An honest question for pool instructors

[mantis99]

Randy,
That answer seems odd to me. Maybe I am missing something. I would assume that most of the players you see are "C" players at school.

I think this post is an interesting question. To me, it asks the question of how good a current "C" player can ever really hope to be. Can you look at someone and quickly ascertain their potential. I have often wondered howmany people have made to the pros with and without instruction. Is instruction something that most pros have had a great deal of. I heard Allen Hopkins say he ran 10 balls the first time he picked up a cue. I find that hard to believe, but maybe some people just have it. I know that in most professional sports (Baseball, football, basketball, tennis etc), great coahing and instruction is a vital part of making to the next level. Is that true in pool also? I am a big proponent of lessons. I have not had the pleasure of taking a series of good lessons, and feel that limits my current potential. Maybe not though, maybe a lack of natural talent, a full time job, and 2 small kids leaves me destined to be a "C" player forever. I sure hope not though. I would love to at least be a "B" player. I guess my overall question would be, how good can the average player expect to become with a series of good lessons and a reasonable amount of dedication (due to their other priorities)?

Maybe some of the answer lies in looking at SVB and Lori Jon Jones. They began at very young ages and had considerable instruction, and are or were some of the best players out there. Jeanette Lee started much later, yet still rose to the top. I believe she played an awful lot though. Who knows. I am sure some are more talented than others.

 

[cubc]

Randy,
That answer seems odd to me. Maybe I am missing something. I would assume that most of the players you see are "C" players at school.

I think this post is an interesting question. To me, it asks the question of how good a current "C" player can ever really hope to be. Can you look at someone and quickly ascertain their potential. I have often wondered howmany people have made to the pros with and without instruction. Is instruction something that most pros have had a great deal of. I heard Allen Hopkins say he ran 10 balls the first time he picked up a cue. I find that hard to believe, but maybe some people just have it. I know that in most professional sports (Baseball, football, basketball, tennis etc), great coahing and instruction is a vital part of making to the next level. Is that true in pool also? I am a big proponent of lessons. I have not had the pleasure of taking a series of good lessons, and feel that limits my current potential. Maybe not though, maybe a lack of natural talent, a full time job, and 2 small kids leaves me destined to be a "C" player forever. I sure hope not though. I would love to at least be a "B" player. I guess my overall question would be, how good can the average player expect to become with a series of good lessons and a reasonable amount of dedication (due to their other priorities)?

Maybe some of the answer lies in looking at SVB and Lori Jon Jones. They began at very young ages and had considerable instruction, and are or were some of the best players out there. Jeanette Lee started much later, yet still rose to the top. I believe she played an awful lot though. Who knows. I am sure some are more talented than others.

see this is what i was wondering. He worded it much better than i. And yea jeanette lee played over 80 hrs a week she said.

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[JoeyA]

Directed more towards the BCA Master instructors and what not.

How many male players have you given lessons to that started out as a C player or worse and are now on the pro tour or a top level competitor in nationwide events like Reno, IPT, US Open, etc.?

Not interested in people already of that status that ask for a lesson or polishing of any sort. Nor am I interested in women players because they generally dont have to be that great to go pro. (dont flame for that. just deal with it). Just interested in c'ish players that have taken the knowledge and catapulted to national level competition.

Thanks,
C

One thing that you have to take into consideration is how many pro tour or top level competitors there are. I would imagine it is an extremely small percentage of all of the players out there. If any C players did become top level competitors the number of them would be very small.

Your question doesn't serve justice to the quality pool instruction that some pool instructors provide. There are not that many C players in the world that will ever become top level competitors with or without "BCA Master Instructors or what". There just aren't that many top level competitors. I'm sure the number is far less than one in one hundred. It might be one in a thousand or one in ten thousand that become top level players regardless of who helps their game. You can be assured that they all have been helped by someone. There are not that many pool instructors that have ever played professional pool but even those individuals serve a valuable purpose. The ones who not only teach pool but also play at a professional level are rare indeed.


I hope you are simply being curious but I'm not sure of your motives. Certainly some instructors would take umbrage at your insinuation.

JoeyA

 

[jimmyg]

Jeannette Lee had some pretty heavy instruction during her rise to the top! And it wasn't just a lesson, it was daily or almost daily coaching.
Think Bobby Hunter, George Breedlove, and not positive on this one- Gene Nagy.

Absolutely Gene Nagy. At Le Q, in Maspeth, Queens. Used to play with
(actually rack for) Gene fairly often before I moved from NY. Gene spent a lot of time with Jeanette.

Jim

 

[pooltchr]

CUBC,
The reasons there are very few C players that make it to pro level very, but I suspect motivation and dedication would be a couple. There isn't a lot of money for pro players, so making a good living as a pool player is tough. One would have to give up a lot, and work full time practicing, paying their expenses to travel to tournaments where anything other than a top two or three finish, might just cover expenses. It's also a lot of hard work, long late hours in a pool room, little time for family, putting lots of miles on the road, etc. I think most C players understand that the reward for all that effort isn't that great. Yes, we all want to be the best we can be, but most of us need a little more balance in our lives. Those rare few who can handle it, can do ok at the pro level, but they are a very small percentage. Personally, the greatest percentage of students that I see are the mid level league players who want to move up to the top in their league, and win some local and maybe even regional tournaments. As Randy pointed out, the ones who are already pros are looking for any little thing that can give them the edge at their level.
That's just the way I see it.
Steve

 

[Johnnyt]

IMO someone that starts off at an early age and has some natural talent should be able to become a B player on his own...or even an A player. But they better work hard at it and practice at least 4 hours a day or more. Then enter tournaments to see where their at. Playing for money is just about a must to get to the pro level. Johnnyt

 

[mantis99]

JoeyA,

I think you are misreading his intentions by the post. Read my post above, and then his response. All he seems to be asking is how much better the average C player can hope to become with good instruction. I do not think he is taking a shot at any instructors. I think he recongnizes that very few people will ever make it to the top, but pooltchrs response pointed that out well. The question was not for instructors to validate themselves by having people make it to the pros, but to answer the question as to whether or not the currently average player could still rise to the top with high level instruction. I also asked if most or all pros have had lessons (as I would assume they have) i norder to make it to the top.

 

[randyg]

Randy,
That answer seems odd to me. Maybe I am missing something. I would assume that most of the players you see are "C" players at school.

I think this post is an interesting question. To me, it asks the question of how good a current "C" player can ever really hope to be. Can you look at someone and quickly ascertain their potential. I have often wondered howmany people have made to the pros with and without instruction. Is instruction something that most pros have had a great deal of. I heard Allen Hopkins say he ran 10 balls the first time he picked up a cue. I find that hard to believe, but maybe some people just have it. I know that in most professional sports (Baseball, football, basketball, tennis etc), great coahing and instruction is a vital part of making to the next level. Is that true in pool also? I am a big proponent of lessons. I have not had the pleasure of taking a series of good lessons, and feel that limits my current potential. Maybe not though, maybe a lack of natural talent, a full time job, and 2 small kids leaves me destined to be a "C" player forever. I sure hope not though. I would love to at least be a "B" player. I guess my overall question would be, how good can the average player expect to become with a series of good lessons and a reasonable amount of dedication (due to their other priorities)?

Maybe some of the answer lies in looking at SVB and Lori Jon Jones. They began at very young ages and had considerable instruction, and are or were some of the best players out there. Jeanette Lee started much later, yet still rose to the top. I believe she played an awful lot though. Who knows. I am sure some are more talented than others.

The real "C" Player does not understand the value of lessons (in any sport). It's the higher level player trying to get better.....SPF=randyg

 

[randyg]

IMO someone that starts off at an early age and has some natural talent should be able to become a B player on his own...or even an A player. But they better work hard at it and practice at least 4 hours a day or more. Then enter tournaments to see where their at. Playing for money is just about a must to get to the pro level. Johnnyt

FANTASTIC....SPF=randyg

 

[randyg]

One thing that you have to take into consideration is how many pro tour or top level competitors there are. I would imagine it is an extremely small percentage of all of the players out there. If any C players did become top level competitors the number of them would be very small.

Your question doesn't serve justice to the quality pool instruction that some pool instructors provide. There are not that many C players in the world that will ever become top level competitors with or without "BCA Master Instructors or what". There just aren't that many top level competitors. I'm sure the number is far less than one in one hundred. It might be one in a thousand or one in ten thousand that become top level players regardless of who helps their game. You can be assured that they all have been helped by someone. There are not that many pool instructors that have ever played professional pool but even those individuals serve a valuable purpose. The ones who not only teach pool but also play at a professional level are rare indeed.


I hope you are simply being curious but I'm not sure of your motives. Certainly some instructors would take umbrage at your insinuation.

JoeyA

TAP TAP TAP
Listen to Joey. He knows.....SPF=randyg

 

[Scott Lee]

The real "C" Player does not understand the value of lessons (in any sport). It's the higher level player trying to get better.....SPF=randyg

...but they SURE understand the value (or lack thereof) of spending $500+ on a cuestick, that they can't work well!

They just don't know what they don't know!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Flex]

... and if 99% of these "world class players" would get off of their asses and give back to the sport, then maybe that would change. I wouldn't advise holding your breath waiting for that to happen, so in the meantime - we're all that pool has.

Tap, tap, tap.

There's a well known player/hustler in the Chicago area who is a master at sharking and pulling dirty tricks when he needs to. He's downright treacherous. No names mentioned.

Some time ago, he and one of his fish had a major, big time falling out, in front of maybe 20 sweators, who witnessed the beginning of a match where said hustler gave up the nuts, literally, but didn't realize it until the fourth or fifth shot into the match. At that point, he pulled out the dirty tricks.

The match was called off after the first game.

As time has gone on, said hustler never misses an opportunity to tell others who now are feeding his former fish to never let him have a shot.

He wonders why people don't want to take lessons from him...

If he is symptomatic of some others out there, with the exception of people like you, Blackjack, and Mark Wilson, and other top notch professionals who now teach, it's no wonder the world class instruction is apparently limited to a relatively small number of people.

My hat's off to you, Blackjack.

Flex

 

[seymore15074]

JoeyA,

I think you are misreading his intentions by the post. Read my post above, and then his response. All he seems to be asking is how much better the average C player can hope to become with good instruction. I do not think he is taking a shot at any instructors. I think he recongnizes that very few people will ever make it to the top, but pooltchrs response pointed that out well. The question was not for instructors to validate themselves by having people make it to the pros, but to answer the question as to whether or not the currently average player could still rise to the top with high level instruction. I also asked if most or all pros have had lessons (as I would assume they have) i norder to make it to the top.

Exactly! Not one person has address the question that was asked.

 

[kaznj]

I think an interesting question is what is a lesson? I have spoken to many good players say B+ and above who say they never took a lesson. But, they played much better players for money so they could learn from what the better player did. If I paid someone $50 to teach me how to play patterns in 9 ball everyone would call that a lesson. If I played the same person a race to 7 for $50 knowing I have no chance to beat him, but I would watch and learn from everything he did, that is not a lesson? This does not answer the original question, but I think it adds to the discussion.
I have been a public school teacher for 30 years. I believe if you have the ability and are given the chance to learn,then you will learn. But, you can't put a quart into a pint. No matter how much I tried or took lessons as a kid I would never dunk a basketball, throw a 90 mile fast ball, or run 400 balls. Janette Lee has the skill and was given the opportunity. She made it to the top.

 

[Williebetmore]

While I think pool instructors are needed in the pool world, I don't think you can equate the "teachers" that help Tiger Woods with his game and most of the pool instructors that teach pool. The "teachers" that work with Tiger are or have been world class and professional players themselves.

JoeyA

Joey,
I don't believe I can think of very many golf instructors who have been "world class" players or even touring pro's for that matter. Butch Harmon, Rick Smith, Bob Toski, Harvey Penick, David Ledbetter (the most famous instructors) are strictly club pro level players. Dave Pelz (the "best-selling" teacher) is strictly an average amateur player.

While there may be some former touring pro's that give lessons; the famous instructors are all instructors first and players a distant second.

P.S. - Mark Wilson IS a former touring pro pool player; and was a member of several Mosconi Cup teams (are you wanting teachers to play better than that?).

 

[Williebetmore]

... and if 99% of these "world class players" would get off of their asses and give back to the sport, then maybe that would change. I wouldn't advise holding your breath waiting for that to happen, so in the meantime - we're all that pool has.

BJDS,
Hey, here's a vignette from last weeks straight pool league. George Breedlove finishes an 11 hour work day; comes straight to pool league without eating dinner; plays and wins a match to 250; then spends 45 minutes giving some pointers to his opponent (free of charge) before heading off to eat.

Jeanette Lee often does the same. We are very lucky to have them in the league.

 

[Flex]

I think an interesting question is what is a lesson? I have spoken to many good players say B+ and above who say they never took a lesson. But, they played much better players for money so they could learn from what the better player did. If I paid someone $50 to teach me how to play patterns in 9 ball everyone would call that a lesson. If I played the same person a race to 7 for $50 knowing I have no chance to beat him, but I would watch and learn from everything he did, that is not a lesson? This does not answer the original question, but I think it adds to the discussion.

I think lessons may come in many different forms. One is the formal lesson for a set period of time. Whether one pays for it or not is immaterial. It's the structured format that is a part of it. However, if a teaching pro who is nationally recognized plays pool with someone for three hours, and gives the person some tips along the way, would that count as a lesson? Perhaps, but I don't think so. It may just be bait for the person to take a lesson.

However, if that same instructor on the following day comes over and says you have some problems with your stroke, and asks you to set up some shots and shoot them, and after two or three shots stops you when you are getting down on the ball, and says, look at where your hand is placed on the butt, look at the angle of your forearm, and shows you it's forward of perpendicular by a few inches, and then he suggests you move your hand backwards a few inches to achieve perpendicularity, and then he tells you that your stroke should be a bit longer, and that the tip of the cue should go through the cue ball and end up near the cloth five inches in front of where the cue ball was, and he tells you to stroke three slow practice strokes, to smooth out your backswing and slow it down, and to pause, and recheck everything before the final stroke, and he tells you how your eye movements should be and so on, and then he sets up an easy shot for you to focus on your stroke and making what he just showed you second nature, and asks you to give his ideas a good 7 to 10 days to really kick in, to please do him that favor, would one not reasonably conclude that those ten minutes of "tips" were in fact a lesson, and a most valuable one?

IMHO, those ten minutes were one heck of a lesson...

That instructor laid the foundation for a precise, repeatable stroke, that has plenty of power when needed without any special extra effort.

When one considers that this instructor didn't charge for that lesson, I think it's pretty obvious that he's a gem. Of course he wants the student to come back and take more lessons, and his fee is well worth the value received, but his commitment to the sport and his desire to see others really improve is most apparent.

How good is he?

Well, if Jeanette Lee went to see him to work on her stroke, he must be good.

He relies on word of mouth advertising, and doesn't post here.

If anybody wants his name, just send me a PM, or ask here...

Flex

P.S. Is he able to take an "average" player and turn them into a pro? I don't know. That would depend not only on his instruction, but on the effort and abilities and work and dedication of the student. If memory serves, Justin Bergman took lessons from him.

 

[Blackjack]

BJDS,
Hey, here's a vignette from last weeks straight pool league. George Breedlove finishes an 11 hour work day; comes straight to pool league without eating dinner; plays and wins a match to 250; then spends 45 minutes giving some pointers to his opponent (free of charge) before heading off to eat.

Jeanette Lee often does the same. We are very lucky to have them in the league.

IMO, we need more people like the Breedlove's associated with our game.

 

[Jaden]

training.

It comes from the dedication of the trainee, not necessarily the trainer. I did start teaching a C player right at the time that pool hall junkies came out. Although right now he is in Iraq, he has come to the point of almost being a world class player. He is one of only three people to break and run all 7 racks in the Vegas APA tourny. HE's beaten players like Deo and Brian Parks in tournament play also. He probably will end up being a touring pro. The problem with it though is that he is like my brother and I didn't charge him for the lessons I gave him. If I had charged him for all of the knowledge that I've imparted him, it would have cost him agregious amounts of lesson time over about a year and a half. plus, with practice time going into multiple hours a day multiple days a week. The knowledge that you can get from having a good instructor does NOT mitigate the hours you have to put in effectively utilizing that knowledge.

In other words, don't expect to find an instructor who has taken a C player to an A+ level and get a few lessons from him and become an A+ player yourself. It takes dedication talent and good visual sptial ability to get to the top of the billiard world and simply a LOT of PRACTICE