anymore.

I do like Dennis Hatch and understand his personality is the product of his upbringing. I won't get into that, though, as that's not the topic of this thread. Yes, he did drop the F bomb numerous times, like Rodney, but like me, I don't think he realizes he's saying the F word sometimes. Of course, he shouldn't have done it on TV. Dennis had his entire family in Vegas to celebrate, and celebrate he did, before, during, and after. Therein likes the problem. Like Rodney, Dennis was not able to bring his best game to the table, even though he did make three 9-balls on the break.

Yes, the members of Team USA need to suck it up and take the criticism, but I do think that 1,853 posts in 3 days about this topic on the Main Forum is enough. What do you think?

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Yes, the members of Team USA need to suck it up and take the criticism, but I do think that 1,853 posts in 3 days about this topic on the Main Forum is enough. What do you think?

We may have multiple threads on variations of this topic but I'm not convinced that they are being read by the very people who need to read them the most. I'm not even sure that these players even care what other people think of their lack of sportsmanship, teamwork and especially their misconduct.

I think someone should email the OP to all of the members of Team USA, to ensure that everyone on the team knows how poorly they represented themselves and the team.

 

[JAM]

We may have multiple threads on variations of this topic but I'm not convinced that they are being read by the very people who need to read them the most. I'm not even sure that these players even care what other people think of their lack of sportsmanship, teamwork and especially their misconduct.

I think someone should email the OP to all of the members of Team USA, to ensure that everyone on the team knows how poorly they represented themselves and the team.

So you don't believe that Johnny or his wife, Shane and/or his relatives, Dennis and/or his girlfriend and relatives, Rodney and/or his girlfriend, or Earl and his ex-wife (publicity agent) read this forum? I beg to differ. :wink:

 

[mia]

Yes, I think the behavior of the members of Team USA was disappointing. In fact, I have written about it several times previous to this post on other threads, but for you, I will repeat it once more.

Shane Van Boening. I thought Shane was great. He didn't bring his best game with him to the table, as the Shane we all know and love, but he was fun to watch. In particular, my favorite moment of the entire Mosconi Cup was when Shane ran to give Earl a big ol' bear hug, seeing Earl in distress ---> HERE. Then during the after-match interview, Jim Wych speaks to Earl and Shane. After Earl gives his thoughts on the match that he just won as partners with Shane, Jim moves the microphone about 2 inches from Shane's lips and asks, "So what's it like shooting with Earl?" The pause and look on Shane's face was priceless ---> HERE.

Oh, gee, that's right. I'm only support to post about negative things about Team USA and the Mosconi Cup. Sorry, I forgot.

Earl happens to be a friend of mine, though I don't know him as well as Keith does. I can say that every time Keith has played against Earl in tournaments, Keith won't allow Earl to proceed to get enraged, but Keith has that effect on people. In fact, when Earl plays Keith, Earl actually is smiling and has a good time. :grin-square:

Dag nab it, there I go again not posting about those pesky Team USA members.

I know Earl, and I knew the very first day when photos were taken, the expression on Earl's face, that he was feeling the pressure. I also know the Earl wanted with all his being to have a good Mosconi Cup for America. He wanted to win. Unfortunately for Earl, with the exception of Shane, his other team mates seemed to be distracted, not putting forth their best effort to compete in this event. I'm sure that was frustrating as hell for Earl. He reacted to this frustration by speaking out to anybody and everybody who would listen. With his state of mind, this is how Earl handles frustration, but it is interpreted by most as he's a jerk-off freak of nature that needs to be beaten up to a pulp for his poor behavior. I don't see it that way. Did he misbehave? You betcha, but I know why.

Oh, and FWIW, out of all five Team USA members, Earl's pool shooting was the best, aside from his antics.

Johnny Archer was a playing team captain. He was so proud to be representing the United States. He brought his entire family to Vegas to witness what he hoped would be history in the making. His children were excited to see their father competing, and they wanted to join in the fun. Unfortunately, I believe their excitement and behavior in the stands was a distraction to Johnny, not allowing him to play his best game, much less be a captain. I admire Johnny as a good Christian family man, but I bevlieve if his family had not been there in the audience with his children running up and down the aisles, he would have played better pool. He didn't do anything offenseive on TV, IMO.

Rodney Morris has been in the pool world a long, long time. He's a warrior and survived many a pool battles. From the on-site accounts I have heard of the activities that transpired before Day One, I think Rodney may not have taken this Cup as seriously as his counterparts. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he was celebrating with buddies, looking forward to this cool pool happening. To some, saying the F word is commonplace in their vocabulary. I'm guilty of it with some people. Would I do it on national TV? Heck no. Rodney may not understand or practice good tableside pool etiquette, and personally, I think he needs a good woman -- ONE WHO WILL SLOW HIM DOWN -- one who will kick his butt and put him in his place. He's gone wild and needs to slow the heck down. He's no spring chicken anymore.

I do like Dennis Hatch and understand his personality is the product of his upbringing. I won't get into that, though, as that's not the topic of this thread. Yes, he did drop the F bomb numerous times, like Rodney, but like me, I don't think he realizes he's saying the F word sometimes. Of course, he shouldn't have done it on TV. Dennis had his entire family in Vegas to celebrate, and celebrate he did, before, during, and after. Therein likes the problem. Like Rodney, Dennis was not able to bring his best game to the table, even though he did make three 9-balls on the break.

Yes, the members of Team USA need to suck it up and take the criticism, but I do think that 1,853 posts in 3 days about this topic on the Main Forum is enough. What do you think?

Here's what I think. Had you answered my questions with the two sentences I've highlighted above with red type and cut out the 9 paragraphs of "but he's a friend" and "he was feeling pressure" and "product of his upbringing" crap that is completely unnecessary and reads as a series of long-winded excuses, there would probably be a lot less back and forth about this between yourself and several others on these threads. Those two sentences say "yes, I agree that they acted poorly". The 9 paragraphs in between read as excuses and defense of some friends, with the occasional smart-alec remark thrown in for good measure because, hey. That's your style, right?

 

[JAM]

Here's what I think. Had you answered my questions with the two sentences I've highlighted above with red type and cut out the 9 paragraphs of "but he's a friend" and "he was feeling pressure" and "product of his upbringing" crap that is completely unnecessary and reads as a series of long-winded excuses, there would probably be a lot less back and forth about this between yourself and several others on these threads. Those two sentences say "yes, I agree that they acted poorly". The 9 paragraphs in between read as excuses and defense of some friends.

I knew you'd pick and choose what you wanted, but when I make a disparaging statement, I want to provide my complete thoughts that back them up. You call them excuses; I call them fleshing out my opinon.

ETA: And I don't have to express my thoughts to suit your tastes, either.

 

[JAM]

...The 9 paragraphs in between read as excuses and defense of some friends, with the occasional smart-ass remark thrown in for good measure because, hey. That's your style, right?

And one more thing, none of those players know who or what the heck a "mia" is on this forum, but they do know who I am. I don't want to make a blanket statement about the caliber of play of Johnny or Shane or Earl or Rodney or Dennis without explaining why. You call this making excuses, but I call it letting the person know I am writing about why I wrote what I wrote, becuase I may run into them one day down the road. I don't dislike any of the members of Team USA, but I have explained my thoughts in a manner, so they will understand where I am coming from.

So you can take your little smart-ass retort and stuff it, "mia."

 

[mia]

I knew you'd pick and choose what you wanted, but when I make a disparaging statement, I want to provide my complete thoughts that back them up. You call them excuses; I call them fleshing out my opinon.

ETA: And I don't have to express my thoughts to suit your tastes, either.

You call it fleshing out your opinions. I call it being needlessly verbose in an effort to try and fool others into believing that you're doing something other than just making excuses for inexcusable actions.

They got outplayed. Big deal. That happens. There will be other MC events and I'm sure at some point, the US will bring the cup back home. But there is absolutely no denying OR excusing that they got outclassed. And why? Because several of these guys showed NO class. So why should the rest of the world sit back and adopt your "but cut them some slack" attitude? Because "he is who he is" and "he's a friend". That's just a foolish notion.

 

[JAM]

You call it fleshing out your opinions. I call it being needlessly verbose in an effort to try and fool others into believing that you're doing something other than just making excuses for inexcusable actions.

They got outplayed. Big deal. That happens. There will be other MC events and I'm sure at some point, the US will bring the cup back home. But there is absolutely no denying OR excusing that they got outclassed. And why? Because several of these guys showed NO class. So why should the rest of the world sit back and adopt your "but cut them some slack" attitude? Because "he is who he is" and "he's a friend". That's just a foolish notion.

There you go putting words in other people's mouths. :angry:

Your comments are a foolish notion. How about them apples?

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

So you don't believe that Johnny or his wife, Shane and/or his relatives, Dennis and/or his girlfriend and relatives, Rodney and/or his girlfriend, or Earl and his ex-wife (publicity agent) read this forum? I beg to differ. :wink:

Even if some of the players do read the forums, I don't think they really care. There's been no apology for their poor behavior, no evidence of contrition from anyone, and no one saying that things will be different next year.

Instead the strategy is to lay low and wait for the ruckus to blow over as it inevitably will. Then rinse and repeat next year.

 

[JAM]

Even if some of the players do read the forums, I don't think they really care. There's been no apology for their poor behavior, no evidence of contrition from anyone, and no one saying that things will be different next year.

Instead the strategy is to lay low and wait for the ruckus to blow over as it inevitably will. Then rinse and repeat next year.

I have to say I agree with you here.