Amateur or Pro has nothing to do with ability
- Thread starter B_White
- Start date
I guess I haven't read every post in hear, but it seems like a lot of the same points are being made in the ones that I did read. Maybe someone has already said this, but if not here goes.
The amateur events are fine, go ahead and exclude people from them. However (and this is a BIG however), it should be known that a large percentage of the amateur money will be used to fund the open event.
I think that is a major problem with this sport on all levels, and deserves a discussion all to itself. Mark Griffin's plan to start a league that will essentially fund a pro tour is a step in the right direction. As far as I'm concerned the current set up doesn't allow for incentives to get better (I know this has been stated several times). The players in the lowest levels are playing for virtually the same money that the top amateurs are playing for.
This makes for a horrible system that pays to sandbag into a lower division. As far as I'm concerned the lowest level should pay virtually nothing (if not actually nothing with just a trophy) and the next level should pay out more for 4th place than the lower division did for 1st.
Now I realize that you are talking about an amateur tour that involves all of the amateurs. It seems to me that this tour should pay for the open events. The amateur events shouldn't have any added money, in fact much of the money paid in should go to the open event to add to their money. As this feeds to more open players (which it will because there is a lot more money there), the open will feed into the pro events, adding money to them. They say that crap rolls down hill, well the money should flow up hill.
The problem with this system of course is that even if you could get it going, someone else will come along and offer the amateur players more money and the amateurs will stop playing in this tour. Effectively cutting off the pro players money supply and once again killing the sport.
Just one opinion, that may or may not work. But I doubt it, there is always one person with a narrow view that will ruin everything so that they can make a buck for themselves.:sorry:
The amateur events are fine, go ahead and exclude people from them. However (and this is a BIG however), it should be known that a large percentage of the amateur money will be used to fund the open event.
I think that is a major problem with this sport on all levels, and deserves a discussion all to itself. Mark Griffin's plan to start a league that will essentially fund a pro tour is a step in the right direction. As far as I'm concerned the current set up doesn't allow for incentives to get better (I know this has been stated several times). The players in the lowest levels are playing for virtually the same money that the top amateurs are playing for.
This makes for a horrible system that pays to sandbag into a lower division. As far as I'm concerned the lowest level should pay virtually nothing (if not actually nothing with just a trophy) and the next level should pay out more for 4th place than the lower division did for 1st.
Now I realize that you are talking about an amateur tour that involves all of the amateurs. It seems to me that this tour should pay for the open events. The amateur events shouldn't have any added money, in fact much of the money paid in should go to the open event to add to their money. As this feeds to more open players (which it will because there is a lot more money there), the open will feed into the pro events, adding money to them. They say that crap rolls down hill, well the money should flow up hill.
The problem with this system of course is that even if you could get it going, someone else will come along and offer the amateur players more money and the amateurs will stop playing in this tour. Effectively cutting off the pro players money supply and once again killing the sport.
Just one opinion, that may or may not work. But I doubt it, there is always one person with a narrow view that will ruin everything so that they can make a buck for themselves.:sorry:
Okay, Im gonna throw myself to the wolves by saying this, but here goes... As I have stated, I personally enjoy the amateur events because I feel I have a chance at winning. I will still playing in the open events as well, because I feel if I play well, I can cash...not win, but cash and I am always willing to challenge myself. Now, the amateur debate aside, I think another reason open events are diminishing is because (and I am not referring to Mike Janis here) some tournie directors rape the money. Not to mention names, but I recently played in an open event that was $2500 added with entry fees ranging from $60-$150. Stevie Moore got 3rd place and received $300! That is pitiful and may also contribute to the lack of participation....JMO.
Southpaw
Southpaw
Southpaw said:
I think that if I was playing in a tourney with a guaranteed $2500 added and I saw that 3rd place only payed 300...I would be doing some math to figure out exactly how much money was actually being paid back. Unless of course first place was guaranteed a large amount no matter what...that could make a low turnout very top heavy in prize money.
If not though, even if only 12 people showed up and you paid 50-30-20 and the TD kept ALL of the entry money...third should get paid $500. I would certainly figure out exactly how much that TD was taking, and I would make it well known to everyone that I knew and ran into, whether I thought it was fair or unfair.
In my opinion if a TD has nothing to hide they will not be angry with me telling people exactly what they are doing. If they are being unfair, the players should know, so that someone else can step in and take the place of the failing tour.
Russ Chewning said:
Russ,
You have no idea what you are talking about. Brian is simply saying that now that there are regional amateur tourneys, the attendance is way off in the open events for obvious reasons. Joe Donator will no longer pay to play in the open event when he can play in the amateur event against lesser talent. All Brian is saying is that at some point the regional open events will cease to exist because there will only be a few players left to play on them thereby making it worthless for tours to have them.
When this happens, then all players that are Brian's speed will have no outlet to play. Sure, you will say play in the UPA events, World events, etc... Well it would take tens of thousands of dollars to travel and play in those events and there are only a handful of players that can consistently do that.
I have always said that if pool isn't paying the bills then the players should get a job and I'm sure that if push comes to shove then Brian will most definitely provide for his family in another fashion, but for you and others to say he is just being sour because he can't play on the amateur tours is just plain wrong and you missed his entire point.
corvette1340 said:
Well geez, how could I possibly argue with this?
Oh yes, COMPLETELY obvious.
I suppose the closing of pool halls left and right is also because of more amateur events, eh?And the fact that pool cues are selling for less and less money, if one can sell them at all, is also to be blamed on more amateur events.
This kind of "ZOMG, the sky is fallling!" talk in which people presume to know the reason why bad things are happening in the billiard community just pizzes me off. There are any number of cultural reasons why people may not wish to go to open events and go two and out.
It's a lot more fun to sit at home and play Guitar Hero with your buds then get mudstomped in an open tourney.
It's more EXPENSIVE to go halfway across the state to compete in an open event with gas and hotel costs, so people either STAY HOME, or choose to go to a tournament they have SOME chance in.
Face it, people... Our society is just becoming less and less interested in pool. If you people don't get some perspective and recognize we HAVE to encourage the lower level amateurs to keep competing by providing them tournaments where they have a chance, then before long, you won't HAVE any lower level players, and everyone will be staying at home playing World of Warcraft.
We are living in a society where people can get many forms of very cheap entertainment in their homes 24 hours a day, and the "allure" of being in a smokey pool hall competing for 10th place, if they play VERY WELL is just not that attractive.
If you want to blame someone for the reduction in attendance of open events, blame Joe Everyman, for being more interested in YouTube that a nice 9 ball runout.
You guys should consider yourselves lucky that promoters are even taking the time to form ANY tours, Open OR Amateur.
Vette, you say I "don't know what I am talking about." I could say the same to you. You are so entrenched in the pool subculture that you have little inkling as to how the rest of society, and especially the newer developing amateur players, see the community.
Russ
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Oh and by the way the GSBT stop in Hickory a couple of weeks ago had 45 players in the open division even though Larry (the truth ) Nevel was in attendance. Guess who was not there-Bwizzle or any of the Columbia SC top dogs who used to be at every stop close enough to drive to in 2 or 3 hours, the NC capitol city only had a couple to show up also. So either it is the gas situation or reluctance to face such stiff competition as the Truth week in week out. I like the chance to play in both and hope to get barred from amateur events one of these years.--Leonard
Russ, you are right. Woe is us. Anybody who plays well enough to play the ghost, but not Archer's speed should quit and take up competitive marbles. While I agree that amateur tourneys are absolutely not the only reason that open numbers are down, you would have to be brain dead not to realize that is is a huge factor. As for room closings and expenses, that is just a sad fact of finances these days, and aren't compartmentalized just to pool. But as far as youtube and guitar hero go, if you prefer that, thats cool, but I doubt that it will make up your mind as to the type of tourneys you play in, lol. Thank goodness not everybody has a defeatist attitude-Matt
muttley76 said:
Not really sure how I have a defeatist attitude. I am the guy who is going to show up at the Viking and King's Bay Amateur tournaments until the time I am asked to step up, and then I gladly will. I will be competing (donating) in the Open tournaments as well during this time period.
I understand the need for Amateur events. I understand the need for Open events. I have been in states that MIGHT have a B and below tournament once a year (Washington state), and every single other tournament in the state was Open.
I know that Florida has PLENTY of Open tournaments. They also have plenty of Amateur events. I'd just like to see the people complaining about how they can't compete in the Amateur events practice a bit harder, and play in the many Open events that are available down here. I plan to.
Russ
Russ, my real point is that it suprises me you don't see any logic in any of Brian's or Vette's posts, even if you disagree with the overall message. And FWIW, I also donate to any and all open events, like the DCC and music city, etc.:grin: . Somebody has to put some cash in the better players pocket's, might as well be me:smile:
muttley76 said:
No worries, simply two differing viewpoints. I am just saying there are plenty of Open tourneys, regardless of whether their fields are smaller. If some of these guys have been told to step up to the next level, and that next level has smaller fields, then it ought to be easier to cash.
But these guys aren't cashing all that much at the next level.
To tell the God's honest truth here, I think that Brian was just comfortable beating on the lesser players, and doesn't like having to compete against the pros. I think that all this talk about the smaller fields is just sour grapes that he is no longer allowed to compete where he feels comfortable.
I used to travel all over the state of Washington to find the toughest weekly and weekend tournaments could find.
If Brian is truly in it for the competition, then there are plenty of tournaments out there for him, shorter fields or not. If he just wants the competition, he'll travel to find the best players he can to compete against.
Someone else mentioned they haven't seen Brian at the local tournaments he could have competed in. It seems to me he doesn't like being dead money any more than the amateurs he used to beat up on.
Russ
When has Brian ever competed in an amateur tourney? And as far as not being at the other tourney, I know why he wasn't there-he wasn't in the state-not even within two states. I've played in 20 or so TOUGH open events, that Brian played in as well, but was unaware that he robbed amateur tourneys. When/where were they?
Russ, you are still missing his point. He NEVER said he was told he couldnt play in any amateur event, he is simply saying that since the amateur events have come along, the number of participants in the open events has dropped...thats all. I agree with him to an extent, but I will continue to play in both types of events. I do feel there are other factors tht has caused the decline in participation which I already stated in an earlier post in this thread. Brian is a good friend of mine and I know he does still travel around and gamble, so he may not always be at home when a tourney does come through.
Southpaw
Southpaw
thats why there is only one pro am tour ill play in, look at the payout from all the other tours where is all the money goingSouthpaw said: