About to spend 5k - Diamond, Brunswick - advice welcome!

[TATE]

Diamond ProAm - low setup cost because of the one-piece slate, best bang for the buck and has a ball return, a $600 extra on a Brunswick.

But for the long haul - and more money - Gabriels Signature Pro - thicker slate, steel, no wood to warp rot or split. Also sold by Diamond.

Both Diamond and Gabriels use Artimis cushions.

- The Gabriels and Diamond Pro are both player's tables. If you go that route, I would contact Diamond and see what they have. I think they handle both.

- Concerning the ProAm - As far as one piece slate goes, do they need special equipment to move it? The slate must weigh 700 + pounds.

- The GC IV in my opinion can be set up to play as well or better by a top mechanic for about $800 more than purchase price.

- In terms of room decor, I like the furniture style tables. My Brunswick Gibson plays as well or better than anything out here but it was completely re-worked by a top mechanic. A great mechanic can make any table play great.

I bought the table used from Jay Helfert for under 40 cents on the dollar and it came completely re-worked with custom German rubber.

Here's a pic:

 

[av84fun]

thats funny you say that. i had one of the finest table mechanics in the midwest about two months ago leave me with the impression that the 3 piece slate system is far better than the one piece slate. this was a guy that Mark Wilson told me was one of the few people he would actually let work on his tables.

Genuine question. How can slate the happens to be cut into thirds be better or worse than slate that is not cut.

Does high quality 1 piece slate warp? Certainly 3 piece slate can and does move.

Just curious.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I bought the table used from Jay Helfert for under 40 cents on the dollar and it came completely re-worked with custom German rubber.
Here's a pic:
BEAUTIFUL!

Brunswick had perfect cushions in the Monarch cushions made in Chicago.
Then they went Chinese.
Nuff said.

 

[barker]

Moonshine

I grew up in Alabama when making or buying moonshine was how you got "likker". Distilling all the positive responses reminds me of that. What comes out *for me*:

- Some top players pool tables (no particular order):
-- Brunswick GC (place of honor due to heritage)
-- Diamond Professional
-- Gabriels Signature Pro

- That beautiful picture of the Brunswick Gibson make me salivate. Brunswick should replace their product literature, nothing they have on the Gibson looks that good!

- All of the above tables are better at being tables than I am at being a player. So any of them would give me all the chance to improve I could ask for. There are more similarities than differences in this group.

- I need to find an excellent set-up professional!

Having said that, *for me*, it's now clear I prefer a table with no metal at all (around pockets, medallions at the head, anywhere) on the rail. Also I like pockets flush with the rail.

Tight vs loose pockets to me fits in with 8 vs 9 ft. Pick what you want the table for, and choose. An 8 footer with tight pockets or any 9 ft table will be enough challenge for me for years to come. A 9 ft table with tight pockets might be too frustrating to me and those I will play with.

And I have to say, there is more to the form than just saying "furniture style" or "commercial style". There is a satisfaction from choosing and playing on a structure you admire.

It's surprising to me that *all* manufacturers that have moved to bolt-together construction (opposed to cabinetry-type glue joints) haven't already moved from wood to steel frames. I would prefer a proven steel frame to a solid wood frame. But that may be my ignorance.

Thanks to everyone for their contributions so far

 

[berlowmj]

cost efficiency

Hi - First post, I'll try to make it interesting. It is of the typical "I want to buy a pool table" variety. I have narrowed my choices down to a GC IV (probably used), a Diamond Professional, or a Brunswick Metro. I think all of these should be mainstream durable tables of high playability and longevity. My wife says "If we want furniture, we buy furniture. If we want a pool table, we buy a pool table." I love this woman!

Specific areas of interest:
- preferences among these 3
- obvious similar tables I may have missed
- specific comments on the Metro, since I have no playing time on it, in comparison to the other two
- if one stands out in either 8 ft or 9 ft (have room, haven't decided) in either good or bad ways

My assumptions and observations:
- I prefer the Diamond styling slightly above the other two, but any would be fine.
- The Diamond is all wood, the others are laminates (but so what, and laminates on what?)
- Is the slate on the Diamond Pro leveled by shims? What about the Metro? I know they have leg levelers.
- The Diamond and Metro would be new, the GC IV probably used, to put on an approximately even $$$. I've played on a GC V, but it is 9k in the 9 ft, and too new for sales / hefty discounts (according to the dealer).

I eliminated the Diamond Pro-Am since to me the ball return makes it look like a wooden bathtub, and no drop pocket version is available.

I eliminated the Olhausen Pro and any black laminate straight-apron tables since they are all ugly to my eye (for my home).

I'm talking to a local Brunswick and Olhausen dealer and cruising craigslist and the want ads.

Any advice would be welcome!

Unfinished antiques provide the greatest quality for the money. Many people discard high quality antique tables & trade them in for something "new" to match a remodeled room or house. These are the people who reject Oriental rugs that do not match their color scheme.

 

[asiasdad]

Gibson by Brunswick

I grew up in Alabama when making or buying moonshine was how you got "likker". Distilling all the positive responses reminds me of that. What comes out *for me*:

- Some top players pool tables (no particular order):
-- Brunswick GC (place of honor due to heritage)
-- Diamond Professional
-- Gabriels Signature Pro

- That beautiful picture of the Brunswick Gibson make me salivate. Brunswick should replace their product literature, nothing they have on the Gibson looks that good!

- All of the above tables are better at being tables than I am at being a player. So any of them would give me all the chance to improve I could ask for. There are more similarities than differences in this group.

- I need to find an excellent set-up professional!

Having said that, *for me*, it's now clear I prefer a table with no metal at all (around pockets, medallions at the head, anywhere) on the rail. Also I like pockets flush with the rail.

Tight vs loose pockets to me fits in with 8 vs 9 ft. Pick what you want the table for, and choose. An 8 footer with tight pockets or any 9 ft table will be enough challenge for me for years to come. A 9 ft table with tight pockets might be too frustrating to me and those I will play with.

And I have to say, there is more to the form than just saying "furniture style" or "commercial style". There is a satisfaction from choosing and playing on a structure you admire.

It's surprising to me that *all* manufacturers that have moved to bolt-together construction (opposed to cabinetry-type glue joints) haven't already moved from wood to steel frames. I would prefer a proven steel frame to a solid wood frame. But that may be my ignorance.

Thanks to everyone for their contributions so far

Got to admit that table Chris got from Jay is what I would have gone for had I not found an Anniversary (what the Gibson is patterned after) to restore. Granted the Anniversary has metal castings, and I do prefer the sleek lines of the Gibson for most home applications.

In my case, I wanted my home room to have the feel of an old time pool room, and to do that I have chosen what I believe to be the best old time table out there.

When it comes to your home, you are absolutely correct that you need to enjoy looking at that table you select as it will be calling out to you everyday as it commands an entire room of your home .

That is why I brass plated the castings on my Sport King, and had the aprons (skirts) reworked. I would be quite content with my Sport King had it not been for the fact that a table mechanic friend of mine needed some help in buying 5 Anniversary's and gave me a deal I could not refuse,

So I now find myself trying to find someone to brass plate those big aluminum bands on the base of the Anniversary as well as the castings to soften the "commercial" look for my personal taste.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=82971

Enjoy your new to you table.

Danny

 

[Bigdogbret]

I love my Diamond Pro Am and would never trade it for a GC IV. A couple of my buddies have them and there is no comaprison. Diamond is the best table out there.

 

[iba7467]

So what you are saying is - "Gold Crown's are for banger's and Diamonds are for "real" players"??

No, only that Diamonds are certainly not for bangers. Feel free to test this, pick any two bar bangers and put them on both tables. Then time how long it takes them to complete one rack of nine ball on both. The pro cut of the diamond pockets and the depth of the shelf are murderous to players who never hit the center of the pocket.

My post was certainly not a slight to Gold Crowns or anyone who owns them. This comes from an exact conversation that I and two other friends had before purchasing our tables. It was the unanimous consent that any non-pool playing friends would not get much joy playing on a Diamond, but that is what we all bought anyway.

 

[9 on the snap]

Now, the world don't move to the beat of just one drum,
What might be right for you, may not be right for some.
A man is born, he's a man of means.
Then along come two, they got nothing but their jeans.

 

[TheBook]

Both tables are great.

Wood rails will get a lot of dents in them from the players slamming or placing the chalk down. This may be something that may sway you to a plastic laminate.

Ball returns are noisy and to me not as convenient as drop pockets. You have to wait for the ball to travel to the end of the table and then fish it out. This is really a pain when the cue ball drops. With drop pockets you just walk over take it out. It is also a lot easier when you are practicing shots. You can store the balls in the pockets and not on the table.

 

[BPG24]

No, only that Diamonds are certainly not for bangers. Feel free to test this, pick any two bar bangers and put them on both tables. Then time how long it takes them to complete one rack of nine ball on both. The pro cut of the diamond pockets and the depth of the shelf are murderous to players who never hit the center of the pocket.

I can attest to this... A pool hall that I used to go in everyday replaced a few GC3's with Diamond Pros and the weaker player hated them... We would have rated tournaments (race to handicap) and if 2 lower rated players met, it took forever for the match to finish...

I personally love the Diamond Pro. They play great, you can't hurt the Dymondwood, (dings, dents, etc) and they make you better because of the pro cut pockets... Almost forgot ; the plush leather tops of the pockets are nice as well, no cleaning rubber off of your shaft

 

[cueandcushion]

For 5k I would call Diamond directly and see about a tournament used table. Brunswick tables have gone down hill in the past few years when they started making the parts in Brazil, Mexico, and China. I just purchased a new Diamond Pro with Dymondwood rails and love it. I would rather have a Diamond than a Brunswick for 1/3 the price. Although they (Brunswick) have a long history, the company has not been involved in pool for a while now. Diamond is still supporting the pool community and still working to make it better every day. For future purchases for my billiard parlor, it is no longer even an argument of what table is better. Good luck with your purchase, no matter which you pick. At least you are spending a realistic amount of money to have quality in your home.

 

[SCCues]

Diamond tables

Brunswick has been known to use sub par slate from Brazil that cracks and chips, even on their GC's

also, 3 piece cannot compare to one piece,

Are saying a Diamond 9' table is a one piece slate? If it is I had no idea that they used one piece slates on a table that large. I wonder how much a piece of slate that large weighs?

James

 

[Russ Chewning]

Are saying a Diamond 9' table is a one piece slate? If it is I had no idea that they used one piece slates on a table that large. I wonder how much a piece of slate that large weighs?

James

Yes, I believe it is the Diamond Pro/Am that is one piece.

My table mechanic (realkingcobra on the forums) has a special dolley he used to bring it in my house unaided. One person install, baby!

Russ

 

[NoBull9]

Brunswick not supporting pool any longer since when.

 

[Fatboy]

My table mechanic (realkingcobra on the forums) has a special dolley he used to bring it in my house unaided. One person install, baby!

Russ

he installed my diamond, and did a great job. He is gonna come back in a few months and might put green 860 on it, the blue is just too bright for me, I might get used to it, I like the speed of the blue cloth, its in between 860 and 760.

one thing you dont see much of is guys running 6 packs on Diamonds, its been done but not like it was in the 80's on the GC's. Its a great table for both 9 ball and one pocket, on a GC you have to shim up the pockets for 1P. Also there has been so many guys out there modifying gc's they are different from room to room, that hasnt happened to diamonds....yet, there could be 2 reasons. First they are all new and havent needed any work done on them or second they are fine the way they are. there has been some talk of the cushons on them but nothing serious.

Again buy a Diamond

 

[JohnInNH]

Hi - First post, I'll try to make it interesting. It is of the typical "I want to buy a pool table" variety. I have narrowed my choices down to a GC IV (probably used), a Diamond Professional, or a Brunswick Metro. I think all of these should be mainstream durable tables of high playability and longevity. My wife says "If we want furniture, we buy furniture. If we want a pool table, we buy a pool table." I love this woman!

Specific areas of interest:
- preferences among these 3
- obvious similar tables I may have missed
- specific comments on the Metro, since I have no playing time on it, in comparison to the other two
- if one stands out in either 8 ft or 9 ft (have room, haven't decided) in either good or bad ways

My assumptions and observations:
- I prefer the Diamond styling slightly above the other two, but any would be fine.
- The Diamond is all wood, the others are laminates (but so what, and laminates on what?)
- Is the slate on the Diamond Pro leveled by shims? What about the Metro? I know they have leg levelers.
- The Diamond and Metro would be new, the GC IV probably used, to put on an approximately even $$$. I've played on a GC V, but it is 9k in the 9 ft, and too new for sales / hefty discounts (according to the dealer).

I eliminated the Diamond Pro-Am since to me the ball return makes it look like a wooden bathtub, and no drop pocket version is available.

I eliminated the Olhausen Pro and any black laminate straight-apron tables since they are all ugly to my eye (for my home).

I'm talking to a local Brunswick and Olhausen dealer and cruising craigslist and the want ads.

Any advice would be welcome!

No need to shim a diamond, they have leg levellers, I've had my diamond for six years now, diamonds are forever, get a diamond, there is nothing better out there.

John

 

[Russ Chewning]

Brunswick not supporting pool any longer since when.

I think what is meant is in comparison to what Diamond has been doing:

Greg from Diamond asked the pro players to tell him what they wanted in a table, and he did it. I am pretty sure Brunswick has been well aware for years that players don't like getting rubber on their cues. They did absolutely nothing about until they had competition.

Diamond provides special deals for tournaments that use Diamond tables, and help the promoters sell the tables afterwards.

The people at Diamond actually get really INVOLVED at their events. I dunno, but I can't really see one of the top three Brunswick dudes sweating an action match at a major tourney.

If I am not mistaken, Diamond has been the driving force behind the DCC. Brunswick could give two sh*ts less about helping out men's pro pool. You can say what you want, but Brunswick was built off the backs of top players way back in it's beginning days. Adding 20K-30K to a few male pro events per year would be a drop in the bucket to them, and might have been worth the cost to negate some of the ill will towards them now.

Brunswick is one of two top table manufacturers now, in a time period when competitive pool is really suffering. Brunswick has done everything they possibly could to "clean up" the sport. Well, guess-frickin' what, Brunswick? America doesn't want "clean" pool.

Brunswick, by holding on to some goody-two-shoes image of the game, may have done quite a lot to hurt the game itself. I know a lot of people on the board have been brainwashed into thinking that if we somehow make all the players stop gambling, and stop any "hustling" on sitcoms from tarnishing the image of the game, then everything will be all hunky-dorey.

It ain't so. Diamond is getting back to the spirit of the game with the Derby City Classic, and Brunswick meanwhile is shooting itself in the foot. That's the whole reason why Diamond as a company was able to become so successful in such a short amount of time.

Regular Joe WANTS to see someone get hustled! That's why the movies Color of Money and The Hustler were so popular! Thank gawd for Diamond Billiard Products, for without them, the game we know and love might die a quick death!!!

Russ

 

[JohnInNH]

Green or Blue doesn't matter but please don't put 760 cloth on there if you want to ruin your 9 ball game go ahead but, use 860 instead you'll be glad you did.

John

 

[Fatboy]

I think what is meant is in comparison to what Diamond has been doing:

Greg from Diamond asked the pro players to tell him what they wanted in a table, and he did it. I am pretty sure Brunswick has been well aware for years that players don't like getting rubber on their cues. They did absolutely nothing about until they had competition.
Russ

He is still consulting top players and lesser players, we had lunch for almost 2 hours the other day at the Mosconi Cup, he is gonna be making more changes to the table. Its not my business to tell the world what he is up to but he will be tweaking this table for years. Its the persuit of perfection for him not the $$$, his heart in in the 9' product and this is supported by the 7' products success. He will never stop trying to build the perfect table, where Brunswick is just trying out how to maximize profits in china, however I did play for an hour or two on the GC5, its good but I like Diamond tables better, infact he shot my nuts off playing on a table he sold me .