ABP boycotts Berhman's event

I wonder how many pros will never get a sponsorship without the US Open. Think of John Schmidt...

If all of the players were paid within one month of the Open or less, I don't see it as a big deal. The players should pretend they went two and out instead of spending the money before they have it.

If your employer was supposed to pay you on the 1st of the month and he told you on the 1st of the month that he wasn't going to pay you until the 30th, you would be ok with that? Especially if you had just spent a large sum of your own money on hotel & travel expenses for that business?

FWIW, some players waited years (the plural is not a typo) to get paid, not one month. I haven't heard recently but heard within the last year that at least one was still unpaid from a few years ago. That might be cleared up now, I haven't been able to confirm that yet.
 
If your employer was supposed to pay you on the 1st of the month and he told you on the 1st of the month that he wasn't going to pay you until the 30th, you would be ok with that? Especially if you had just spent a large sum of your own money on hotel & travel expenses for that business?

FWIW, some players waited years (the plural is not a typo) to get paid, not one month. I haven't heard recently but heard within the last year that at least one was still unpaid from a few years ago. That might be cleared up now, I haven't been able to confirm that yet.

When I was in the Marine Corps, there were times when I didnt get paid for 2 or 3 weeks pas due (46/60 months spent outside the US so they kept having to change my pay...and of course that led to admin mistakes). Did it suck? Yes, but I only spent what I had.

What happens if these people spend all this money on a travel and hotel and go 2 and out? Even if it takes a few weeks they get paid, which is better than a big fat goose egg. And its not like Barry is telling these people **** you. He is doing what he can.

I love how people keep "hearing" that Barry owes people from past Opens. What I would love to hear are the names and ammounts owed. Otherwise this is just like listening to the bullshit seeping forth from CNN. Lots of rumor but no facts.
 
Actually.....

Last year Barry promised the ABP to have the money in escrow BEFORE the event started. Remember that he promised to have it all brought out in cash World Poker Tour style to show everyone?

Didn't happen and I am guessing that there are still some unpaid players from last year's event which is why we are where we are.

Charlie Williams was also right to do what he did. The US Open was also the catalyst for the UPA to be formed. The UPA unfortunately made a lot of mistakes in how they handled things.

It's a very simple equation. Regardless of what the promoter's situation is there is a very real obligation to PAY the players when they finish the tournament. The players should not have to worry about or care how much money they promoter has spent putting on the show. They are the actors, they show and perform for the crowd and expect to get paid.

Everything else is nonsense and fluff.

Greg Sullivan and Mark Griffin have been putting on tournaments for about 15 years now.

Has anyone ever heard one single complaint about players not getting paid by them?

I haven't.

Not only that Mark personally stepped in to get the players paid for an event he didn't even have anything to do with.

So all this love Barry bullshit is bullshit. He does put on a good show and I have enjoyed each one. But this yearly dance around paying the players is really not good for anyone.

Actually....

Your post has some loose accusations or assumptions based on little or no facts, on your behalf.

You shouldn't assume that there are some unpaid players. Either they've all been paid or they haven't. It's not a gray area, unless you make uneducated assumptions. You make that assumption of fact and continue to make comments based on that assumption, like saying that "Charlie Williams was also right to do what he did". IF you meant that Charlie was right to do that based on players not getting paid, then you are basing your opinion on potentially wrong facts. In otherwords, an impulsive knee jerk reaction.

My biggest issue is the way the ABP/UPA is going about handling things. Essentially, this is the classic "labor vs. management" standoff. The biggest problem is that in modern day labor negotiations, there are many tools used to try to resolve grievances. Specifically, there is collective bargaining. Typically, a strike is the last step taken when all other negotiations have broken down.

Has the ABP attempted collective bargaining? how many times have they went to the bargaining table? Have there been any concessions from either side?

If not, then all we have is a weak attempt at extortion or, at very least, strong arm tactics that rarely wrok out, in the long run.


Eric
 
I love how people keep "hearing" that Barry owes people from past Opens. What I would love to hear are the names and ammounts owed. Otherwise this is just like listening to the bullshit seeping forth from CNN. Lots of rumor but no facts.

It is up to the players whether they want their names mentioned or not. There are some people on here that are good friends with quite a few of the pro players and are privy to a lot more than the general public on the forum. The quote below from Sam is very similar to what my friend went through.

I'll NEVER apologize to a man who I personally know to have told one player that he wasn't going to get a dime of the $1500 he owed him if he continued to bad mouth him after the said player had already waited over three months for payment! Behrman needs to straight up apologize to every single player he's taken advantage of and quit feeding professional pool players his line of BS every year about how sorry he is and how it's never going to happen again! I'm not even close to "the line" with my comments and anyone who knows a player that's ever dealt with him financially will tell you the exact same thing!
 
It is up to the players whether they want their names mentioned or not. There are some people on here that are good friends with quite a few of the pro players and are privy to a lot more than the general public on the forum. The quote below from Sam is very similar to what my friend went through.

How many "Friend of a Friend" Stories have we heard about this. Much less the truth reguarding these stories. There are 3 sides to each story. The complaintant, Defender, and Truth. All we have heard is vague complaints.
 
How many "Friend of a Friend" Stories have we heard about this. Much less the truth reguarding these stories. There are 3 sides to each story. The complaintant, Defender, and Truth. All we have heard is vague complaints.

This is not a friend of friend this is a friend (the player) to a friend (me). All you and some others on here have heard might be vague complaints but there are others here that know a whole lot more. This is one of the major drawbacks when one of the dirty little secrets that has been known for ages in the pro industry finally breaks out onto the forum scene. For some people this is all news to them, or they only know about the very little that has been publicized. Ignorance is bliss and when it comes to the pool world, most on here are ignorant of the stuff that goes on behind the scenes in the pool world and they're lucky for it. Those of us more familiar with some of the "secrets" are jaded to put it nicely.

This situation didn't arise because Barry has been the perfect promoter. It also isn't the first time this has come up. There is a lot of history here and a lot of the newer members are not aware of all that has gone on in the past.

I'm going to retire from this debacle and just watch it unfold from afar. Regardless of how it all turns out, it will be interesting to watch.
 
If your employer was supposed to pay you on the 1st of the month and he told you on the 1st of the month that he wasn't going to pay you until the 30th, you would be ok with that? Especially if you had just spent a large sum of your own money on hotel & travel expenses for that business?

FWIW, some players waited years (the plural is not a typo) to get paid, not one month. I haven't heard recently but heard within the last year that at least one was still unpaid from a few years ago. That might be cleared up now, I haven't been able to confirm that yet.

I'm self-employed just like the players and I'm CONSTANTLY waiting on someone to pay me money owed. I have bait stands and buyers I sell to routinely that can't pay until they sell the product. I've already paid my workers, fuel, expenses etc... before getting this money too. Would I rather have the money up front? Of course, but I'd rather get it late than no income from them at all. Once in a while I get burned but I have to deal with it.

I wish Barry would just tell them ok, I'll have the money up front but it will be far less added. Just like the guy earlier posted, if you want the money up front, it will be 40% less than previous years and past winners will pay their own way now. Now, instead of one guy not getting his $1500 because he got into a pissing match with Barry, Mika will only get 60% for his US Open win. See how they like those apples.
 
I'm self-employed just like the players and I'm CONSTANTLY waiting on someone to pay me money owed. I have bait stands and buyers I sell to routinely that can't pay until they sell the product. I've already paid my workers, fuel, expenses etc... before getting this money too. Would I rather have the money up front? Of course, but I'd rather get it late than no income from them at all. Once in a while I get burned but I have to deal with it.

I wish Barry would just tell them ok, I'll have the money up front but it will be far less added. Just like the guy earlier posted, if you want the money up front, it will be 40% less than previous years and past winners will pay their own way now. Now, instead of one guy not getting his $1500 because he got into a pissing match with Barry, Mika will only get 60% for his US Open win. See how they like those apples.


In my line of work, its the same way. Sometimes I have to wait 3-6 months to get paid. I've been working this current freelance gig now for 4 months and JUST got my first check (for my first two weeks). Proper money management saves me. I'm not gonna go nuts on them for money cause I would rather keep getting work and they can pay me when they pay me. I know I'll get paid.
 
I'm self-employed just like the players and I'm CONSTANTLY waiting on someone to pay me money owed. I have bait stands and buyers I sell to routinely that can't pay until they sell the product. I've already paid my workers, fuel, expenses etc... before getting this money too. Would I rather have the money up front? Of course, but I'd rather get it late than no income from them at all. Once in a while I get burned but I have to deal with it.

I wish Barry would just tell them ok, I'll have the money up front but it will be far less added. Just like the guy earlier posted, if you want the money up front, it will be 40% less than previous years and past winners will pay their own way now. Now, instead of one guy not getting his $1500 because he got into a pissing match with Barry, Mika will only get 60% for his US Open win. See how they like those apples.


Well said.

If these pros want things to run perfectly, they better learn to shoot 64s at Oakmont.

Pool is pretty much like chess tournaments (or something similar). The promoters running these events aren't rich and aren't posting money. Do the players get air-barreled? Sure. If there are 10 major tournaments in the U.S. (there aren't, but let's just say), maybe 1 or 2 could meet the demands of the ABP.

The ABP should be out finding pool sponsors that could help the promoters versus boycotting events that have been running since before I was born.
 
By keeping it quiet to us "regular" people, they have only served to shoot themselves in the foot. If nobody knows there is a problem, when you bring it to public opinion, people are gonna think you are embellishing details.
 
The whole system of adding money is going to leave someone feeling cheated. Be it the players or the promoter. Just depends on how successful the tournament was. But normally, someone is going to feel cheated.

You have to add money to get the players and you have to make money to make that money back and hopefully, a profit.

If Barry adds $50k to a tournament, he sure as hell better make that money back or he's gonna get stuck. Only so many times you can lose money before you hang it up and quit. That's not even including his other expenses like the convention center, tables, staff, security, insurance, god only knows what else. People lose sight of the small details that add up, especially over time.

See, not many people are going to run a tournament cause its fun. A promoter is trying to profit. Why would anyone risk $100,000+ to HOPEFULLY break even? Its silly. Just like a professional player isn't going to the us open to hopefully break even. You gotta pay that rent, car payment and girlfriends boob job bill!

I don't think the players really add that all up sometimes.

Now lets say the tournament does real good and the promoter profits, now the players feel screwed out of money. They put up $500 to play... play well for 3 day and miss out on the money... or even cash but lose paying for meals and hotels.

Its a double edge sword and both people got it rough. Until there are major sponsors (don't see that train coming soon), its gonna be a tough battle.

The best thing for Barry to do is figure out how much money HE is guaranteed to make based on years past and add a percentage of that. Yea, may be a lot less but its money he knows he will make. Why roll the dice and add money you might not make back?
 
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BRILLIANT! I feel the same way about all professional athletes who bemoan their fate, while making seven figure salaries. And very healthy ones at that! There are many pro baseball, basketball and football players who will earn more in one year then most working stiffs earn in their lifetime! This is why when I hear their complaints about their working conditions, I turn a deaf ear and have no desire to support them by buying tickets to see them play.

Who are the 7 figure pool players please?
I never heard of this 7 figure stuff before, and I try to pay attention.
 
Smart???

From 1997 thru 2007 I had attended the US Open as a spectator.Looking at it from that point of view it was always a top shelh event. I know the year of the Hurricane along with the year of 911, it was tough going for Barry B. I know some of the players were unhappy the payouts were reduced while others understood and remained loyal.The real problem seemed to be one player in particulare whose inflated ego was hurt by not being invited to a private discussion with Barry, Earl, and Ralf Souquet. He instituted demands and boycotts for several years and a few players listened to him before coming to their senses and realizing no was beating thier door down to put on tournaments for them.If you are flat out getting stiffed and not getting paid then i understand but if that is not the case you ( the players who signed this boycott) must realize you are not in the NFL.Killing off a long standing tournament does you and the game NO GOOD AT ALL. You are getting some very bad advice.Think this thru if you care about your sport.
 
It's kind of sad to read all the so-called "words of wisdom" on this thread coming from some who truly don't have a clue what it takes to put on an event as large as the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship.

To compare a salaried, purchase order or W2-type income to a pool player's mode of earning a living is not a good analysis. They're as different as the Starship Enterprise members and Klingon aliens.

Barry Behrman is not a bad guy; he's trying to make something happen that's positive for pool as a whole. It's true he needs to reevaluate his business model for holding this tournament, but I sure as heck hope he doesn't take heed to some of the contributions to this thread.

As far as the players who haven't gotten paid, well, that's a given that this is wrong, wrong, wrong, but there's a way to handle things in matters such as this. And a boycott isn't the remedy.
 
Nice one!

If there is so much profit in pro tournaments how come there are so many 1st annuals that are never heard from again?

If the product is so profitable why don't the players just do it all themselves? I dont pay graphic artists or video editors. I learned to do it myself so I can keep that money. My stuff isnt perfect but it allows me to function. ABP would just have to do basically the same thing only with creating and promoting events. Then outside promoters if they wanted to have pro players would have to meet or beat what they make on their own.

Also most events I have seen the players, especially the top guys get treated pretty damn good. People do what they can to help them out. Its not like they are kept in a basement and trotted out to perform then thrown back in chains. The people putting these events on, for the most part, really like pro pool and the players. The problem almost always is people over reach trying to do too much.

I'm in total agreement with you that one of the largest problems in the business is promoters and sponsors biting off way more than they can chew with high expectations and big dreams getting in the way of proper business sense and turning the results into a very painful situation for both sides of the fence.

I honestly believe Mr. Behrman has always had the best intentions, but his repetitive slow pays aren't acceptable in any way. Whatever financial adjustments he has to make to manage the expenses of the event and achieve the ability to pay the competitors immediately must be accomplished if a U.S. Open is to continue at all.

As far as profitability within the tournament world? Don't we all wish that was the case. The marketing plans of the typical railbird is that pool can be sold to the general public and that there is plenty of money to be made off of it, but the proven fact is that without substantial corporate money being dedicated to the sport it will never be profitable financially. The target market just isn't present and it's a pipe dream of selling pool to the masses like you do a pair of Nikes! The current viewer base is all there is. It's just not feasable that a 30 yr old channel surfin' couple, who aren't actively involved in the game, will stop on ESPN to watch any of the games we love regardless of what's being played or by what rules. The women will always be more successful in creating a slight margin of new customers due to the fact that they are a more attractive product physically and they conduct themselves in a professional manner in the public eye. People need to quit trying to "clean up" the game to suit the imaginary target audience cause it just isn't there. Embrace the game for what it is and seek sponsorship from within the industry or products that those who participate in the game actually use, i.e. cigarettes (LOL), beer, whiskey, trendy clothing companies, etc... Sorry, but I gotta say it...what the hell does Ashley furniture have to do with pool? Jussayin'! I'm sure the guys at Galveston appreciated the sponsorship, but were both parties actually satisfied in their objectives? I don't know for a fact, but I'm wondering.

I also agree with you that as a majority the players are treated with much respect at events. I'm not saying that there is some jerk kickin' them around and saying "dance monkey dance", but as with anything the more hands you have in the cookie jar the more crumbs get on the ground. Everyone is fighting to get their "share" of money, but the end result always seems to be the actual players getting the short end of the stick and haven't they earned the right to be paid like what they are, the best cue wielding entertainers on the planet? I think so.

All I know is that a ripple of change is trying to create itself and I hope that it makes it through the storms and improvement can be acomplished for all parties. We all WANT the same thing, but the path isn't all that well lit because it hasn't been realized yet. I'd love to see the financials on the Guiness Tour actively kickin' it over in Asia. Maybe someone will quit being stubborn and ask those who are making it happen for some advice. Learning is hard, but knowledge is the key to any business venture isn't it?

By the way, thanks for all you do personally for this game man! I remember watching your first stream at the DCC and just wanting to slap all the railbirds upside the head when they started talkin' trash about how Brian Jones had no chance of giving Billy Incardona weight at one-pocket...yeah, Brian got the dough and eyes were opened as is always the case. I wasn't about to jump in and knock his action though...oops, I just did didn't I. Just thought it was entertaining. Anyway, thanks and best of luck in all you do. We'll all be watching and appreciating from afar...
 
From 1997 thru 2007 I had attended the US Open as a spectator.Looking at it from that point of view it was always a top shelh event. I know the year of the Hurricane along with the year of 911, it was tough going for Barry B. I know some of the players were unhappy the payouts were reduced while others understood and remained loyal.The real problem seemed to be one player in particulare whose inflated ego was hurt by not being invited to a private discussion with Barry, Earl, and Ralf Souquet. He instituted demands and boycotts for several years and a few players listened to him before coming to their senses and realizing no was beating thier door down to put on tournaments for them.If you are flat out getting stiffed and not getting paid then i understand but if that is not the case you ( the players who signed this boycott) must realize you are not in the NFL.Killing off a long standing tournament does you and the game NO GOOD AT ALL. You are getting some very bad advice.Think this thru if you care about your sport.

Very nicely stated. Tap, tap, tap.:cool:
 
Who are the 7 figure pool players please?
I never heard of this 7 figure stuff before, and I try to pay attention.

Why would their be a 7 figure pool player? How??? Have you been to a baseball game? 70,000 people buying tickets to 81 home games buying $6 hotdogs and $9 beers.

Or have you been to the US Open 9ball championship with 300 people for 7 days buying $6 hot dogs and $9 beers?

Kind of a different crowd.
 
I think the ABP should run their own events. Problem solved.

Oh wait... if they ran their own events, they'd have to boycott them per their own charter.

Ain't that something? :confused:
 
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