All this talk about tight pockets.

[realkingcobra]

I'm just curious as to how many of you that talk about tight pockets on your tables at home, even know what makes a pocket tight? Do you know the difference in pocket angles, and their effects? Do you understand the effects the down angle and facings have when pocketing balls? Every time I rebuild a table for someone all I'm doing is Diamondizing the table I guess that's why I was wondering is all Further more, do you guys understand the difference in the types of cushions, Artemis, Super-speed, Accufast...K66 & K55 profiles? Slate shelf effect? Do you understand the differences between 4" and 4 1/2" pockets? Would you believe, if I wanted to, that I can make a 4 1/4" pocketed table play tighter than a 4" pocketed table, meaning the 4 1/4" pockets would reject the balls more than a 4" pocket!

I think most everyone on here is a little lost on what makes a table tight to play on, so tell me what you know and lets see

Glen, the "realkingcobra"

 

[realkingcobra]

Besides the red circle cue ball, what makes the Diamond 7ft bar table play better than the Valley and all the rest of the bar tables on the market today? Why are the pockets so much tighter on a Diamond 7ft with 4 1/2" pro pockets, when a Valley 7ft also has 4 1/2" corner pockets? Yes, I know, part of the reason is the Diamond has a deeper slate shelf, but there's more to it than that

Glen

 

[jsp]

I'm just curious as to how many of you that talk about tight pockets on your tables at home, even know what makes a pocket tight? Do you know the difference in pocket angles, and their effects? Do you understand the effects the down angle and facings have when pocketing balls? Every time I rebuild a table for someone all I'm doing is Diamondizing the table I guess that's why I was wondering is all Further more, do you guys understand the difference in the types of cushions, Artemis, Super-speed, Accufast...K66 & K55 profiles? Slate shelf effect? Do you understand the differences between 4" and 4 1/2" pockets? Would you believe, if I wanted to, that I can make a 4 1/4" pocketed table play tighter than a 4" pocketed table, meaning the 4 1/4" pockets would reject the balls more than a 4" pocket!

I think most everyone on here is a little lost on what makes a table tight to play on, so tell me what you know and lets see

Glen, the "realkingcobra"

Good topic.

I have a factory-made Diamond Pro with pro-cut pockets (supposedly). From point to point, the pockets measure slightly larger than two-balls' width. So they measure a bit larger than 4.5", however I feel they still play really tough, and I think that's mainly due to the pocket angles and deep shelf as opposed to the pocket opening width. Unless you slow roll the shot, I can't pocket a ball that hits the side rail going into the pocket, even if the ball hits inside the point. If I had to estimate, probably 85% of my misses (if they're close) on my table is by jawing/rattling the ball in the pocket as it hits the side rail coming in as opposed to missing by hitting the point (or outside the point) going straight in. I would guess a table with 4.25" pockets but with generous pocket angles and a shallower shelf would play easier overall than my table. But I'm no table mechanic, maybe I just suck.

 

[Da Bank]

Besides the red circle cue ball, what makes the Diamond 7ft bar table play better than the Valley and all the rest of the bar tables on the market today? Why are the pockets so much tighter on a Diamond 7ft with 4 1/2" pro pockets, when a Valley 7ft also has 4 1/2" corner pockets? Yes, I know, part of the reason is the Diamond has a deeper slate shelf, but there's more to it than that

Glen

Glen,

If you want to hear something pretty funny... I am playing the APA city tournament here in Dallas this weekend and it is all Diamond boxes with red circle cue balls. I cannot count the number of times people have complained about the cue balls being "mudballs" because they aren't the aramith magnetic balls that work in valleys. Also, I have heard reports of the tables being "bulls&*t" because they were too fast and that they roll funny because they slow rolled a ball down the slate and it was slightly off. My point is, most people don't have the slightest freaking CLUE how a good table is supposed to play.

The bright side to all of this is that playing on a fast Diamond is a huge advantage for muah in this tournament :thumbup:

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Glen

I really don't know how all of the variables affect the difficulty in pocketing balls on a table, which is why I am looking forward to your east coast trip, and the redo on my table.

T.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Roger Long wrote an interesting article in AZB on how to rate the tightness of pockets:
http://www.azbilliards.com/rogerlong/roger2.php

The article provided the following formula to rate the pocket tightness: OPENING X THROAT ÷ SHELF = RATING

The diagram isn't clear on how to measure the throat. When measuring the throat, I believe you want to measure the length, not the width.

Has anyone else found this formula to be useful in gauging pocket tightness?

 

[Tbeaux]

I'm just curious as to how many of you that talk about tight pockets on your tables at home, even know what makes a pocket tight?

Don't have a home table yet but I'll give it a try.

Do you know the difference in pocket angles, and their effects?

I know if the pocket cut angle is too far one way or the other balls tend to get rejected. Most equipment specs call for 141-142 degrees.

Do you understand the effects the down angle and facings have when pocketing balls?

I know down angle specs are 12- 15 degree and 15 should work the best for keeping the balls from flying. Facings are rubber material and according to spec should be 1/16" - 1/8" with 1/8" being preferred but from your discussions with OTLB 3/16" seems to work better when it comes to keeping the cloth from wearing through on the facing. Also thicker (3/16" to 1/4" ) facings can be used to "tighten up" the pockets on a "loose" table.

Every time I rebuild a table for someone all I'm doing is Diamondizing the table I guess that's why I was wondering is all Further more, do you guys understand the difference in the types of cushions, Artemis, Super-speed, Accufast...K66 & K55 profiles?

Mostly price but 100% real rubber (Artemis, ICON) seem to last longer. K66 is a "smaller" profile than K55 and the angle on the subrail will be different and the face of the subrail angle will be different. Substituting one for the other is a bad idea since it will change the size of the playing area and the nose height of the cushion.

Slate shelf effect?


Deeper the shelf more likely to "rattle balls" or have balls "hide". It is built in to the design of the slate and can be affected by what size pocket cut out was designated and pocket size. In other words with a large slate cutout the setback at the side of the pocket is closer to the setback at the center of the pocket. A smaller cutout radius "could" mean the balls could become "hidden" along the sides of the pocket while dropping normally in the center. Spec for setback is something like 1"- 2 1/2" (??) at center pocket. It also doesn't have much efect on side pockets. Slate shelf is much more complex than my answer indicates.

The slate pocket cutout is up to the manufacturer and how much thought they gave it.

Do you understand the differences between 4" and 4 1/2" pockets?


Measured from cushion nose points on both side of the pocket (called the mouth of the pocket). It is the actual "opening of the pocket". Since centerline of the ball is slightly lower than cushion nose height how much "actual area" is between the points is affected by the pocket face angle and the pocket cut angle. The back of the pocket cut angle is where "throat" is measured. Depending on the pocket size and the pocket cut angle determines throat. Throat can also affect the balls ability to pocket. It can also cause fired in balls to "launch".

Would you believe, if I wanted to, that I can make a 4 1/4" pocketed table play tighter than a 4" pocketed table, meaning the 4 1/4" pockets would reject the balls more than a 4" pocket!

Yes, I do believe this because of the things I mentioned above and a few more things I probably haven't thought of.

I think most everyone on here is a little lost on what makes a table tight to play on, so tell me what you know and lets see

I agree.

Glen, the "realkingcobra"

How'd I score Obi-Wan!

 

[CreeDo]

I only recently found some answers to this, and it was really eye-opening to me. It sort of blew my mind to understand that a wider angle for the opening = a tighter pocket. Now I know what happened when I rattle one and I can rate the pocket's toughness a little better even before I hit a ball on it.

 

[TX Poolnut]

I only recently found some answers to this, and it was really eye-opening to me. It sort of blew my mind to understand that a wider angle for the opening = a tighter pocket. Now I know what happened when I rattle one and I can rate the pocket's toughness a little better even before I hit a ball on it.

I agree. I have a table that rattles balls a lot. I kind of like it. It makes me cinch each shot, making potting a little easier when I go out on the town.

 

[8ballEinstein]

I have no idea what makes a pocket tight. I just know 'em when I play 'em. Of course, I've been known to miss a ball by a full diamond and then later claim that the pockets were tight.:grin:

 

[ykndoit]

I'm just curious as to how many of you that talk about tight pockets on your tables at home, even know what makes a pocket tight? Do you know the difference in pocket angles, and their effects? Do you understand the effects the down angle and facings have when pocketing balls? Every time I rebuild a table for someone all I'm doing is Diamondizing the table I guess that's why I was wondering is all Further more, do you guys understand the difference in the types of cushions, Artemis, Super-speed, Accufast...K66 & K55 profiles? Slate shelf effect? Do you understand the differences between 4" and 4 1/2" pockets? Would you believe, if I wanted to, that I can make a 4 1/4" pocketed table play tighter than a 4" pocketed table, meaning the 4 1/4" pockets would reject the balls more than a 4" pocket!

I think most everyone on here is a little lost on what makes a table tight to play on, so tell me what you know and lets see

Glen, the "realkingcobra"

I know that you should have a professional table mechanic, say YOU Glen, put new rails on your table instead of some guy that said he has done it before.... Because if you know its not done right, your table doesn't play the same and you will mentally blame your table on your misses instead of yourself.

I understand the basic concepts of the cloth, cushions, shelf depth, and cushion facing angles. I'm sure the angles of the cushions and pocket sizes(profile,down angle, pocket angle,shelf depth, and facing angle) are a little more complicated when different combinations are used together.

But if you ask average joepoolplayer, he couldn't tell you why valley tables swallow balls and diamonds wont.

Good topic Glen.

 

[bud green]

I learned the best way to tighten up pockets from some 10/hr Olhausen mechanics in San Diego.

Cut the pocket corners by hand with a cheap razor blade so they're real wavy and uneven. No measuring, just cut away freehand style like a true artist. Next you fold over the cloth real poorly and voila, even well struck balls will take funny angles of the pockets and spit out, shoot up in the air,etc...

Too bad my friend Rick suggested they actually at least get a ruler or some kind of straight edge or the whole pool hall could of had "players" tables lol.

 

[matcase]

The middle 2 1/4" of all pockets is the same size. Play whatever table your on the best you can, buy the kind of table that makes you happy. However, knowing your table is right would make you happiest. We need more info from the rkc

 

[Neil]

............

 

[JimS]

I'm listening......

 

[Johnnyt]

I'm just curious as to how many of you that talk about tight pockets on your tables at home, even know what makes a pocket tight? Do you know the difference in pocket angles, and their effects? Do you understand the effects the down angle and facings have when pocketing balls? Every time I rebuild a table for someone all I'm doing is Diamondizing the table I guess that's why I was wondering is all Further more, do you guys understand the difference in the types of cushions, Artemis, Super-speed, Accufast...K66 & K55 profiles? Slate shelf effect? Do you understand the differences between 4" and 4 1/2" pockets? Would you believe, if I wanted to, that I can make a 4 1/4" pocketed table play tighter than a 4" pocketed table, meaning the 4 1/4" pockets would reject the balls more than a 4" pocket!

I think most everyone on here is a little lost on what makes a table tight to play on, so tell me what you know and lets see

Glen, the "realkingcobra"

I might not know all the reasons pockets are tight, but I do know a tight..... when I get one. Johnnyt

 

[JimS]

I take it none of you have seen this article- http://www.azbilliards.com/rogerlong/roger2.php

You 'take it' correctly... I, for one, had not seen that article. Thanks for the link.

NO mention of the down angle of the pocket facing was made in that article.

I"m still listening... carefully! :groucho:

 

[realkingcobra]

How'd I score Obi-Wan!

Real close but you missed the down angles and what's the difference between a Valley and a Diamond bar box, not counting the slate shelf

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

Roger Long wrote an interesting article in AZB on how to rate the tightness of pockets:
http://www.azbilliards.com/rogerlong/roger2.php

The article provided the following formula to rate the pocket tightness: OPENING X THROAT ÷ SHELF = RATING

The diagram isn't clear on how to measure the throat. When measuring the throat, I believe you want to measure the length, not the width.

Has anyone else found this formula to be useful in gauging pocket tightness?

The artical summerizes the pockets kind of well. but overlook the effects of the down angles in the pockets the facings and their effect on pocketing balls thus the difference between an Olhausen and a Brunswick with the exact same pocket shelf and pocket angles, as in of they were identical in design, they'd still play different, with the Olhausen rejecting more balls in the corner pockets than the Brunswick yet by his formula for rating, would rate the tables both with the same rating.

Glen

 

[crawfish]

I have to tell you, I thought this thread was a totally different situation.