An open conversation on what pool in North America needs and can support.

American pro soccer barely exists and yet it's one of the most popular kids' sports. No parent has ever said to their 12-year-old "don't play soccer after school kid because you can't make a living from being a pro soccer player." And yet that was exactly the reason you gave for criticizing a focus on youth pool.

You bring up a good point showing how high the hurdle is to reach any kind of mainstream success. If pro Soccer can't break through with all it has going for it who are we really kidding talking about pro pool?

LOL...pretty much a thread stopper when you think about it like that. Pool in the U.S. will find its own level and always be a niche sport. Thats not to say cool things couldn't be done and more interest brought to the game but the glory days are long gone. If we are real lucky we get another boom at some point from a movie. Archery got a big one with the Hunger games franchise. Someone call Scorsese and tell him to go make Color of Money 2.
 
Bless Harry for trying but that plan has been very close to being ready to go for almost a decade. Harry is a smart man but I don't see how he could compete with established fantasy sports sites on the one hand and casino corporations on the other. Would be great to see him do it but playing in the online betting pool is pretty tough.

No way would something that only takes bets on pool last very long. So it means he needs to take action on more popular games. Which means he is now competing with Caesars, Boyd, MGM and the rest. Good luck with that.

There's action betting right now on William Hill problem is we in the US cant bet a pop up comes up identifying the IP address there's ways to get around that for those in the know


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There's action betting right now on William Hill problem is we in the US cant bet a pop up comes up identifying the IP address there's ways to get around that for those in the know


1

I know different euro books will take action on the Mosconi Cup. Surprised they would book the Open. How are they doing it?
 
The Tug and Pull of economics

Having been involved in a room I can tell you that the Tug and Pull of economics where it concerns itself with the cost of floor space, the cost of resaleable goods, labor and equipment to make the money with....Pool needs to be $12 and hour minimum based on the numbers that come play in order for the owner to do what he needs to and that just isnt happening in my area of the country. People complain at $4 an hour and their complaints are real and based on what they are earning.

The number of accomplished players is down and the number of Pool Leaguers is way up but they cant seem spend enough to be of any great support. Not to say that they dont support but in the scenario where a table cost you 8 thousand what do you imagine a payment on something like this is? How much revenue do you think that table will generate in a month? How much floor space is the table taking up? How much are you paying for those square feet? How much is it going to be to heat and cool your pool space?

If you take everything into consideration, you probably won't go into any business with Pool tables involved. So when you start talking about what do we do to save the sport you have to come to grips with the reality that no matter what you charge your players there is a limit on what they can spend and the pool table area will end up being subsidized by the bar and food service ends of the business.

The realization is that the same space you would use for Pool Tables might be better used as empty space for meetings, get togethers , catering functions etc. If you're concerned with making money.

The Pool Leaguers are a help but the amount that they can bring in will not support the cost of new equipment that is recovered as often as it should be. The numbers just dont reflect it. Where I am the league fee is $8 and when you count up what they spend on average above that its about $5 dollars and most of them only come once a week for their match.

All of this drivel means that.....the fan base....is created of a demographic that probably doenst care much about Pro Pool. Thats the ultimate point. You have to find a way to build a fan base that has some money to spend, is over a large area and marketplace in order to get the job done in terms of providing steady enough support for any endeavor involving seeding money for pro events.
 
You bring up a good point showing how high the hurdle is to reach any kind of mainstream success. If pro Soccer can't break through with all it has going for it who are we really kidding talking about pro pool?

LOL...pretty much a thread stopper when you think about it like that. Pool in the U.S. will find its own level and always be a niche sport. Thats not to say cool things couldn't be done and more interest brought to the game but the glory days are long gone. If we are real lucky we get another boom at some point from a movie. Archery got a big one with the Hunger games franchise. Someone call Scorsese and tell him to go make Color of Money 2.

I did a live audio/video biography/interview/of Fats life with Evelyn at her home in Dowell IL 1996. I planned it out and started the interview from the time they first met. Where she worked, who she worked with. How important Fried Chicken was in Fats life....when, where they got married, when, where they first made love, his sisters death, and what life was like back before WWI. Evelyn also at the end said she might of killed Wanderone Sr. (not intentionally mind you, but she mentioned that she never told Fats that it was a possibility). I did this live interview 6 weeks after the fat man passed. Find someone who'd wanna put this together, there's allot of info out there about him. Fat's once intentionally pissed on a womans leg.:thumbup: This movie could restart the industry.
 
Its a story worth telling

I did a live audio/video biography/interview/of Fats life with Evelyn at her home in Dowell IL 1996. I planned it out and started the interview from the time they first met. Where she worked, who she worked with. How important Fried Chicken was in Fats life....when, where they got married, when, where they first made love, his sisters death, and what life was like back before WWI. Evelyn also at the end said she might of killed Wanderone Sr. (not intentionally mind you, but she mentioned that she never told Fats that it was a possibility). I did this live interview 6 weeks after the fat man passed. Find someone who'd wanna put this together, there's allot of info out there about him. Fat's once intentionally pissed on a womans leg.:thumbup: This movie could restart the industry.

With all the digital capabilities we have today? Its a story worth telling that for sure, please dont let it get lost.

Im hunting family information right now, its hard to reinvent it.
 
With all the digital capabilities we have today? Its a story worth telling that for sure, please dont let it get lost.

Im hunting family information right now, its hard to reinvent it.

Ditto that. Don't lose the tape!



Is the question:
what does "The Industry" need?
or
what does " pro pool" need?

They are intertwined but they are not one and the same.
The industry will do well if pro pool does well, but the industry can also do well without it.
Pro pool doesn't have to exist at all, and there would still be millions of players around the world, and the companies to provide them with equipment.

So ask yourself this question: if pro pool monetarily benefits only pro players and the industry, why does anybody else care?


The answer you give is what pro pool needs.
 
Ditto that. Don't lose the tape!



Is the question:
what does "The Industry" need?
or
what does " pro pool" need?

They are intertwined but they are not one and the same.
The industry will do well if pro pool does well, but the industry can also do well without it.
Pro pool doesn't have to exist at all, and there would still be millions of players around the world, and the companies to provide them with equipment.

So ask yourself this question: if pro pool monetarily benefits only pro players and the industry, why does anybody else care?


The answer you give is what pro pool needs.
Play increased from 30 ta 40 million after Color of Money, the industry road that horse for a GOOD 10 years.
 
From it's rise in popularity (in the U.S.) up until the 1940s and 50s, professional billiards was cultivated, organized, managed and marketed primarily by billiard companies. Brunswick in particular. And then for a short while by the BCA. But neither anymore.

Since that time we have seen a plethora of individual promoters, events and organizations rise and fall. Some do stay a while, but most fail.

Why?

Not enough players out there?
Pool is dead?
Pool players too cheap?
Nobody wants to watch?

No.

Pool is nowhere near dead, as illustrated by the vast number of active leagues, local tours and even large events going on ALL year round. You'd be hard pressed to find a weekend in the U.S. without a tournament going on somewhere.

The money is there too, regardless of how cheap the average pool player might be.
Add up the entry fees of just the major events in the U.S. and you'll find hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent. And tens of thousands more being spent on lodging, gas and food for these events. Pool players as a group spend quite a bit of money.

The problem is, as Brunswick, and ultimately the BCA, stopped managing pro pool, the pro pool pie got splintered into a hundred small pieces. Now, instead of one big successful professional organization, you have a hundred small ones, all with their own ideas and standards, trying to squeak by on the little money they can get.

As Justin and Cleary both wisely pointed out, a successful plan for pro pool will have to, by necessity, involve the "masses" to be able to justify it's own existence. It will not survive on 1/100th of the pool pie.

The least expensive solution, but not the only solution, would be to utilize the league systems and local tours that are already in place. (With some obvious changes)

The venues are already there, the players already play there, the operators and owners already have plenty of players that do not need to be solicited or marketed to, they already love pool, and there are tens of thousands of them all across the land.
(Usually no need for them to travel very far either)

Also, using existing leagues and tours would allow everyone that is currently involved (rooms, operators, etc) to keep their job and keep making the money they are already making. Likewise the average player would not have to spend much more than they already are. This supports the industry at the most grass roots level - the common player and common room owner.

1. Set up a pro players organization with modest dues.
Players answer to a governing body and promoters association.

2. Set up or "fix" the governing body, to set and enforce standards and keep records.
Governing body answers to player's association and promoters association.

3. Set up a promoter's association. (if the governing body isn't promoting events)
Promoters/venue owners answer to players association and governing body.


Governing body establishes standards by which any large enough (non handicapped) amateur league, tour, or event can be "sanctioned" as an official qualifier for a new "American championship".

Perhaps place a limit of 15-20 sanctioned qualifiers to make sure they stay in high demand.

The top winner of each sanctioned league system, tour, or event will qualify to play in a "final championship" against established pros.
These players will also get to "represent" the organization, tour, or event that brought them there. Again, support at the grass roots level.


Then, create a pro pool "season" leading up to the new American championship.
A "pro tour" if you prefer to call it that.
8 "regular season" events, one each month, Feb - Sept.
ALL professionally recorded and broadcast.
(çoming back to this subject in a minute)

In October the final championship will be held. All the qualified players from the league/local tour events, mixed with a handful of the highest top ranked pros from the 8 event tour, to determine a true U.S. champion.

Afterward, only the top handful of winners of the ' final championship' will remain at "pro status" and get to keep playing on the pro tour the following year.

This will allow for players to get "bumped" from the pro tour if they don't place high enough in the end, and for a newbie to take his or her place.

The whole system also allows for any given player, in theory, to go from playing in his or her local bar, to the American championship finals, in one single year, for a minimal investment.

In other words, a real opportunity for the average player to advance thru the ranks and make money as a pro.

------------------------------------------

Publicity and Distribution

To whomever produces the above mentioned "tour" and American Championship, whether it be a governing body of pool, a private individual, or a company:

Whatever you plan to spend on the event(s), you should double that, and plan to spend an equal amount, if not more, on professional production and MARKETING of your broadcast events and championship. After all, this tour could very much bring U.S. pool back into the spotlight if done properly. Likewise proper marketing is one of the few ways to guarantee a return on your investment. I cannot stress this enough.

Simply taping or "streaming" the matches will NOT be enough. The production should be HD, Stereo, graphics and music, aka broadcast quality 100%

There needs to be pre-match and post-match interviews, woofing snippets, promotional commercials on social media, biographic back-stories, player profiles, and an ongoing storyline just like a movie or tv series.

All of this for each of the 8 regular season events, and one championship at the end.

-----------------

Funding?
Prize Pools and Video production costs?

It should be remembered that it takes money to make money. And in the case of pro pool, so much of the proper infrastructure is not there, it will be both time consuming and costly, at first. Not so much once everything is in place.

The players and promoters association and the governing body can and should fund themselves. Cross-funding creates conflict of interest.

This is where the involvement of the "masses" and the leagues etc can really pay off, figuratively and literally.

If, for example, "most" of the major amateur leagues out there decided to get sanctioned, such as the APA, you might easily have 25,000 players involved.

And if, for example, you asked every player to pay a small 5$ registration fee, you'd have $125,000 to work with.

$125K could fund much of the prize funds for the entire pro tour, or could cover video production costs and part of the prize funds.

(ppv)Video coverage of the events can bring some decent revenue as well, as long as its super cheap and marketed heavily, but the bigger money maker is viewership based sponsor money.

How to get tons more viewers overnight and impress the hell out of your potential sponsors? - Even sponsors outside of pool?

Remember the potential 25,000 league and tour players?
Remember the $5 they paid for registration?

In return for the 5$, every registered player and association member, amateur or pro, gets to watch the entire pro tour and championship for free.

Now instead of a few hundred viewers that are mad about how much they paid, you have (potentially) thousands and thousands of viewers, generating much more ad revenue and much happier sponsors.

---------------

Favorable publicity and respect ( aka huge fan base) cannot be gained without professional pool getting fixed first. Don't waste time or money trying to impress the general public yet.
 
...1. Set up a pro players organization with modest dues.
Players answer to a governing body and promoters association.

2. Set up or "fix" the governing body, to set and enforce standards and keep records.
Governing body answers to player's association and promoters association.

3. Set up a promoter's association. (if the governing body isn't promoting events)
Promoters/venue owners answer to players association and governing body....

....Favorable publicity and respect ( aka huge fan base) cannot be gained without professional pool getting fixed first.

Very true..Your last sentence, was really all you really needed to say!..We all have our pet ideas, on how to make pro pool successful..But nothing can ever materialize, without first implementing a workable "Professional Players Association"!..All other successful sports realized that, years ago!..Why has pool never been able to accomplish that seemingly simple objective? :confused:

PS..Pool is enjoyed by millions, in this country.(and world wide) Do we really need an inactive BCA, or a movie every few yrs. to hype it?..Makes one wonder, are all us pool lovers and players, just dumber than boxers, bowlers or tennis players? (lets hope not) :eek:
 
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Revenue Timing

From it's rise in popularity (in the U.S.) up until the 1940s and 50s, professional billiards was cultivated, organized, managed and marketed primarily by billiard companies. Brunswick in particular. And then for a short while by the BCA. But neither anymore.

Favorable publicity and respect ( aka huge fan base) cannot be gained without professional pool getting fixed first. Don't waste time or money trying to impress the general public yet.

I could go for a lot of this. I might find something else later but I think you would need 1. An Angel to step forward to fund it during its inception and 2. Some serious negotiations with the Pool League Associations.....which may not care.

If they do not care and are fine taking care of themselves I think we find ourselves right back in the same boat we were in to start off with.

You would think they would but I'm just not sure they will.

You may have to figure out a way to make it in their best interest.
 
I could go for a lot of this. I might find something else later but I think you would need 1. An Angel to step forward to fund it during its inception and 2. Some serious negotiations with the Pool League Associations..which may not care.

The bottom line is still----> "Nothing can ever materialize, without first implementing a workable "Professional Players Association"!..Until that happens, what are you 'negotiating', and why?..

PS. Also note, the Pool Leagues, (CSI, APA, etc.) have always been well organized to deal with various issues!..We still aren't :rolleyes:
 
The bottom line is still----> "Nothing can ever materialize, without first implementing a workable "Professional Players Association"!..Until that happens, what are you 'negotiating', and why?..

PS. Also note, the Pool Leagues, (CSI, APA, etc.) have always been well organized to deal with various issues!..We still aren't :rolleyes:

Could always "negotiate" with Sigel.

RBL
 
Agree

The bottom line is still----> "Nothing can ever materialize, without first implementing a workable "Professional Players Association"!..Until that happens, what are you 'negotiating', and why?..

PS. Also note, the Pool Leagues, (CSI, APA, etc.) have always been well organized to deal with various issues!..We still aren't :rolleyes:

I agree. Lots of things to talk about in that association.
 
Since all forms of play need a place. The key to getting this ship to the Big Pool is, create a room owners association that could support a board directed employee to get the ball rolling. From within this group, allot of control, organization and creative ideas would surface. These in turn would be administered by the board of directors representing the USA room members. You'd do well to offer a nice room owners package, with gifts/cues/scuffers/chalk/flow charts/ etc from the mfg. And this employee would go fetch. This is how business is supposed to flow, give and get. Corporate write offs are a cost of doing business.
 
The bottom line is still----> "Nothing can ever materialize, without first implementing a workable "Professional Players Association"!..Until that happens, what are you 'negotiating', and why?..

PS. Also note, the Pool Leagues, (CSI, APA, etc.) have always been well organized to deal with various issues!..We still aren't :rolleyes:

The associations and the prize pool would have to be financially attractive enough to hold members. Anybody can start a pool tournament and if the money is attractive enough it would siphon off players. You would have to have promoters and players sign legal binding exclusivity agreements to the associations.
 
Since all forms of play need a place. The key to getting this ship to the Big Pool is, create a room owners association that could support a board directed employee to get the ball rolling. From within this group, allot of control, organization and creative ideas would surface. These in turn would be administered by the board of directors representing the USA room members. You'd do well to offer a nice room owners package, with gifts/cues/scuffers/chalk/flow charts/ etc from the mfg. And this employee would go fetch. This is how business is supposed to flow, give and get. Corporate write offs are a cost of doing business.

My plan to straighten out pool addresses all the issues you listed.
 
The bottom line is still----> "Nothing can ever materialize, without first implementing a workable "Professional Players Association"!..Until that happens, what are you 'negotiating', and why?..

PS. Also note, the Pool Leagues, (CSI, APA, etc.) have always been well organized to deal with various issues!..We still aren't :rolleyes:

FOR ONCE...we agree on something, and that's exactly what my plan addresses....fixing Pro pool first, then with the same system....Semi Pro, advanced, and last but not least....the intermediate players.
 
I could go for a lot of this. I might find something else later but I think you would need 1. An Angel to step forward to fund it during its inception and 2. Some serious negotiations with the Pool League Associations.....which may not care.

If they do not care and are fine taking care of themselves I think we find ourselves right back in the same boat we were in to start off with.

You would think they would but I'm just not sure they will.

You may have to figure out a way to make it in their best interest.

I hear ya Robin.
And just so you know, I don't believe for a second that my schpiel is the end-all-be-all solution. But I could not explain any one part without some context to the other parts etc etc...

The big leagues (APA) could easily blow off getting sanctioned, but their players would be pissed once they knew the invitation was out there, and the APA turned it down.
Which would ultimately drive players to the leagues that ARE sanctioned.

LoL
I'm not trying to feed you a pipe dream, just think about it realistically.
Let's say you operate a 200 player local tour, and I call you up one day and say :

" if you change a few rules of your tour, so we're all playing the exact same game, and pay a very reasonable sanction fee, your event will be sanctioned and protected, and the winner will be invited to the American championship.

And, there will be a limited number of qualifying events, so your tour will become much more valuable to those trying to qualify for the championship, not just this year but every year. That's reliable money.

And, your winning player will be representing and advertising your league or tour, at the championship as they play and appear on camera or in interviews. Lots of great publicity.

Are you in? "
 
Thats what I was talking about

I hear ya Robin.
And just so you know, I don't believe for a second that my schpiel is the end-all-be-all solution. But I could not explain any one part without some context to the other parts etc etc...

The big leagues (APA) could easily blow off getting sanctioned, but their players would be pissed once they knew the invitation was out there, and the APA turned it down.
Which would ultimately drive players to the leagues that ARE sanctioned.

LoL
I'm not trying to feed you a pipe dream, just think about it realistically.
Let's say you operate a 200 player local tour, and I call you up one day and say :

" if you change a few rules of your tour, so we're all playing the exact same game, and pay a very reasonable sanction fee, your event will be sanctioned and protected, and the winner will be invited to the American championship.

And, there will be a limited number of qualifying events, so your tour will become much more valuable to those trying to qualify for the championship, not just this year but every year. That's reliable money.

And, your winning player will be representing and advertising your league or tour, at the championship as they play and appear on camera or in interviews. Lots of great publicity.

Are you in? "

Mr. Bond,
That's what I'm talking about when I say you have to make in their best interest to cooperate and it sounds good.

Another areas of concern would be sponsorship which I think is bassackwards in respect to what is being done now.

Right now Ive seen corporate sponsorships given out in the form of product to tour directors, then the tour directors lay the product out at events and also ask the room owners to throw in monies for the tournaments.

To me this is utter BS when you consider the room owners have to work all weekend just to barely break even. The idea that there is a room owner association in this might allow things to work properly. When I say properly why couldn't that same product be given to the room owner to save him money and to provide money for adding to tournaments? As long as a report were given to the sponsor that this was being done and copy of the event flyers where it was done.

Years ago I don't remember where but I wrote something to the fact that the room owner is a Deity in our world. If it doesn't work out for him then its not going to work out for us. What you see now are rooms in chaos over the price of real estate and the labor required to deliver the goods to even make pool possible to deliver to the general public.

If the promoter was taking the money he was getting off the products and that was going into the prize fund and he was helping the room owner have the tournaments that would be one thing but I haven't seen that happen. The sponsorship is just not there in this manner.

I will say that I've seen league system cooperate on that level at least once as they did with team challenges we ran at Chandleys. They advertised the challenges to their respective teams and they came in and played because it was done for them. In order to gain entry you had to have an APA rating established and you because you did you were able to not only bring your current team, but you could also build a team from other teams of people because everyone was an established ranking within that league.

Now if you also could integrate Fargorate in this equation it would provide a double check to the rating system and everyone across all league systems would have a commonality that would allow them to compete with one another.

You do all of that.....and you start to have a winner in my opinion.

Nice ideas. You have to have the base involved and you have to build the numbers of people involved to large numbers to get the sponsors attention without it we might just have another nice system someone could abrogate towards their own interests and then it would break down.

.
 
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