Advice in establishing a Straight Pool League

D

Danny Harriman

Guest
Hello all,

I am going to start a 14.1 league at the "Side Pockets" in Blue Springs Missouri. I would greatly appreciate any advice or suggestions people have from their experience in such a league.

Especially about a handicapping system, How to initially set the players handicap for the new league, and a good system to maintain a fair handicap.

Thanks for your time,

Danny
 

pete lafond

pete.l@slipstic.com
Silver Member
Danny Harriman said:
Hello all,

I am going to start a 14.1 league at the "Side Pockets" in Blue Springs Missouri. I would greatly appreciate any advice or suggestions people have from their experience in such a league.

Especially about a handicapping system, How to initially set the players handicap for the new league, and a good system to maintain a fair handicap.

Thanks for your time,

Danny

I have played in two different leagues in the past which both handicapped differently.

1. used a Pro, A. B , C and D player groupings. I liked the way this one was set up because of less paperwork.

Examples;
Pro plays an A the game is 150 to 100
A plays a B the game is 125 to 100

You can gauge this and change it based upon the level of players playing.

2. used an inning count where the player enters a check mark each time at the table, a safe check is also used. Count the innings less safes where no balls were pocketed and divide into the total pocketed for the game. This is a running average.
To set up a match, divide the lowest averge by the highest one and then multiply it times the game (race to 100 or 150, what ever the game is to). Next multiply it by 115% to create a better variance so that the weaker player must play slightly betterin order to win. This becomes the weaker players ball count needed. Like any other system this one is easy to sand bag in.
 

Snapshot9

son of 3 leg 1 eye dog ..
Silver Member
I am glad you asked ...

too much complexity in handicapping systems is a self-defeating move. Keep it simple. If it was me, I would:

1) Establish an average based on first 4 times playing. (you forgot to mention how many weeks the league session is).
2) Since there is not a lot of luck involved, but knowing that lessor players can significantly improve at a faster rate, than those at the top, I would handicap it at 90%. That is fair, but it still leaves trhe impression to lessor players that they have to improve their game to win, which, IMO, is in keeping with the spirit of the sport. Danny, you know Bob Owen of Shurtz Cues, here in Wichita, he was involved with a 14.1 league here on 9 footers.
I am sure Bob might have a few suggestions. Email him at
  • Bob@Shurtzcue.com

I also, would when scheduling matches, schedule the top half of the league players to play each other in the first half, likewise have the bottom half play each other, in SUCCEEDING SESSIONS. I think it would help prevent sandbagging in the league. I also would award a monetary reward for the highest average (could be MVP award). Plus, it is hard to maintain interest if the weekly fees are too much more than bar league fees.


And when are you going to qualify for the IPT? You are much too good of a player not to.
 

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member
Dan

like I said in the PM I sent you, equal offense would be very helpful in establishing an initial handicap system.
 
A

a_susie_cue

Guest
You can try to contact Dave Liggons at On Cue Billiards in Grayslake, IL (Formerly known as Cue N You). He has been really involved with strait pool for quite some time now and runs tournaments and I think some leagues too.
 

Rich R.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Danny Harriman said:
Hello all,

I am going to start a 14.1 league at the "Side Pockets" in Blue Springs Missouri. I would greatly appreciate any advice or suggestions people have from their experience in such a league.

Especially about a handicapping system, How to initially set the players handicap for the new league, and a good system to maintain a fair handicap.
Danny, IIRC, there is a very good straight pool league in Cincinnati and there are at least one or two members, or former members on this forum. Hopefully, one of them will chime in, when they see this thread.
 

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
Straight Pool leagues in Chicago

Danny:

There are three straight pool leagues in the Chicago area that I know about. The grandaddy of them all is the league at Illinois Billiard Club set up by Jim Parker about 30 years ago. We had 26 players last session and we're off for the summer. He set the format up which has been copied by the others.

Red Shoes in Alsip has had one quite a few years being run by John Lavin. When he was younger, he played at the IBC. Red Shoes 14.1 league had 4 players recently that had 100 ball runs at some point in their lives: John Lavin, Ed Latimer, Bob Cozzolino and George Fels.

I don't know how they did it when they first started but when I started, Lavin had me play Latimer and he pegged me at a 50 handicap meaning my goal is to get to 50 before the other guy gets to his number. Fels, Lavin and Latimer were between 140 and 160 at the time. I guess the lowest people started around 35 or so. You play 2 matches each week, split and both guys remain the same. Lose two, you go down five and the other guy goes up five for the next week.

We also started another league at ProTyme in Orland Park this summer when IBC took a break and we are in the second session and have 16 players. When we started the ProTyme League, we set Latimer as a 125 (a little low in retrospect) and figured out the other guys in relation to him.

Give John Lavin a call if you want and ask him as he has had a lot of experience running a league. I know you know him because I saw you talking to him when you were playing in his one pocket and bank tournament a year or so ago. You played banks with Latimer, too, as I recall.

(RED SHOE BILLIARDS 12009 S. Pulaski Rd ALSIP, ILLINOIS 60658 (708) 388-3700)
 
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Williebetmore

Member, .25% Club
Silver Member
Danny,
I'm a straight pool fanatic, I'll help however I can.
Our league has been continuously in operation for over 50 years, so at least it works. I've sent you a PM with more info than this, you could just ignore this post.

Ours is a handicapped league. We have 18 players (9 tables in the poolhall) of varying abilities, playing in a round robin format. Each player will play each other player one time. There is a “position round” halfway through the season, and at the end of the season where you play the person just above or below you in the standings (#1 plays #2, #3 plays #4, etc.) – so you will end up playing 1 or 2 opponents twice during the year.. Standings are based on won-loss records (with total # of balls made as the tie-breaker).

The matches are EVERY Thursday night – players join the league for the WHOLE season (not just a few nights here and there). Once you are in the league, you are in until you quit or die (any poor sports are encouraged to quit or we kill them). Make-up games are allowed at any time, but must be made up before the position rounds in the middle and at the end of the season. One of our pro's missed 6 straight weeks, but made up all of those matches in 2 days right before the end of the season. We bend over backwards to make it attractive for the pro players.

All matches are played to 100. The poorer players have higher handicaps. The poorest players who can’t run balls at all are in the 50-60 handicap range. The best amateur players are in the 0-10 handicap range. The pro’s are in the -70 range (negative 70). If my handicap is 10, and I play a 60 handicap player, you just subtract the 10 from the 60 and I spot him 50 balls. He starts at a score of 50, I start at 0, and we play to 100. If I play a negative handicap player it’s a little different. Our top pro's handicap is -70 (negative 70). I would start at my handicap of 10, the pro would start at -70. Therefore I would have to score 90 balls to get to 100, and the pro would have to score 170 balls to get to 100. The pro must score at least 70 balls to “get up to zero”, then another 100 to win. Only the balls after the initial 70 to “get out of the hole” count towards the pro's total balls for tiebreaking purposes. All matches end with the winning player at 100; it makes computing standings a breeze.

With this handicap system, you can mix top pro’s with feeble players and STILL have great matches. When these guys need only 40 balls and you need 170, you have to play hard from the very start to beat them – it’s a LOT of fun.

The initial handicaps are set by the league director. I agree with Blackjack that 10 racks of Equal Offense would be a great help in setting them initially – you could do it the first night of league, 2 players per table, alternating racks. Our handicaps are changed over a 20 week average, so you would not be able to use our system the first year. Handicaps are skewed a little towards the better players, set about 75% of the true difference. If the better player plays his best, he will usually win; if he slacks off much he will lose. If you set yourself at about -60 to -80, and the good amateurs around 10, and the hackers at 30 – 50; then you can’t go wrong.

The league director has a Handicap Committee to discuss things with; but it runs so well now, that there is never any need for it. If you win a match, they look at how you did 20 weeks ago and adjust up or down. A new league just needs someone like you to be the “dictator”. Just set the initial handicaps based on the Equal Offense results. Then adjust the handicaps every week or two. After a year you will know exactly where everyone should be (new players can then just be compared to the ones you know). It’s easy, don’t be afraid.

There is also a Rules Committee. If any rules clarifications (or god forbid a dispute) come up, then the decision of the Rules Committee member is FINAL (even if it’s wrong). I know of only one dispute in our league in 5 years (and that troublemaker was OUT of the league at the end of the year).

We each pay $20 membership fee at the beginning of the year. We then pay $5 per week to the league. Everyone takes care of their own table time. There is no pressure to collect every week; because nothing is paid out until the final night. As long as you are paid up at the end of the year, then you will be included in the final payouts. We pay out all 18 places – no fortunes to be made in this league. The top half players will get all of their fees back and a little more; the bottom players play HARD the last night to improve their positions. There is NO sandbagging in this league – it would only lower your position.

We also receive donations of merchandise from billiard supply stores, a pro player, and the factory where a lot of these guys work – that stuff is given away during the season by raffle (no additional charge).

I’m sure I’ve forgotten something, feel free to call if you have questions. Mark Wilson in Collinsville, IL has a quite different league format and handicap system; he has only 3 tables and shorter games. You might call him if you want another viewpoint. SJM on the AZB forum also has a different straight pool handicapping system (from his NYC straight pool leagues) that is good; but everyone plays to different numbers (a bit confusing), and is based on “high runs” during competition which makes a LOT of record keeping. Our system requires only recording the final score; I highly recommend this to reduce the paperwork.
 
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alinco

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Danny Harriman said:
Hello all,

I am going to start a 14.1 league at the "Side Pockets" in Blue Springs Missouri. I would greatly appreciate any advice or suggestions people have from their experience in such a league.

Especially about a handicapping system, How to initially set the players handicap for the new league, and a good system to maintain a fair handicap.

Thanks for your time,

Danny

Hi Danny,

I play in a straight pool league at Bill & Billies CueSport in Arnold, MD. I'll be playing my 4th 16-week session starting next month. The league has been going for about 4 years now.

Each session is $100 up front. Loser pays table time of match. The room pitches in by putting all matches on a 1 player rate and adding some money to the session ending prize fund. Money is paid out at the end of the session for places 1, 2 and 3 in each bracket with bonuses for high runs. There is also a year ending tournament with 4 players from each bracket playing in the event with no entry fee.

We play every Wednesday night with a schedule of who plays whom. Matches can be played at other times with 24 hours notice.

We have 6 brackets A-F with 6 players in each bracket. Everybody is currently ranked from a 50 to a 170. A match is played to your handicap value. So I'm a 115 and when I play Ed who's a 170, he goes to 170 and I go to 115.

The brackets are paired together to keep from huge discrepancies in handicap. The AB players are together, same for CD and EF. We don't have a wealth of A level players so our A bracket ranges from 170 to 110. B from 110 to 95 and so on. You play everyone in your bracket twice and everyone in the paired bracket once. I think they discovered a couple years ago that a 170 playing a 50 is still going to win so this avoids total mismatches. Our 170 player is likely to put a 50 ball run in a match. A 50 ranked player is likely to make a 6 or 7 ball run.

We use the "dictator" approach to setting and modifying handicaps. The guy who runs it Peter Burrows just checks with me and some others about what players should be rated. I help run the Tiger Planet Pool 9 Ball Tour for the last 6 years and know how well most players in the area play. Peter keeps an eye on won/loss records and high runs and adjusts accordingly. It's not very scientific but easy to do. I think it works because there is not a ton of money to be won. And losers pay table time which is $10 - $15 per match (at least for AB players). It just wouldn't be very cost effective to sandbag.

Hope that helps some. Also, we're having a sizeable Maryland Straight Pool tournament in November. I'll post that on AZ in the next few weeks.

Andy
 

curly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Danny Harriman said:
Hello all,

I am going to start a 14.1 league at the "Side Pockets" in Blue Springs Missouri. I would greatly appreciate any advice or suggestions people have from their experience in such a league.

Especially about a handicapping system, How to initially set the players handicap for the new league, and a good system to maintain a fair handicap.

Thanks for your time,

Danny
Danny, glad to hear you're going to start a straight pool league. I started one about 20 years ago and it's still going with 20 players. The idea was to keep it very simple with little need for the players to keep track of innings, runs etc without interferring with their playing. The only thing the players had to do was report the final score to the secretary after the match. Our league was setup without a large payout so sandbagging wasn't an issue.

At the beginning we assigned each player with a starting handicap of either 70 or 100..with the poorer player going to 70 and the better one to 100. These numbers can be adjusted according to the skill of the group in the league. We set limits of 45 and 100 due to time constraints. You may want to consider a higher handicap use possibly 80, 120 and 160 for starters. We also play a set (race) of 9-ball after the straight pool game so that's why we kept our points in straight lower than you may want if you're only having a straight pool league. It is also handicapped with a simple method. Our players typically are 1-2 rack runners and are enthusiasts with most that play only once a week.

Every week their handicap is adjusted by 3 balls. If they win, their handicap would increase by 3 and if they would loose it would decrease by 3 balls. It works pretty good without any radical swings if a player is "off" one week and looses by a large amount of balls. If you increase the points to 150 max, you may want to consider a 4 or 5 point adjustment after each match.

We also use a bowling schedule to determine the tables and players schedule which is a round robin format. Most bowling alleys have a variety of schedules available to fit the number of tables and players that are in the league.

Our league was just something that was put together to get the guys that loved to play pool playing again and it worked. Many started playing again and are enjoying the league. Cincinatti has a very good league also (CSPL) that has been running for a number of years successfully. Tom Suarez was a member and posts here as Sactown Tom I think.

I enjoy watching you play Danny. You are very talented. I wish you good luck with your league!

Hope this helps.
Curly
 

Tom In Cincy

AKA SactownTom
Silver Member
Cincinnati Straight Pool League
Started in 1998 with 32 players.
The format is pretty simple.
No handicap, race to 100 (cue ball fouls only--no referees)
You can use the rack to see if a ball in in the rack area.

We split the number of players that sign up into multiple groups, evenly seeded (as much as possible, it gets easier after the first session)

All the members provide a telephone number that everyone has access.
Instead of having all the matches played on one night, taking up a lot of tables, each match is arranged by the two players to play at a time that is suitable for each.

The players of the different groups will play a round robin schedule and will accumulate a won-loss record that will be used to determine playoffs.

The top w-l record for each group will be that groups champion.
32 players, 4 groups, 4 regular session champs. (4 groups, North, South, East , West) 8 players/group, 7 matches.

Each of the top 2 or 3 players in each group will play each other in a playoff round robin match. Two groups (north, south) will match up 4 or more players to determine a player for the Session's Champ for the top group.

The middle w-l record players from the North and South groups, (3rd, 4th and maybe 5th place in each group) will also play a round robin match to determine a 2nd tier championship contender that will play the contender from the East West groups.

Then the final w-l records players (those with the 0-7,1-6.2-5) will play like the first tier players to determine contenders for their respective session's championships.

$10 to Join
$6/player/match plus table time.
Every player that wins a match will get $5 per win at the end of the session.

$10/match for the playoffs
Every player that wins a match during the playoffs will get $10/win.
Playoff winners (1st and 2nd) get extra

Session Championships all three levels
1st and runnerup get trophies and cash all equal.

I've an excell spread sheet that can be used to record scores and create standings for each divisions that I would be glad to email you if you want.
 

Wally in Cincy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Rich R. said:
Danny, IIRC, there is a very good straight pool league in Cincinnati and there are at least one or two members, or former members on this forum. Hopefully, one of them will chime in, when they see this thread.


Thanks Rich. Perhaps wednesday when i have time and clear thoughts.

I hope you and Cathy are doing well.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Danny Harriman said:
Hello all,

I am going to start a 14.1 league at the "Side Pockets" in Blue Springs Missouri. I would greatly appreciate any advice or suggestions people have from their experience in such a league.

Especially about a handicapping system, How to initially set the players handicap for the new league, and a good system to maintain a fair handicap.

Thanks for your time,

Danny
Call Shakespears in Denver CO as for Mike Hopkins aka Hoppe and he had a 14.1 league for a few years, sounds like your boning up on you 8-ball practice, good thinking.
 

Peter Burrows

New member
Danny Harriman said:
Hello all,

I am going to start a 14.1 league at the "Side Pockets" in Blue Springs Missouri. I would greatly appreciate any advice or suggestions people have from their experience in such a league.

Especially about a handicapping system, How to initially set the players handicap for the new league, and a good system to maintain a fair handicap.

Thanks for your time,

Danny

Peter Burrows, Annapolis, MD here. As Andy Lincoln comments, I am the Direrector "dictator?" of the WILLIE MOSCONI 14.1 STRAIGHT POOL LEAGUE here in Maryland. The league here has 40 players and runs smoothly and is very popular. It is handicapped and I am more than happy to discuss its details with anyone via PM to me or phone 410-757-3488. Peter B.
 
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