All this talk about tight pockets.

[Tbeaux]

Real close but you missed the down angles and what's the difference between a Valley and a Diamond bar box, not counting the slate shelf

Glen

I know nothing about bar boxes. I know most organizations specs call for 12-15 degree on the drop angle so are you saying 15 degree is not preferred? If so why? Does it cause a jump ball effect on hard shots or something like that?

 

[realkingcobra]

I know nothing about bar boxes. I know most organizations specs call for 12-15 degree on the drop angle so are you saying 15 degree is not preferred? If so why? Does it cause a jump ball effect on hard shots or something like that?

15 degrees down angle helps hold the balls down to the playing surface, and take some of the springing back and forth out of the corner pockets.

Glen

 

[Fatboy]

I'm just curious as to how many of you that talk about tight pockets on your tables at home, even know what makes a pocket tight? Do you know the difference in pocket angles, and their effects? Do you understand the effects the down angle and facings have when pocketing balls? Every time I rebuild a table for someone all I'm doing is Diamondizing the table I guess that's why I was wondering is all Further more, do you guys understand the difference in the types of cushions, Artemis, Super-speed, Accufast...K66 & K55 profiles? Slate shelf effect? Do you understand the differences between 4" and 4 1/2" pockets? Would you believe, if I wanted to, that I can make a 4 1/4" pocketed table play tighter than a 4" pocketed table, meaning the 4 1/4" pockets would reject the balls more than a 4" pocket!

I think most everyone on here is a little lost on what makes a table tight to play on, so tell me what you know and lets see

Glen, the "realkingcobra"

i know the answeres to those questions. :wink:

 

[realkingcobra]

i know the answeres to those questions. :wink:

I know you do Fatboy, that's because you spend to much time around me see you in a few weeks

Glen

 

[grindz]

I just know.....

that my table needs help.....................

td


AND so do I.... :wink:

 

[realkingcobra]

I know nothing about bar boxes. I know most organizations specs call for 12-15 degree on the drop angle so are you saying 15 degree is not preferred? If so why? Does it cause a jump ball effect on hard shots or something like that?

On all your normal bar tables, the corner pockets are wider at the back of the pocket than they are at the mouth/opening, that is how you make the pockets grab the balls and pocket them in order to get more coins to drop...faster games! So when you fire a ball down the rails on a bar table, the pocket angle of the facing that you're going to come into contact with, is only set at 42 degrees, meaning there's no chance of banging the ball cross pocket into the other facing because it's deflected so deep in the pocket it has no chance, then the short shelf slate pockets just seal the deal at balls POCKETED...which is why Diamond bar tables frustrates so many bar table players, which is why more and more Diamond bar tables are hitting the market...because players like the fact that you can't just fire a balls at the pockets and EVERTHING goes!

Glen

 

[ykndoit]

On all your normal bar tables, the corner pockets are wider at the back of the pocket than they are at the mouth/opening, that is how you make the pockets grab the balls and pocket them in order to get more coins to drop...faster games! So when you fire a ball down the rails on a bar table, the pocket angle of the facing that you're going to come into contact with, is only set at 42 degrees, meaning there's no chance of banging the ball cross pocket into the other facing because it's deflected so deep in the pocket it has no chance, then the short shelf slate pockets just seal the deal at balls POCKETED...which is why Diamond bar tables frustrates so many bar table players, which is why more and more Diamond bar tables are hitting the market...because players like the fact that you can't just fire a balls at the pockets and EVERTHING goes!

Glen

and the 'down angle' increases/decreases the pocketing of balls as well,yes?

I have a 7' diamond and my brother has a 7' dynamo. His table plays tighter than mine, especially the side pockets. Both tables have simonis cloth, both pocket openings the same. I haven't measured the pocket angle or the down angle, but I'm guessing that both of these are affecting the tightness.

Also, his cushions are alot more active than mine(actually they are TOO ACTIVE). I haven't measured the nose height on them, but I'm guessing that it has more to do w/ the composition of the rubber than the nose height as his rails has to be real close to the standard(1 1/8th"?).

 

[Tbeaux]

On all your normal bar tables, the corner pockets are wider at the back of the pocket than they are at the mouth/opening, that is how you make the pockets grab the balls and pocket them in order to get more coins to drop...faster games! So when you fire a ball down the rails on a bar table, the pocket angle of the facing that you're going to come into contact with, is only set at 42 degrees, meaning there's no chance of banging the ball cross pocket into the other facing because it's deflected so deep in the pocket it has no chance, then the short shelf slate pockets just seal the deal at balls POCKETED...which is why Diamond bar tables frustrates so many bar table players, which is why more and more Diamond bar tables are hitting the market...because players like the fact that you can't just fire a balls at the pockets and EVERTHING goes!

Glen

That explains it. Many years ago I tried playing on the bar boxes and they just sucked up coins (and the frickin' cueball). Since then I try to avoid them although they do seem to have gotten that cueball thing fixed.:grin:

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I'm just curious as to how many of you that talk about tight pockets on your tables at home, even know what makes a pocket tight? Do you know the difference in pocket angles, and their effects? Do you understand the effects the down angle and facings have when pocketing balls? Every time I rebuild a table for someone all I'm doing is Diamondizing the table I guess that's why I was wondering is all Further more, do you guys understand the difference in the types of cushions, Artemis, Super-speed, Accufast...K66 & K55 profiles? Slate shelf effect? Do you understand the differences between 4" and 4 1/2" pockets? Would you believe, if I wanted to, that I can make a 4 1/4" pocketed table play tighter than a 4" pocketed table, meaning the 4 1/4" pockets would reject the balls more than a 4" pocket!

I think most everyone on here is a little lost on what makes a table tight to play on, so tell me what you know and lets see

Glen, the "realkingcobra"

Glen,

Honestly, I would assume we're retards and that we know nothing (I know I am). I'd rather not sift through a bunch of guesses from other people. If you don't mind, I only care to read what you have to say. I mean this with the utmost respect. I hope you'll just post the answers to your own questions - because that what we wanna read

Regards,
Dave

 

[NewStroke]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the pocket is never tight if you hit the center of the pocket.

Seriously, I love practicing at home because I tend to rattle balls much more than I do off-site. Helps me with my accuracy, so I really don't
b1tch about it.

 

[Majic]

Glen,

Honestly, I would assume we're retards and that we know nothing (I know I am). I'd rather not sift through a bunch of guesses from other people. If you don't mind, I only care to read what you have to say. I mean this with the utmost respect. I hope you'll just post the answers to your own questions - because that what we wanna read

Regards,
Dave

He just wants someone to argue with since he isn't married.:thumbup:

 

[Roger Long]

The artical summerizes the pockets kind of well. but overlook the effects of the down angles in the pockets the facings and their effect on pocketing balls thus the difference between an Olhausen and a Brunswick with the exact same pocket shelf and pocket angles, as in of they were identical in design, they'd still play different, with the Olhausen rejecting more balls in the corner pockets than the Brunswick yet by his formula for rating, would rate the tables both with the same rating.

Glen

Glen,

Is there any way we could incorporate that additional information into the formula to get more accurate pocket ratings?

Roger

 

[Tbeaux]

Glen,

Is there any way we could incorporate that additional information into the formula to get more accurate pocket ratings?

Roger

Hey Roger. I've been crunching numbers and throwing in as much extra info regarding pocket size. By the way the WPA has slightly modified some of their preferred specs.

Try this.....

For pocket face down angle if the angle is 0 - 12 degrees assign a negative number (-1).
For 12 -13 degrees assign (+1.1).<edit: use (+.75 or less)
For 13- 15 degrees assign (+1).
Above 15 degrees if Glen says there is an acceptable range for bar boxes make it (+2). Above acceptable range make it a negative (-1).

Plug this into your formula....

(Mouth Opening) X (Throat) X (Face angle #) / (Setback)

Any negative numbers would indicate the table setup is junk, extremely high numbers would indicate acceptable bar boxes, good tables would stay the same, extremely low numbers below what you indicate on your ratings would be for deranged snooker pros. :thumbup:

 

[stormshadow1]

Good thread

Very interesting subject I have learned a lot about what make a pocket"tight".You guys really know your sh*t!Cool thread.

 

[Ant812]

On all your normal bar tables, the corner pockets are wider at the back of the pocket than they are at the mouth/opening,

wow, i never knew that. i always thought they were parrallel and the same width from the opening to the back. thanks. :thumbup:

 

[Tbeaux]

Wow I just checked the BCAs non-pro specs and both WPA and BCA have made changes since I last checked a couple of years ago.

Pocket Openings- BCA: corner= 4 7/8" to 5 1/8", side= 5 3/8" to 5 5/8"
WPA: corner= 4 1/2" to 4 5/8", side= 5" to 5 1/8"

Pocket Angle- BCA: corner= 142 +/- 1 degrees, side= 103 +/- 2 degrees
WPA: corner 142 +/- 1 degrees, side= 104 =/- 1 degrees

Face Angle- 12-15 degrees for both organizations.

Face Thickness- BCA: no spec, WPA: 1/16" to 1/4" rubber

Setback- BCA: corner= 1 5/8" to 1 7/8", side= 0 to 3/8"
WPA: corner= 1" to 2 1/4", side= 0 to 3/8"

 

[Roger Long]

Hey Roger. I've been crunching numbers and throwing in as much extra info regarding pocket size. By the way the WPA has slightly modified some of their preferred specs.

Try this.....

For pocket face down angle if the angle is 0 - 12 degrees assign a negative number (-1).
For 12 -13 degrees assign (+1.1).
For 13- 15 degrees assign (+1).
Above 15 degrees if Glen says there is an acceptable range for bar boxes make it (+2). Above acceptable range make it a negative (-1).

Plug this into your formula....

(Mouth Opening) X (Throat) X (Face angle #) / (Setback)

Any negative numbers would indicate the table setup is junk, extremely high numbers would indicate acceptable bar boxes, good tables would stay the same, extremely low numbers below what you indicate on your ratings would be for deranged snooker pros. :thumbup:

I hate to show my ignorance here, but someone will have to explain to me what "down angles" and "setbacks" are, and how can they be measured so that they could be included in the formula?

Actually, my real intention in coming up with a pocket formula was for promotional purposes. I thought it would be neat if tournament promoters could take a few quick measurements, and apply a quick and easy formula, and then advertise something like, "AND OUR WORLD CLASS PLAYERS WILL BE PLAYING THIS TOURNAMENT ON WORLD CLASS TABLES WITH A POCKET RATING OF 7.59!" I thought it might also be useful to the players, so they could have an idea of what to expect ahead of time. I mean, they always like to know exact things like what balls, what cue ball, what cloth, etc. will be used, so why shouldn't they know what the pockets are like? This info also helps people select, or modify, their practice tables at home.

So, back to you, Tbeaux and Glen. Can we come up with an easy way to include that additional info in the formula? If so, I'll amend my article and get it posted up.

Roger

 

[Tbeaux]

Roger setback is what you already had in your formula as your divisor....the distance back to the edge of the slate from the center of the pocket mouth.
The face drop angle (or vertical pocket angle) can be seen by looking at the facings at top and bottom. There is a wider gap at the bottom (slate level) than at the top of the facings. The angle should be 12 to 15 degrees measuring straight down each facing. They do this angle for basically the same reason the nose of the cushion is set slightly higher than the center of the ball (63% of ball height for cushion nose height). As RKC has indicated in the case of Olhausen balls seem to jump out of the pocket opening. I'm not sure if this is because of the angle Olhausen uses or if it's because their rail height is lower than everyone elses.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

In regard to the infamous Olhausen rattle, it may be three things now that this discussion has brought up all these factors. I always thought that it was simply because of the facing angle which is visibly different from say a GC or Diamond. The facings on an Olhausen angle noticeably outward whereby the measurement between the outer points is significantly wider than the inner points. So a ball hit along the rail is more apt to rebound into the other facing than into the pocket.

But it now seems as though it may also have something to do with rail height as well as the down angle of the facings.

Very interesting.

 

[Tbeaux]

Measuring the angle. Roger since the manufacturers and any good mechanic (like Glen) are going to set the angle 12 to 15 degrees and since rail height also seems to play a roll I'd say have them hold a straight edge straight down from the top of the facing onto a piece of paper set against the edge of the pocket face, mark the paper at the straight edge. Now measure.

If the distance is 1/2" plus or minus a 1/16" use (+1) this should be all normal rail height tables with the correct angle.
If you measure 3/8" plus or minus 1/16" use the (+1.1)<EDIT: use (+.75) or less this "should be the range of table like Olhausen with 1 1/2" rail heights".
If you measure less than 5/16" or more than 7/16" use the negative number as this would indicate bad angle and/or poor rail height.

I just drew this out with a protractor and ruler and the measurements seem to run pretty true. The actual distance change based on angle alone is so slight it makes no difference. The combination of rail height and angle works out as I listed above. I used standard rail heights of 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" and a 15 degree angle then checked by using 12 degree. There is overlap on the possible combinations right at 3/8".