African Blackwood and tone

P

poolgoddess

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is good seasoned African Blackwood are to come by? I hear, the premium wood,
goes to musical instruments. They say it has a better tonal quality than Brazilian
Rosewood. Does the tonal quality, which involves resonance thru the cue, have any
thing to do with the playability of the cue? Comments please. Thanks
 
Define 'good' as it pertains to cue tone wood and 'hit'. Pertaining to what is good, there are as many opinions as people. Can we just stick to politics and religion?
 
If you are going to make a comment, how about trying to be helpful. In my question, the
word good, had to do with, is it hard to come by. In other words, is it hard to find. Had nothing
to do with tone wood, or hit.
 
It is not hard to find in pieces big enough for most cues. 30" pieces are very rare as the tree is small and the heartwood is smaller still. The trouble with black wood is that it is so heavy, about 20% heavier than ebony and 30-40% heavier than brazilian rosewood. It is a pretty wood but you have to have it in sun light to see it. A lot of makers use it, sparingly. I've used it for over 30 years and as far as tonality, it doesn't compare to Brazilian while it is much better than ebony. As used in cues, that won't matter.
 
I agree that it's preference. Unlike Paul, I actually prefer blackwood to brazilian. Blackwood has a sharp, glassy tone that is perfect for wind instruments like a flute, where higher frequencies are the objective. Brazilian has a softer tone, though likely stronger depending on the particular piece, and it holds the sound longer. That makes it more suitable for guitars & other stringed instruments where a low to mid frequency range is the objective. What does any of it have to do with cues? Nothing unless you know which type of cue you want to create, and know which woods to pair up for the task.

Blackwood is a good choice for a forearm is you are looking for a hard, crisp, sharp hit with that high pitch "ping". This can be tamed down with a softer toned handle & dull tone shaft wood, or can be enhanced further yet with other high pitch woods. Same thing with coring. The builder has to know what he's doing, but a blackwood forearm is a good place to start if you want a hard, sharp hit.

Contrarily, braz rose is a good place to start if you want a lively cue with audible but low "ring", that doesn't feel like playing with a piece of steel. Still going to generally hit harder than maple, but nowhere close to hard as blackwood. Again, this can be influenced with how you match other woods in the handle, shaft, and coring if that applies. It's all about controlling the overall tone of the assembled cue. That's how you determine the hit. I can build a soft hitting cue with blackwood or brazilian, or a very hard hitting cue. It's a science. The hardness & tonal characteristics of the wood is merely a starting point. You still have to build the cue.

Think of tone as a rainbow. Koa & fiddleback maple are known for giving a "smokey" tone when used in instruments. Blackwood & other high pitch rosewoods are chosen because they give a "bright" sound. Everything falls to one side or the other, with brazilian being fairly close to the middle, and likely why it's so favored by cue makers. It's not easy to build a bad cue with brazilian. But yet again, it's all about the assembled cue, not a singular component. Cue makers must give every single component equal consideration. As they say, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Build a sturdy, stiff, pingy butt & mate it to a dull tone shaft and you just ruined the cue if a pingy hit is what you were after. Build a pingy butt & install a giant soft rubber bumper, and you just killed it. Everything must work in unison & complimentary of one another. It's not just putting crap together & calling it a cue, though obviously that's what happens much of the time.
 
Now that's one hell of a response, extremely helpful. You make a great point. If a cue maker,
is a very skilled craftsman, and knows what woods complement each other, then he can build
a cue to the exact tone and specs of the customer. Well played.
 
The hit of a cue begins with the tip and heads back towards the handle. In my opinion, a good hitting cue is 80% plus beginning with a quality shaft wood. The amount of tonal quality is so undetectable 30 inches back into a cue, the question is almost mute. I agree with the statement a good cue needs to be built correctly, yes. If you use high quality shafts, you have a great platform for a solid , tonal hitting cue. To express my idea, go to you tube anytime and watch the tar interview with Gina Cues. Ernie knows his shaft wood and explains the basis of a great hitting cue that starts right there, shafts. As I have played with a birdseye maple cue from Ernie , and I would say it was the most tonal hitting cue with the best feel I have played with in a long time.
And no, high quality blackwood is not hard to find or come by at all. And I agree it is quite heavy, the difference in playability is so small, you could not tell it from ebony with out just knowing your woods and preferring it to begin with.
 
danieldakota53 said:
The hit of a cue begins with the tip and heads back towards the handle. In my opinion, a good hitting cue is 80% plus beginning with a quality shaft wood. The amount of tonal quality is so undetectable 30 inches back into a cue, the question is almost mute. I agree with the statement a good cue needs to be built correctly, yes. If you use high quality shafts, you have a great platform for a solid , tonal hitting cue. To express my idea, go to you tube anytime and watch the tar interview with Gina Cues. Ernie knows his shaft wood and explains the basis of a great hitting cue that starts right there, shafts. As I have played with a birdseye maple cue from Ernie , and I would say it was the most tonal hitting cue with the best feel I have played with in a long time.
And no, high quality blackwood is not hard to find or come by at all. And I agree it is quite heavy, the difference in playability is so small, you could not tell it from ebony with out just knowing your woods and preferring it to begin with.
Click to expand...

Very simply, who are you & what cues do you build? This section is "ask the cuemaker", not "ask some random internet know it all who has zero experience building cues".
 
danieldakota53 said:
The hit of a cue begins with the tip and heads back towards the handle. In my opinion, a good hitting cue is 80% plus beginning with a quality shaft wood. The amount of tonal quality is so undetectable 30 inches back into a cue, the question is almost mute. I agree with the statement a good cue needs to be built correctly, yes. If you use high quality shafts, you have a great platform for a solid , tonal hitting cue. To express my idea, go to you tube anytime and watch the tar interview with Gina Cues. Ernie knows his shaft wood and explains the basis of a great hitting cue that starts right there, shafts. As I have played with a birdseye maple cue from Ernie , and I would say it was the most tonal hitting cue with the best feel I have played with in a long time.
And no, high quality blackwood is not hard to find or come by at all. And I agree it is quite heavy, the difference in playability is so small, you could not tell it from ebony with out just knowing your woods and preferring it to begin with.
Click to expand...

That's like saying the car's ride is 80% from the tires.
There are plenty of cues with great shafts and good tips and still hit lousy.
 
I stand with my post. The shaft and it's quality dictates much of the cue. From there on back , a good fitting joint, well constructed but makes up the rest.
And no qbilder I will not respond to you and your remarks. I built cues for many years and am just sharing my knowledge with those wanting to listen in hopes some of my technics will help a few people. Not to argue,discuss, or justify myself with you. As always, I hope my info helps the original poster.

Quoting from "Rules for Posting in Ask the Cuemaker":

The forum shall never be used by cuemakers or non-cuemakers to criticize other cuemakers, the quality of their work, or their methods.

All discussions shall be had in a spirit of cooperation with the desire to learn and share knowledge. This means anyone can ask questions and the questions should be answered by cuemakers. Once the cuemaker gives his opinion it is to be taken as such and not to be criticized. There are many ways to build quality cues and there are many variations on opinions of what constitutes quality work. Therefore no one is allowed to start criticizing and slamming other peoples methods. Simply state what you feel is the best method and it should be left at that.
 
danieldakota53 said:
I stand with my post. The shaft and it's quality dictates much of the cue. From there on back , a good fitting joint, well constructed but makes up the rest.
And no qbilder I will not respond to you and your remarks. I built cues for many years and am just sharing my knowledge with those wanting to listen in hopes some of my technics will help a few people. Not to argue,discuss, or justify myself with you. As always, I hope my info helps the original poster.

Quoting from "Rules for Posting in Ask the Cuemaker":

The forum shall never be used by cuemakers or non-cuemakers to criticize other cuemakers, the quality of their work, or their methods.

All discussions shall be had in a spirit of cooperation with the desire to learn and share knowledge. This means anyone can ask questions and the questions should be answered by cuemakers. Once the cuemaker gives his opinion it is to be taken as such and not to be criticized. There are many ways to build quality cues and there are many variations on opinions of what constitutes quality work. Therefore no one is allowed to start criticizing and slamming other peoples methods. Simply state what you feel is the best method and it should be left at that.
Click to expand...

As long as the shaft wood is of quality. Weight and density defined. You can take one shaft, change the insert to match pins, and try it on every butt out there. Some cues the shaft will feel perfect. Others it may feel like a wet noodle. With your ideology on what makes a cues hit, could you explain how that can be? It's the same shaft on different cues with different feels. Your logic dictates that it should hit good no matter what.
 
danieldakota53 said:
I stand with my post. The shaft and it's quality dictates much of the cue. From there on back , a good fitting joint, well constructed but makes up the rest.
And no qbilder I will not respond to you and your remarks. I built cues for many years and am just sharing my knowledge with those wanting to listen in hopes some of my technics will help a few people. Not to argue,discuss, or justify myself with you. As always, I hope my info helps the original poster.

Quoting from "Rules for Posting in Ask the Cuemaker":

The forum shall never be used by cuemakers or non-cuemakers to criticize other cuemakers, the quality of their work, or their methods.

All discussions shall be had in a spirit of cooperation with the desire to learn and share knowledge. This means anyone can ask questions and the questions should be answered by cuemakers. Once the cuemaker gives his opinion it is to be taken as such and not to be criticized. There are many ways to build quality cues and there are many variations on opinions of what constitutes quality work. Therefore no one is allowed to start criticizing and slamming other peoples methods. Simply state what you feel is the best method and it should be left at that.
Click to expand...

I think you may have missed the point by qbilder's post.

He was not criticizing you, your cue building methods, or your cues.

This forum is called "Ask the Cue Maker", and you have given your opinion as though you are a cue maker. What you may not realize is that many here, including myself, don't know who you are or what cues you build.

In order for the forum to work as you expressed, the person who asks for those opinions will need to sort through all the differences and choose which ones he assimilates with. In order to do so, he most certainly needs some background on the ones who are providing that opinion. Hence, the question asked by qbilder. So, please just let us know who you are, what cues you've built, when and for how long, etc. This information will give the original poster some background information for him to base his decision on.

It's unfortunate that this forum is anonymous. At least as far as the cue makers go anyway. Eric Crisp, qbilder, is already pretty well known here. A simple search will provide plenty of information about both him and Sugartree cues. As for myself my avatar and signature pretty much point to my cues, and a search on me or them will give plenty of information as well.

So please, rather than feeling insulted, let us know who you are and some more information about you. I, for one, always enjoy learning about cue makers I've not known or heard of. There are thousands out there who share my passion and I'd like to know them all. Just let us know who you are.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
As long as the shaft wood is of quality. Weight and density defined. You can take one shaft, change the insert to match pins, and try it on every butt out there. Some cues the shaft will feel perfect. Others it may feel like a wet noodle. With your ideology on what makes a cues hit, could you explain how that can be? It's the same shaft on different cues with different feels. Your logic dictates that it should hit good no matter what.
Click to expand...

The idea honestly that one cue plays well and the other doesn't is a scenario that just isn't true. If a shaft plays good, and the joint work is flush and solid, it will also play good yes on another cue. The idea of feel is all about perception of the person holding it.
The wide variation of it playing solid and another cue playing like a wet noodle is very far fetched. If the cue butt is built solid, the amount of difference in the cues play will not change to where the feel is that noticable. Many will argue this point, as many always have. Now if the cue that shaft is switched to is inferior or not solidly built, then yes it will play less desirably . that's a gimme.
But my original reply was most of the hit of a good playing cue comes from the shaft IF the cue behind it is solidly built. As with anything their are always the what if's and people who love to ask the question.
I have built many cues, worked with many cue makers and been woodworking for over 40 plus years. I am not implying that all I say is the gospel or the only way to do things. And to be challenged on many posts because I speak the truth of real experience and what can work offends some I believe, while others I am sure will benefit from my posts.
I can say if people try some of my ideas and ways I am offering to do such things you may find it easier and helpful. But I have been involved with many online forums , and for no reason shall I give a resume to anyone for clarification. The original poster can listen, try and see for them selves, or chose not to. I am answering them and offering help and advise, not to those who feel offended because I don't offer a detailed account of myself or what I comment on is different than there way of doing things. This in no way makes me a know it all with no experience.
So thank you for the chance to answer questions here, and if for any reason the forum administrators do not want me to offer advise here, then I will stop. Until then, I offer my advise to any and all who care to listen in hopes it will better their cue building and help them save time,money and frustration.
Thank you
 
danieldakota53 said:
The idea honestly that one cue plays well and the other doesn't is a scenario that just isn't true. If a shaft plays good, and the joint work is flush and solid, it will also play good yes on another cue. The idea of feel is all about perception of the person holding it.
The wide variation of it playing solid and another cue playing like a wet noodle is very far fetched. If the cue butt is built solid, the amount of difference in the cues play will not change to where the feel is that noticable. Many will argue this point, as many always have. Now if the cue that shaft is switched to is inferior or not solidly built, then yes it will play less desirably . that's a gimme.
But my original reply was most of the hit of a good playing cue comes from the shaft IF the cue behind it is solidly built. As with anything their are always the what if's and people who love to ask the question.
I have built many cues, worked with many cue makers and been woodworking for over 40 plus years. I am not implying that all I say is the gospel or the only way to do things. And to be challenged on many posts because I speak the truth of real experience and what can work offends some I believe, while others I am sure will benefit from my posts.
I can say if people try some of my ideas and ways I am offering to do such things you may find it easier and helpful. But I have been involved with many online forums , and for no reason shall I give a resume to anyone for clarification. The original poster can listen, try and see for them selves, or chose not to. I am answering them and offering help and advise, not to those who feel offended because I don't offer a detailed account of myself or what I comment on is different than there way of doing things. This in no way makes me a know it all with no experience.
So thank you for the chance to answer questions here, and if for any reason the forum administrators do not want me to offer advise here, then I will stop. Until then, I offer my advise to any and all who care to listen in hopes it will better their cue building and help them save time,money and frustration.
Thank you
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Danieldakota53

I completely understand.

You have every right to remain anonymous on this forum, as well as the right to provide your opinions on how things are done.

Keep in mind that credibility and anonymity are two things that don't really go well together. If that is your chosen path, then so be it. It's your choice.

I for one don't necessarily agree with all of your points. Most are basically correct, but I think you draw some conclusions from them that are in conflict with my experiences as well as those of others whom I know and respect.

Knowledge in cues and the woods used in them is a journey, not a destination. I don't know anyone who knows it all. Every time I thought I did, I have been proven wrong. Therefore I am always open to new conclusions and experiences. It's just like the game of pool. The beauty of it is that I can still learn something new just about every time I play. And I've been playing for over 25 years!

Enjoy the forums, and shoot straight!


Royce
 
poolgoddess said:
If you are going to make a comment, how about trying to be helpful. In my question, the
word good, had to do with, is it hard to come by. In other words, is it hard to find. Had nothing
to do with tone wood, or hit.
Click to expand...

If you are going to push posting guidance, how about quoting the individual to whom you speak?:rolleyes::slap:
 
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