Ive been noticing that many of my assembled cues are moving slightly at the A joint. Ive been using dried and seasoned wood so thats not the problem. What Ive been is making a pass on my shaft taper machine and taking out the slight wobble and then letting it hang for a couple of weeks and taking a similar pass and again noticing a similar wobble. I try to do everying correct in attachment including tiny holes in the forearm for glue displacement. What I think the problem is is that i may not have my faces perfectly flush at assembly. I have always cut my tendons in my Buck chuck which is super tru. and similarly cut my hole in my forearm to accept the butt. I try to make these as tight and tru as possible but Im wondering if Im not holding the pieces perfectly straight in the chuck even though they look tru. I almost thinking a steady rest is the answer so I can make sure the piece is running tru. Saw Bob D's video and his was running pretty tru after he took a reading. I gotta get this right. Any ideas or comment would be appreciate. Thank you.
A Joint Miseries
- Thread starter kiinstructor
- Start date
Hi,
Are you indicating the piece to make sure it is running true? If you have any chuck run out you have to shim on the jaw that indicates the high spot. I like to use a tapered collet and use very thin paper to shim the collet. Then you have to chuck hard and re indicate.
Get a dowel pin and indicate it in your chuck before you do your next a joint or pin. That would be a good first move.
If your chuck is out you might want to dial it in first so you have minimum shimming. My six jaw is out.0002 and I still shim it. Delrin tapered collets are nice but the more you use them they are effected by the jaws. Before shimming just try readjusting the cue by rotating it and re chucking. If it is off just a hair you can bang the end of the jaw with a hard rubber hammer till it is running as close to zero as your standards allow.
Good luck.
JMO,
Rick
Non wax hot dog paper used for shimming jaw. When jaw is compressed hard on these very thin paper shims they compress and you can indicate zero. When doing your a joint take the time to indicate zero on you piece then do your facing, drilling, boring ext.
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Just to get a clear understanding of your situation. Are you saying that immediately following assembly and the adhesive sets that they are straight? Then after they cure and rest for a little while they are no longer straight at the A-joint? then you take a pass or two and true the entire length of the butt and once again they roll straight. But after they hang for a couple more weeks they are again out of line at the A-joint? Does this accurately describe your situation?
Thanks,
Todd
Thanks,
Todd
You mentioned that there is a tight fit with your A joint? If the fit is to snug slight glue pressure can cause wobble or the tenon soaks up a little glue and expands. Even 1 thousandth, if your A joint is very snug could cause wobble. This and Any chuck runout can cause issues. Everything must be lined up 100% or problems will come up.
What epoxy are you using?
What are the specs of your tenon?
What size are the handles when you assemble?
What are the specs of your tenon?
What size are the handles when you assemble?
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OK first off thanks for the replys. Its nice to see how helpful and considerate other cue maker are to share their ways. I use devcon 60 minute epoxy and I do indicate my piece in the chuck before cutting a tendon to fit to the forearm. I drill a hole in the tendon and use a 3/8 x 16 threaded pin as the attaching force. I likewise drill and tap the forearm to accept this piece. On both the tendon and inside the forearm hole which by the way is .750, I cut rings for further support as the glue dries. When I assemble the pieces they are alway out a bit. I glue them and tighten them together as far as they will go but there is always something off a bit. Not that much but enough. I have glue holes in the forearm to all both pin and tendon to fit snugly and allow glue to get out. I usually put some type of inlay over these holes. Anyway I let this cue for about a week and make a pass and its off. I take off the access with my taper machine and tru it up and sure as shttt the next time I make a pass its off again. Not always with every cue but one is enough to make me pull my cotton picken hair out.
1. Chuck that epoxy. Switch to a much slower kind . What's the hurry ?
2. Epoxy the 3/8 16 to one piece first and let it sit for a week .That way you only deal with hydraulic pressure and curing time on one piece at a time .
3. Leave the bottom ring some .003-.005 thicker. Glue the rings , make sure you have flat or notches inside so it doesn't spin. I suggest you bore the hole to .875 and keep the tenon at that instead. Reduce the tenon to .750 after the rings are epoxied.
Face off the bottom ring when epoxy has fully dried.
Now you're sure the rings are square.
Assemble them.
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A few IMHOs
1. Steady rest is an excellent idea,
2. You should check for "straightness" ASAP - it should be cured enough to handle
by the next day.
3. As Joey said - if you have rings at the joint, you must face them, glued in place,
before assembly - unless you slice them with a million dollar laser cutter.
4. If the butt runs true when first assembled, yet wobbles later on, I'm sorry,
that means the wood is moving... ORRRR the butt is straight but not round. You can
machine wood to .001 pretty easily - but it won't stay there.
Dale
I have had this same issue using well seasoned forearm and handle wood. I eventually realized that my headstock on my deluxe was not perfectly aligned with the bed. It took some time with dial indicators on both sides of the headstock and some brass shims to get it straight. (my deluxe is about 17-20 years old and I got it second hand). That was causing the facings to be out of line and slight tapering of deep bored holes, etc. I still get some issue at times, when I do use an A joint ( I now use a one piece core for the whole assembly) but it has been caused by the issue of over-tightening when gluing it together. The epoxy can work as a lube and when tightening the pieces together with it, you can actually over torque the joint and cause it to tweak it out of wack. I was raised with the idea, 'if it still moves slightly, keep tightening it'. I have found that to not be so good in cue building. I have also noticed that some woods swell when the epoxy cures, not sure why, but that's why I now use a full length core, avoids the issues all together.
Dave
Dave
Cue making is a constant learning curve. Im just trying to get some sort of dependable system. Each of your builders have some sort of tech that works for you. Seems that equipment alignment is a must in any situation. I built my Enco lathe from scratch. That is, it came in a box from the wonderful Mr. Leonard Bludworth. Not to my knowledge Im afraid and I was forced to learn the components of the machine ie bearings, gears and assembly. I was fortunate that enco had a schematic available for me so I had some idea of its assembly. Anyway I learned alot and thats probably fortunate for me. The more you know about your equipment the better I say. I know the chuck is dead on as I have a 3/4 hardened dowel pin that I indicate and its within .0002. but when I attached the ways to the headstock I had no idea about truing it up. I just though the holes in the stand were on for the ways. Ive got some serious aligning issues to correct. The steady rest is probably my salvation in that as long as the bed is straight and the piece is chucked in the Chuck which is dead on and held at the tailstock before tightening it in the steadyrest, I should be good to go. If I indicate the piece at the chuck and tailstock and thats on , I dont think I can be much more accurate. Thanks again for the advise and direction. AZ billiards is a wonderful source for direction and advice in cue building.
Chuck the A joint method. Fully core the butt with a 3/4 inch maple dowel and the problem is solved....... Why beat your head against the wall when there are methods that are simple and more reliable.
People will try to tell you that the hit is not the same on a cored cue. I can't find a difference when I hit with them.
Pick up a big name cue that has an A joint and roll it while leaning against the rail on a pool table. I find about half of them have a wobble....
Try an expensive SW cue and more than half wobble..........
Roll a cue that is fully cored........... you won't find as many....if any at all.. that wobble.... I have made 70 cues that are fully cored and glued with gorilla glue............. not one wobbles or moves after it is glued and cut................
Kim
People will try to tell you that the hit is not the same on a cored cue. I can't find a difference when I hit with them.
Pick up a big name cue that has an A joint and roll it while leaning against the rail on a pool table. I find about half of them have a wobble....
Try an expensive SW cue and more than half wobble..........
Roll a cue that is fully cored........... you won't find as many....if any at all.. that wobble.... I have made 70 cues that are fully cored and glued with gorilla glue............. not one wobbles or moves after it is glued and cut................
Kim
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We all our way if doing things be it inlay styles or a-joints. Thats why there are such a variety of cues and makers. Ask questions and find what works for you. Your on to a good start.
Best advice yet
RBC
Deceased
Sheldon and Jake hit the nail on the head. The chucking action can twist the cue off center and bow it.
Also, if it moves after cutting between centers, then the wood is moving. That shouldn't be a complete surprise. If your material is all at 1.300 then its more than likely that its going to move. Just because wood is old or has been dried for a long time does not mean that it doesn't have some stress left in it.
Royce
Turn your tenon a little oversize and short and bore the hole undersize and shallow and let them sit for 6 months or so before the final truing and assembly. That'll cut down the movement.