Advise to Dr. DAVE From Ron V.

clarification

RonV said:
We had a few telephone conversations and I sent him my notes a book that I wrote... Then he wrote that article...
Ron,

FYI, I wrote my November '08 article before we spoke on the phone and well before we exchanged books. The November issue came out in mid October and I wrote the article almost 2 months before that (in August), and I had thought about the content well before then.

When I talked to you, I was thinking of writing my January '09 article on the specifics of the 90/90 and/or CTE systems, but I decided to move on to CB control topics.

I am sorry your were offended by my articles. They were certainly not written with you or your systems specifically in mind.

I look forward to talking again in the future, and I hope to get to meet you some day and maybe do some filming together as we discussed.

Regards,
Dave
 
diagram in question

SpiderWebComm said:
I think if someone doesn't understand a system well enough to diagram it, they shouldn't diagram and falsely disprove it in a national magazine. The diagram is completely wrong.
Dave,

Please let me know which article and which diagram you are referring to. Also, please let me know what you think is wrong. My diagrams show basic concepts. They aren't applied to any specific system, although I think they are appropriate in discussing pivot-based systems.

Thanks,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Dave,

Please let me know which article and which diagram you are referring to. Also, please let me know what you think is wrong. My diagrams show basic concepts. They aren't applied to any specific system, although I think they are appropriate in discussing pivot-based systems.

Thanks,
Dave

I read above you guys are planning to film together. That's a good thing. Once you spend time together, a lot of questions will be answered on both sides. Your diagram is the same as PJs which started our argument (one I don't wish to rehash). I demonstrated in some videos posted on poolvids.com why that particular diagram is incorrect.

Someone mentioned above we need to figure out why these systems work. I want to know why I can setup ridiculous shots, pivot, and make them way more often than aiming with ghostball - and I'm not alone. These systems work on nearly every shot on the table. I wont say every shot - but I will say over 90% easily. I know Colin has difficulties, but that's just Colin;) Just kidding, I know if I had an hour or two with Colin I'd fix him in no time.

When you film with Ron, make sure you have a good top-down camera. That'll be crucial to seeing what really happens. :)

Dave
 
And yet we know that ghost ball and compensating for deflection are geometrically correct. Doesn't this tell you that your personal success or failure with a system is not evidence of its geometric correctness? That's logic.

Pat, where is the geometry that makes Ghost Ball geometrically correct?

If I understand all this correctly Dave introduced a concept called Contact Induced Throw meaning that when a ball is struck the cueball will carry the object ball forward in the same direction with it before the balls release and each go in different directions.

So before the idea with Ghost Ball was to visualize an imaginary ball on the pocket line and shoot the cueball to that ball. Or go further and visualize a contact point created by that imaginary ball and try to hit that contact point.

Then we are told that we must now compensate for deflection and aim "a little to the right or left of this contact point" so that the cueball will arrive at the right point.

NOW - we are told that to use Ghost Ball properly we much compensate for Contact Induced Throw and Deflection.

All this compensating is supposed to be achieved HOW?

By guessing because there is no way for a player to accurately measure just how many fractions of degrees that they must parallel shift to achieve the proper compensation. And even if the guess right one time they have to do it all over again the next time when the shot is slightly different.

This is where the "shoot a million shots" crowd comes in and says that shooting those million balls trains the body to compensate quickly and accurately which is true because we are able to adapt to any condition.

Then along comes these people who start talking about these things called Aiming Systems which don't rely on imagining a ball and compensating for deflection and "contact induced throw". Somehow these systems seem to work to allow the shooter to deliver the cueball to the exact same spot (or close enough to also pocket the ball) as when someone uses the imaginary ball/focus on a point/compensate for deflection and CIT "system". And instead of figuring out WHY these systems do work, people want to say that they can't possibly work, or that they can't work for all shots.

Ghost ball is also an "aiming system". On paper you can explain and diagram the geometry of it quite easily which is why in my mind it has been most popular to put in print. However there is something inherently flawed in a "system" that tells you in order to use it you have to make a lot of guesses when it comes to the proper alignment.

I think that this is the real beauty of these systems. They literally take the guessing out of the process. It's much easier for me to mentally dissect the cueball into thirds and project lines onto the object ball and thus follow a path rather than to try to guess how much the cueball will deflect and (now) also have to guess how much the contact induced throw will be. If I can simply do the same thing shot after shot and it brings me to the right path and that path results in pocketed balls then I have to conclude that this is a better way to go.

And here is the other thing; All these people who espouse aiming systems other than ghost ball are all after the same thing, better play. We are all on the same side and NO ONE is getting rich off of this. Dr. Dave wrote a book with mucho excellent advice and put out a ton of videos that is so helpful it's beyond compare. We sell that book and dvd alongside books and dvds by others who teach, for lack of a better term, non-standard aiming systems.

The point I want to make is that we live in a video age. Dave's videos show us what happens and frankly some of the results are very surprising even to him. I am POSITIVE that some of the things that have been shown on video defy conventional wisdom of what is happening. Dave please correct me if you have never been surprised by the difference in what you thought would happen vs. what did happen when you filmed something on a pool table.

So in this case we have a clear situation of concepts that defy conventional wisdom, being that conventional wisdom is based on the ghost ball aiming method. Now we need to find out why these various systems work, exactly how they work, how do they allow the user to automatically and unconciously achieve an aiming path that is already dialed in with deflection and contact induced throw already compensated for?

Figure that out and you will win the Nobel Prize. By the way no one ever won the Nobel Prize for figuring out how things don't work.
 
To Mike Page:

Using the one method I described here to Jal.

1. The prescription to find the target: The pocket is either to the right or left of the cueball.

2. The precription to find the stick line: by aligning the cueball and object ball using the double lines as described. For a centerball hit the stick line and the sight line will be the same. The application of sidepsin will neccessitate a pivot to apply the spin.

3. The prescription to find the sight line: also using the double lines the sight line is the path illustrated by the aligning of those points. Thus the sight line and stick line are the same. The divergence comes when sidespin will be used as the cue tip will pivot away from the stick line but the shooter will still be aligned correctly on the sight line.

Have I done this in the way you reccomend on your excellent slide show?
 
...there is something inherently flawed in a "system" that tells you in order to use it you have to make a lot of guesses...

No, there's something inherently inaccurate in a system that says you don't have to.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
No, there's something inherently inaccurate in a system that says you don't have to.

pj
chgo

Well I guess we will just have to conclude that we don't see it the same way. As I said before the systems work and many people know that they work. If those people can't figure out HOW they are GUESSING when they KNOW that they are guessing using the ghost ball method then I think that it's something worth investigating.

Prolly gonna do your other test this weekend if I have time. Got all the shafts laid out.
 
The "real DAM systems" is not a joke

Colin Colenso said:
Dave's Aiming System (DAM), is a joke. He is not marketing this system.
Colin,

You are right about me not marketing DAM, and you are right that the first paragraph of my November '08 DAM article was a joke; however, on page 4 of the article (after Diagram 2), my two-paragraph description of the "real DAM system" is not a joke. To be clear, here is the non-joking version of DAM:
You visualize the required "angle of the shot" and required "line of aim" (per the advice below), you then align your cue and vision with the line of aim as you drop into your stance, you then follow all of the recommended stroke "best practices." Be sure to maintain "quiet eyes" both at the "set" aiming position, checking both the CB tip contact point and your aiming line, and when focusing on your OB target during the final forward stroke.

I think good pool players use all visual information available to them to help see the required angle of the shot and the necessary line of aim. They might use any or all of: ghost-ball visualization, ball-to-ball contact-point visualization, impact-line (or "target line" or "line of centers") visualization, center-to-edge (CTE) 1/2-ball-hit line visualization, etc. They also intuitively make adjustments where necessary for squirt, swerve, and throw based on shot distance, shot speed, cue elevation, ball and cloth conditions, amount and type of spin, etc. I don't think a good player needs a mechanical "system" to help with the visualization part. If you don't fall into this category, there are drills and techniques you can use to help develop your visualization skills so you can improve your ability to "see" the shot. For example, see NV 3.1, NV 3.2, NV B.3, and my October '08 article. Also, I have a useful ghost-ball aiming summary and drill on my website. Well, that's it ... that's the whole DAM process.

Regards,
Dave
 
Last edited:
dr_dave said:
Colin,

You are right about me not marketing DAM, and you are right that the first paragraph of my November '08 DAM article was a joke; however, on page 4 of the article (after Diagram 2), my two-paragraph description of the "real DAM system" is not a joke. To be clear, here is the non-joking version of DAM:
You visualize the required "angle of the shot" and required "line of aim" (per the advice below), you then align your cue and vision with the line of aim as you drop into your stance, you then follow all of the recommended stroke "best practices." Be sure to maintain "quiet eyes" both at the "set" aiming position, checking both the CB tip contact point and your aiming line, and when focusing on your OB target during the final forward stroke.

I think good pool players use all visual information available to them to help see the required angle of the shot and the necessary line of aim. They might use any or all of: ghost-ball visualization, ball-to-ball contact-point visualization, impact-line (or "target line" or "line of centers") visualization, center-to-edge (CTE) 1/2-ball-hit line visualization, etc. They also intuitively make adjustments where necessary for squirt, swerve, and throw based on shot distance, shot speed, cue elevation, ball and cloth conditions, amount and type of spin, etc. I don?t think a good player needs a mechanical "system? to help with the visualization part. If you don?t fall into this category, there are drills and techniques you can use to help develop your visualization skills so you can improve your ability to "see" the shot. For example, see NV 3.1, NV 3.2, NV B.3, and my October '08 article. Also, I have a useful ghost-ball aiming summary and drill on my website. Well, that?s it ? that?s the whole DAM process.

Regards,
Dave
True Dave,
I was simplifying it for those who can't seem to grasp what you are saying or where you are coming from.

DAM is a pretty good approach as far as I am concerned.

Colin
 
dr_dave said:
Colin,

You are right about me not marketing DAM, and you are right that the first paragraph of my November '08 DAM article was a joke; however, on page 4 of the article (after Diagram 2), my two-paragraph description of the "real DAM system" is not a joke. To be clear, here is the non-joking version of DAM:
You visualize the required "angle of the shot" and required "line of aim" (per the advice below), you then align your cue and vision with the line of aim as you drop into your stance, you then follow all of the recommended stroke "best practices." Be sure to maintain "quiet eyes" both at the "set" aiming position, checking both the CB tip contact point and your aiming line, and when focusing on your OB target during the final forward stroke.

I think good pool players use all visual information available to them to help see the required angle of the shot and the necessary line of aim. They might use any or all of: ghost-ball visualization, ball-to-ball contact-point visualization, impact-line (or "target line" or "line of centers") visualization, center-to-edge (CTE) 1/2-ball-hit line visualization, etc. They also intuitively make adjustments where necessary for squirt, swerve, and throw based on shot distance, shot speed, cue elevation, ball and cloth conditions, amount and type of spin, etc. I don?t think a good player needs a mechanical "system? to help with the visualization part. If you don?t fall into this category, there are drills and techniques you can use to help develop your visualization skills so you can improve your ability to "see" the shot. For example, see NV 3.1, NV 3.2, NV B.3, and my October '08 article. Also, I have a useful ghost-ball aiming summary and drill on my website. Well, that?s it ? that?s the whole DAM process.

Regards,
Dave


How do you know that a player intuitively makes adjustments? What do these adjustments look like? How are they made?

What are "quiet eyes"?

Yes, an aiming system helps to "see the shot". That's the whole point. Whatever system is used, be it ghost ball or SAM, is designed to get the player aligned correctly on the ONLY path that will work to send the cueball into the object ball properly in order to pocket the object ball.

If you use an aiming system then HOPEFULLY you will outgrow it to the point where you just see the shot and can get down on the right line without thinking about or measuring it.

Many three cushion players study diamond systems when they start and hardly any of them use these systems when they get to world class level. It's because the lines are part of their being by that time. They don't need to think about it anymore.

I want to ask you the same question that I asked Pat. How do you suppose that a beginner can intuitively adjust for squirt, swerve and deflection, when they barely know what those things are? If you give a beginner an aiming system and he begins to pocket shots that are technically far above his level then you can't really say that this player is automatically adjusting for things he knows nothing of.

I could see this making sense to a degree for good players who learn an aiming system, but even then my own personal experience disproves it.
 
the fickle finger of fate aiming system.

I have found the fickle finger of fate aiming system(with apologies to Laugh In) to work very well with beginners. In casual settings when guys were having a wee bit too much fun beating hapless girls they were dating I simply put a finger where I wanted them to aim and told them to hit slow, medium, hard, or rarely very hard.

Most people have a pretty good stroke until we start trying to perfect it and it wasn't uncommon for girls to beat their boyfriends playing like this and occasionally run the table. No spin except rarely a little high or low, and no concept of what they were doing except trying to hit my finger.

When an aiming system works this same way for someone, making them play well above their normal level, we have to admit that it works at least to that degree. One thing the people demanding a perfect system tend to overlook is that if a person is a 50% shooter or less, a system that has them making 75% or more of their shots is huge to them. Likewise if a better shooter jumps a couple balls using a system, it is huge for them even if it isn't perfect.

Also, the people claiming systems can't work are almost always calculating the percentage of shots that the system won't work for on the entire table totally ignoring that the vast majority of players using any system, including ghost ball, are trying to get shape on the next ball. This vastly increases the effectiveness of any system including "feel" and just seeing a shot. A lot easier to see a shot or use a system if the two balls are a foot apart and the pocket nearby.

Hu



JB Cases said:
How do you know that a player intuitively makes adjustments? What do these adjustments look like? How are they made?

What are "quiet eyes"?

Yes, an aiming system helps to "see the shot". That's the whole point. Whatever system is used, be it ghost ball or SAM, is designed to get the player aligned correctly on the ONLY path that will work to send the cueball into the object ball properly in order to pocket the object ball.

If you use an aiming system then HOPEFULLY you will outgrow it to the point where you just see the shot and can get down on the right line without thinking about or measuring it.

Many three cushion players study diamond systems when they start and hardly any of them use these systems when they get to world class level. It's because the lines are part of their being by that time. They don't need to think about it anymore.

I want to ask you the same question that I asked Pat. How do you suppose that a beginner can intuitively adjust for squirt, swerve and deflection, when they barely know what those things are? If you give a beginner an aiming system and he begins to pocket shots that are technically far above his level then you can't really say that this player is automatically adjusting for things he knows nothing of.

I could see this making sense to a degree for good players who learn an aiming system, but even then my own personal experience disproves it.
 
*******************
I don?t think a good player needs a mechanical "system? to help with the visualization part. If you don?t fall into this category, there are drills and techniques you can use to help develop your visualization skills so you can improve your ability to "see" the shot. For example, see NV 3.1, NV 3.2, NV B.3, and my October '08 article. Also, I have a useful ghost-ball aiming summary and drill on my website. Well, that?s it ? that?s the whole DAM process.
**************************************

Obviously a good player doesn't need all of this. They are already good players.

Dave, I think your approach to aiming is "see the ghost ball, just like I do".

Well, not everybody can, does, or wants to.

Jimmy Reid's equal-opposite
Joe Tucker's By the Numbers
Validated methods that associate OB target points with cut angle.

All of these are teachable approaches that can structure the game for the many who cannot see that which is not there.

I wonder how many people have given up this game because of the ghost ball? I bet it is a lot.
 
When I first got back into pool, I started reading everything I could about the game. Bought the books, read the aiming systems, tried to understand the math.

I realized that "knowing the math" doesn't matter, all that matters is me knowing what is gonna happen when I shoot. That takes practice and time.

I don't care what aiming system you use, they all try to do the something, get the cue ball to a point on the table that makes the object ball go where you want it. Once again, practice and time are the only way to achieve any level of skill in this.

Honestly, any system is really a ghost ball system. all want to put the ball where the ghost ball is on the object ball.
 
Dr. D.:

Per the first sentence of DAM: You first visualize the angle of the shot and the line of aim. DAM sounds like playing by feel, which is fine. Nothing wrong with that.

I think my point with Ron's system or CTE, is I don't visualize the angle or the line of aim. Neither. I "see" an initial sight-line and then pivot to the "line of actual aim."

I used to say that Ron's system and CTE required zero perception - you aim a definitive point on the CB to a definitive point on the OB, pivot, and make the ball. However, in fairness I've found that some people can't "see" the correct sight line, whether it be 90/90 or CTE...whatever.

However, training someone to identify the correct sight line takes about 999,500 balls less than the million required for the multi-way intuition-approach (for a B player and above - more for lesser players, but still a large delta).

As a pool scientist, I think you should devote some time to not only learning the systems, but effectively playing with them. Once you do, I can't wait to read your follow-up article. It's my belief that unless you devote enough time to play with the systems (which won't take super long), your articles will never be what they could. Be an investigative reporter and go deep-undercover and REALLY learn this stuff.

I couldn't image making a ball without a pivot anymore. After doing it for so long, I now realize how many mental gymnastics your brain goes through subconsciously when aiming by feel.

PJ: I don't think anyone ever said these systems eliminate ALL feel variables (CIT, deflection). After all, after the pivot, your tip is at center ball so there shouldn't be deflection. However, when you want right / left english you pivot to english position from your starting point. I would say it's equal to BHE from a traditional ball-pocketing aim line. The cue's pivot point matters. I think I've always been at my cues pivot point naturally, so I think I was lucky.

I know there are a lot of people on here who wouldn't waste two minutes of their time to learn these systems. I read their posts everyday. My question to you is... are you on the pro tour? If not, what do you have to lose learning something new? There are people who are top-20 ranked who use this stuff exclusively - for every shot. So, wouldn't you want to learn it--- even if you don't use it? It's like being a math scholar and not wanting to learn new equations; or, being a golfer and not wanting to learn a new flop shot.

Talking about flop shots.... has anyone here ever gone to a major tournament and watched Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson flop a ball nearly vertical and stick it to the pin? When you stand behind those guys and you see where the club head is pointing and the path of their swing, you swear they were about to shank the golf ball into the crowd. However, the ball fires up in the air and sticks near the cup. That's how I view these aiming systems. There is more to this discussion, in my opinion, that has ever been discussed. Meaning, I'm open to the idea I'm doing something not discussed or that I'm pivoting in a way that's different than what I feel. It is systematic, however. In my mind, I'm doing the exact same thing over and over again on every single shot---- THAT'S the strength of these systems.... NOT approaching each shot as being unique and different from all others. You can argue it's impossible....but....a LOT of people are doing it....so is it?

My final comment is to repeat a quote of mine from the Million Dollar 9-Ball event. I was smoking a cig with Bustamante and he said in broken english...."Ghost ball? What is a ghost ball?" I explained it to him and he replied, "Why would someone want to do that?"

In short... there's a LOT we don't know that we're learning together. Let's stop the infighting and figure out the what works, what doesn't, and the adjustments. Some of the best players use this stuff - are they stupid or are we?
 
Last edited:
JB Cases said:
How do you know that a player intuitively makes adjustments?

Because adjustments must be made or shots won't go, and many shots go.

How do you suppose that a beginner can intuitively adjust for squirt, swerve and deflection, when they barely know what those things are?

How did any players do it before these things were generally known? (P.S. Squirt and deflection are the same thing.)

If you give a beginner an aiming system and he begins to pocket shots that are technically far above his level then you can't really say that this player is automatically adjusting for things he knows nothing of.

Of course you can. If the adjustments are necessary (we know they are) and the beginner is making shots (you say he is), then the adjustments are being made.

I could see this making sense to a degree for good players who learn an aiming system, but even then my own personal experience disproves it.

Your personal experience is subjective (by definition). Proof is objective (by definition). One has nothing to do with the other.

pj
chgo
 
... are you on the pro tour?

Are you?

If not, what do you have to lose learning something new?

What do you have to lose?

There are people who are top-20 ranked who use this stuff exclusively - for every shot.

And others who never use it.

So, wouldn't you want to learn it--- even if you don't use it? It's like being a math scholar and not wanting to learn new equations; or, being a golfer and not wanting to learn a new flop shot.

Or being a system user and not wanting to learn how they really work.

pj
chgo
 
Okay, I understand some of the basics. I run as many as 10 balls frequently. A few more than that less frequently. I understand deflection. I use english when necessary. I do not understand CTE, pivot point and lots of other things. What is the best book or video I could buy to help me understand these things?

Dave Nelson
 
Are you?
No. You missed my point. That's why I'm learning this stuff.


What do you have to lose?
Nothing.


And others who never use it.
Very true


Or being a system user and not wanting to learn how they really work.
That was the point of my last post, PJ. I do want to know.

pj
chgo[/QUOTE]
 
Dave...There aren't any...and they wouldn't help, even if there were. Systems like CTE, Ron V's hip pivot, and SAM use processes that must be demonstrated at the table to the student, for a clear understanding...and even then some folks can't "get it". These kinds of systems demand a certain amount of 'faith' and belief that they will work. Overanalytical types (i.e.: A 27 degree angle cannot be the same aim as a 33 degree angle...hint: yes they can!) usually cannot 'let go' enough to benefit from using them. The main thing, is that many types of aiming methods are best demonstrated at the table, by a qualified teacher, than trying to learn them out of a book or video (when they are available).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Dave Nelson said:
What is the best book or video I could buy to help me understand these things?

Dave Nelson
 
Back
Top