A friendly discussion about A-joints

manwon

"WARLOCK 1"
Silver Member
[/B]

Ryan I do not think that the length of the pin will change much if anything. To my understanding when the tip hits the cue ball the vibration we call hit begins, it then moves at the speed of sound to the butt cap and then back to the cue tip, this movement is what we perceive as a cues hit. If at anytime this vibration is interrupted the vibration will be interrupted, the pitch of the vibration and the sound will be changed from bell like to a cracked or broken sound. This is why in most cases if something is loose on a cue it will sound like the difference in tone is coming from the cues tip or ferrule.

In my opinion so long as all parts of the cue are securely joined (Nothing is loose) the tone of the cues hit will not be changed by a long or short metal doweled screw at the A-joint.

JIMO

Craig,

I agree, but also disagree.

You are correct that the "sound waves" created by the hit travel up and down the cue at the speed of sound through that material.

However, I don't refer to those sound waves as what we call "hit". These sound waves are completely linear and they travel up and down the cue with no physical movement of the cue. They are also at a relatively high frequency. I don't believe that we can feel these waves, only hear them.

Also, when we hit the ball off center, the cue bends creating a physical wave or bending motion that travels down the cue. This is what we "feel", the side to side shaking of the cue in our hand. This "physical wave" is a much lower frequency than the "sound wave" and we can very easily detect it as well as small changes in the frequency or amplitude.

Obviously, most of us combine what we feel and what we hear into one thing, even though they are completely different.[/QUOTE]



Thanks for your perspective, and since you have broken it down the way you have done I totally agree with your view. I think I was trying say something similar to what you have said just not as clearly.

Thanks for the correction.
 
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ratcues

Theewen Custom Cues
Silver Member
A cue is the sum of each little part... yes, they all add up, but the way some people single out one aspect and assign such huge importance on it, is a little silly in my opinion.

Nobody has said anything to the contrary. My original question was 'how much importance to you put on the A-joint.' Give me your prespective, Sheldon, let's say as a percentage. How much importance is the joint pin? the A-joint? shaft taper? wood combinations? Richard Black once said 90% of the cue's hit is in the shaft and 90% of that is the tip. I love Richard and his work to death but I respectfully disagree.

My problem was determing the difference between two particular cues. One loved, one hated. He didn't say they were close, or it hit ok, he said he hated it. I have my ideas and wanted different perspectives on the topic. I feel that I, and I hope others, have learned something from this thread, regardless of how long they have been making cues.
 

Sheldon

dontneednostinkintitle
Silver Member
Nobody has said anything to the contrary.
I did not mean to imply that anyone did.
My original question was 'how much importance to you put on the A-joint.' Give me your prespective, Sheldon, let's say as a percentage. How much importance is the joint pin? the A-joint? shaft taper? wood combinations? Richard Black once said 90% of the cue's hit is in the shaft and 90% of that is the tip. I love Richard and his work to death but I respectfully disagree.

My problem was determing the difference between two particular cues. One loved, one hated. He didn't say they were close, or it hit ok, he said he hated it. I have my ideas and wanted different perspectives on the topic. I feel that I, and I hope others, have learned something from this thread, regardless of how long they have been making cues.
I couldn't tell you numbers. I don't think it's possible to pin them down with any real accuracy.
I would guess that in the difference between loving and hating 2 different cues, the A-joint is going to be a very, very minor factor. If at all. (Assuming solid construction for both...)
 

BLACKHEARTCUES

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, with some reservation. A stainless steel pin that's 4" long, 2" into each direction, won't allow hardly any flex in that 4" section, whereas a brass or aluminum pin would. How much affect it could have I couldn't say without guessing. Even a 3" pin would alleviate a lot of that tension. The reservation comes in with me thinking it would be too minor to notice.

Do you think that 2 flat faced surfaces, along with the tenon & screw, All of which are glued with epoxy, can FLEX? I think that the only ones that flex are the ones that break, at the "A" joint. Actually, they usually break near the end of the screw...JER
 

BLACKHEARTCUES

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
you would think the 1/2 pin would make a stiffer playing cue than the 3/8 pin.

If the butt doesn't bend, how can it make a STIFFER hit? I thought we agreed that 90% of the stiffness comes from the taper of the shaft & it's components...JER
 

BarenbruggeCues

Unregistered User
Silver Member
My problem was determing the difference between two particular cues. One loved, one hated.

Don't burn many brain cells up trying to figure this out. After you've built enough cues you'll find out, it is what it is.

Some time back I built a cue and put all my knowledge, heart and soul in to it that was with me at the time. Sent it to my dealer and it got sold. Two months later the buyer brought it back and said he wanted to trade it in because it was the worst cue he had ever played with. It's now with a player that claims it's the best cue he has ever played with in his whole career. Same cue, same tips, dirty shafts.....nothing got changed.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Do you think that 2 flat faced surfaces, along with the tenon & screw, All of which are glued with epoxy, can FLEX? I think that the only ones that flex are the ones that break, at the "A" joint. Actually, they usually break near the end of the screw...JER

Absolutely they flex. The ones that break are the ones not good enough to withstand the flex.
 

ratcues

Theewen Custom Cues
Silver Member
Don't burn many brain cells up trying to figure this out. After you've built enough cues you'll find out, it is what it is.

I'm not losing any sleep....at least over this. It is just a topic that came to head in the last week or so. I figured I better discuss it with the AZ family before I forgot.
 

ScottR

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Try this once and you might rethink how you feel hit. Wear some head phones, turn the music up really loud, and then hit some different cues.
Ears are way more sensitive than your hand. All the previously mentioned A joint techniques help vary the tone of the cue. I think the old timers did somethings not necessarily to improve the "hit" of the cue, but to over come some of the limitations of available products to use. And in the process, actually did improve the hit, or tone of the cue. Sort of accidental genius.

Along this line, I've tried practicing with earbuds and iPod and didn't like it. There seemed to be something important missing in the "hit", and it must be auditory. All shots "felt" dead. Weird.

Scott
 

GBCues

Damn, still .002 TIR!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Do you think that 2 flat faced surfaces, along with the tenon & screw, All of which are glued with epoxy, can FLEX? I think that the only ones that flex are the ones that break, at the "A" joint. Actually, they usually break near the end of the screw...JER

A very experienced engineer that I once worked with told me about a measurement system (laser based IIRC) that could measure the deflection in a concrete slab from when you dropped a dime on it. I had no reason to doubt him. So I think that all things flex, but maybe not enough to matter.

Just thought this was an interesting tidbit that came bubbling up from my memory. Not saying you're wrong.

My 2 cents

Gary
 

masonh

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If the butt doesn't bend, how can it make a STIFFER hit? I thought we agreed that 90% of the stiffness comes from the taper of the shaft & it's components...JER

not sure who agreed with you,but it definitely wasn't me.they definitely flex at the a-joint.
 

Lexicologist71

Rabid Schuler fanatic
Silver Member
Any of the thread sizes are fine in my books, I personally do not think that the hit of the cue will be effected using any of the screws you listed one way or the other so long as the A-Joint is properly constructed.

In my opinion many many factor's influence a cues hit, including the A-joint any one of which could make a cue have a unfavorable hit, even with that said what is considered a good hit by one person may be bad to another.

JIMO

DING DING DING. I like this answer best.
 

Joe Barringer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Quote:
Moving the center holes (within reason) at either end of the cue, during the true-up & tapering passes will keep the 'A' in the center. This is the same method that is used to true-up points.


If you have to do this after you have assembled/glued at the A, you need to go back and rethink your assembly process. You're doing something against yourself.
If it's because the cue has moved after.....you may as well chuck it in the circular file. I would almost bet it'll be a banana down the road...... not talking about a couple thou movement here.

Your fore points need to be running straight and true before the the attachment. If not, you've just compounded your problems after the glue up.
Making sure all the faces of the connecting pieces are at "absolute" 90 degree angles of the center line of all the pieces you are introducing to your joint is absolute critical or you will end up with some type of side pressure created in the cue.....aka...warpage down the road.
If you're confident you've done all of this correct and you're still ending up with a banana after the glue up, chances are you are crushing one or more of the faces by over tightening during the glue up.

As mentioned previously.......the construction process is probably more important than the style of your A.


Wow Dave - a very accurate and true statement. Obviously the poster of that statement is a novice. I know beginners who do it because they are learning and that's ok.

That's the problem with this forum is that we have a lot of beginners offering advice as gospel. Welcome to the internet.

And now for the monkey wrench.

Gentlemen,

The hit is certainly subjective and will vary by who is doing the building and who is doing the hitting. The tone and the "hit" can be altered in any cue after it is assembled and cleared. OK, so what am I saying? I think as someone said previously, a junk cue can hit fine with all its parts misaligned. We can take that cue and make it sound like a Tad or a Southwest. So, all this construction discussion is really moot.

Now, how can you alter the hit and sound after construction. Well, if some of you, and please this is not aimed at anyone in particular, would build, experiment and sell cues rather that be AZ's posting expert then you would know what we discovered years ago about a cues hit and sound.

And, no I am not going to reveal it. I will say this. You bring me any cue, and I'll change the hit and sound of it to hit like a totally different cue weather it's a high pitch tink or a low pitch thud or anything in between. And that gentlemen are all the clues and hints I am willing to offfer. Some of you may be able to figure it out from there.

Have a nice weekend.
 
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eddie0776

Bishop Cues
Silver Member
Just because I was bored and curious I cored a cue with phenolic through the handle. I made a segmented cue out of kingwood for the forearm and 3 birdseye maple sleeves with rings on the handle. The cue plays firm like I prefer but the phenolic is not as stiff as wood. Meaning its flexable side to side. The cue is a little heavy but I love it. I made a twin to it with laminated maple core and they play completely different with the same shaft. All of the wood came from the same batch of wood as well.
 

KJ Cues

Pro Cue Builder & Repair
Silver Member
Quote:
Moving the center holes (within reason) at either end of the cue, during the true-up & tapering passes will keep the 'A' in the center. This is the same method that is used to true-up points.





Wow Dave - a very accurate and true statement. Obviously the poster of that statement is a novice. I know beginners who do it because they are learning and that's ok.

That's the problem with this forum is that we have a lot of beginners offering advice as gospel. Welcome to the internet.

And now for the monkey wrench.

Gentlemen,

The hit is certainly subjective and will vary by who is doing the building and who is doing the hitting. The tone and the "hit" can be altered in any cue after it is assembled and cleared. OK, so what am I saying? I think as someone said previously, a junk cue can hit fine with all its parts misaligned. We can take that cue and make it sound like a Tad or a Southwest. So, all this construction discussion is really moot.

Now, how can you alter the hit and sound after construction. Well, if some of you, and please this is not aimed at anyone in particular, would build, experiment and sell cues rather that be AZ's posting expert then you would know what we discovered years ago about a cues hit and sound.

And, no I am not going to reveal it. I will say this. You bring me any cue, and I'll change the hit and sound of it to hit like a totally different cue weather it's a high pitch tink or a low pitch thud or anything in between. And that gentlemen are all the clues and hints I am willing to offfer. Some of you may be able to figure it out from there.

Have a nice weekend.

WoW, that was pretty clever Joe.
Obviously another attempt to elevate yourself through criticizing others and yet,
not offering anything of substance in turn to support your position.

Quote:
"And, no I am not going to reveal it. I will say this. You bring me any cue,
and I'll change the hit and sound of it to hit like a totally different cue weather
it's a high pitch tink or a low pitch thud or anything in between.
And that gentlemen are all the clues and hints I am willing to offfer.
Some of you may be able to figure it out from there.

Also quote:
"Obviously the poster of that statement is a novice."

Absolutely, I'm a novice. I make no pretense. I learn more everyday.
Sometimes, I even share what I've learned. Never said I was an expert at anything.
There are no experts, only novices and learners/students.
Once one proclaims to be an expert, they lose the desire to learn.
It's pointless because they already know it all. Good luck with that.

Since you chose to quote from my post, it's caused me to re-read it as well.
The absence of a few 'key words' may be causing you to mis-read my intent.
My bad.
David's post following mine was correct in that he was apparently thinking I was speaking of a 1/2 splice forearm.
I wasn't. I primarily build widows/pointless cues and that was also what I was referring to.
The topic was maintaining concentricity of the a-jnt. during the true-up pass.
Yes, I off-set the ends to maintain the a-jnt concentricity. You can do that on a widow. I still do it today.

Another bit of confusion may be from this: "This is the same method that is used to true-up points."
The 'key words' that I neglected should be inserted here: "on a sneaky-pete blank".
How else would you do it? This is the point where you get to SHARE if so inclined.
So again, David's post would be correct (if pertaining to a 1/2 splice F/A) in that the points would be
trued prior to connecting to the handle. Otherwise, you risk losing your a-jnt concentricity or your points.

'Novice', yeah, I can accept that because I'm certainly no expert. Just a lifelong student.

You have a nice weekend as well.

KJ
 
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Joe Barringer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
WoW, that was pretty clever Joe.
Obviously another attempt to elevate yourself through criticizing others and yet,
not offering anything of substance in turn to support your position.

Quote:
"And, no I am not going to reveal it. I will say this. You bring me any cue,
and I'll change the hit and sound of it to hit like a totally different cue weather
it's a high pitch tink or a low pitch thud or anything in between.
And that gentlemen are all the clues and hints I am willing to offfer.
Some of you may be able to figure it out from there.

Also quote:
"Obviously the poster of that statement is a novice."

Absolutely, I'm a novice. I make no pretense. I learn more everyday.
Sometimes, I even share what I've learned. Never said I was an expert at anything.
There are no experts, only novices and learners/students.
Once one proclaims to be an expert, they lose the desire to learn.
It's pointless because they already know it all. Good luck with that.

Since you chose to quote from my post, it's caused me to re-read it as well.
The absence of a few 'key words' may be causing you to mis-read my intent.
My bad.
David's post following mine was correct in that he was apparently thinking I was speaking of a 1/2 splice forearm.
I wasn't. I primarily build widows/pointless cues and that was also what I was referring to.
The topic was maintaining concentricity of the a-jnt. during the true-up pass.
Yes, I off-set the ends to maintain the a-jnt concentricity. You can do that on a widow. I still do it today.

Another bit of confusion may be from this: "This is the same method that is used to true-up points."
The 'key words' that I neglected should be inserted here: "on a sneaky-pete blank".
How else would you do it? This is the point where you get to SHARE if so inclined.
So again, David's post would be correct (if pertaining to a 1/2 splice F/A) in that the points would be
trued prior to connecting to the handle. Otherwise, you risk losing your a-jnt concentricity or your points.

'Novice', yeah, I can accept that because I'm certainly no expert. Just a lifelong student.

You have a nice weekend as well.

KJ



KJ...

Chill out. As best as I can read, it wasn't you who made the quote. Let it rest there. It was some obscure cue guy. And just FYI, if a person was whale turd at the bottom of the ocean, he would be by default elevated over many who do post here.

My post was meant to inform and not denigrate anyone. I'm sorry if you took exception. My post was to make people think on their own and work on their own to figure it out. People are lazy. If a child asks you how to spell a certain word and you provide the answer, he learns little. However, if you tell them to do the work and look it up on their own, odds are they will learn more and not forget it. Hence, my motivation to teach by doing rather than posting.

By doing you learn more and why things happen rather than posting and asking for everyone to do your work for you. When that happens you lose out of the learning and why things work certain ways. You also may discover something that you otherwise may never have found out.

This will be my final post as I do not have the time to play as many of you do. I have a business to run.

Have a great weekend.
 

pescadoman

Randy
Silver Member
KJ...

Chill out. As best as I can read, it wasn't you who made the quote. Let it rest there. It was some obscure cue guy. And just FYI, if a person was whale turd at the bottom of the ocean, he would be by default elevated over many who do post here.

My post was meant to inform and not denigrate anyone. I'm sorry if you took exception. My post was to make people think on their own and work on their own to figure it out. People are lazy. If a child asks you how to spell a certain word and you provide the answer, he learns little. However, if you tell them to do the work and look it up on their own, odds are they will learn more and not forget it. Hence, my motivation to teach by doing rather than posting.

By doing you learn more and why things happen rather than posting and asking for everyone to do your work for you. When that happens you lose out of the learning and why things work certain ways. You also may discover something that you otherwise may never have found out.

This will be my final post as I do not have the time to play as many of you do. I have a business to run.

Have a great weekend.

There are only a couple of whale turds here Joe. Most of them get ostracized eventually.
 
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